SGOTM 04 - Team VQ

[Cosmichail]

Ok you changed my mind as I am a production nut. I believe foremost that production is everything even above teching. One can out gun an AI that way even if they are more advanced. So I agree let's go for it and move 2 north as recommended by our industrious leader.

I also wish to described as "Evil Lord" and if there are so many pros here what the hell happened in SGOTM03 (just bugging you guys but we need to get more focus as a team)

I am all for namliaM leading the team but please some ground rules:

NO AUTOMATION OR QUEUEING OF ANY KIND.....only exception is when it's specifically discussed such as queueing a wonder. Personally when there is a lot of queueing it throws the game off for me. Even the SG rules state that no automation should be used or queueing as a courtesy to the next player.

A definite strategtic plan outlined by the leader which all team members must provide input so we all know what page we are on. After discussion a definite plan in place before playing.

Again don't get me wrong we did fine on SGOTM03 (in the beginning) but good for SP play not SGOTM and we need to improve our team effort. I feel that all of us need to provide input and debate any suggestions made by our leader. He makes a good argument for moving 2 north and has convinced me.

I am better playing Mon-Thur and Fri/Sat/Sun are generally bad days for me. And to clarify my timezone is -5 gmt. (Eastern standard Canada)

Here's what I recall of the players:

namliaM -- industrious leader -- +1 gmt
Greyfox -- Chinese warlord -- +8 gmt
Maquis -- De Sade -- -7 gmt
Bobrath -- Swedish meatball -- -5 gmt (I think please clarify)
Healium -- Gaseous analomy -- not sure please provide
Scowler -- Mr Understatement -- gmt
Frankcor-- Lives where Caesar did -- -5 gmt

So that is what I recall and gives us some idea of when and where we are for turns etc.

 

[GreyFox]

Sorry, I still say no to moving 2 north. namliaM's argument is on the plains hill partially covered by fog. We have enough prod as I see it. Remember we are financial, we need a well-balanced capitol for bureaucracy to work optimally. If bureaucracy is too far away for you, consider than the early production. Moving 2N destroy a +3 hammer site. Pre-mining, I don't see any tile that will give us the early production of 3 hammers.

--

 

[Cosmichail]

I think we should chance it as there is another blue circle on that plains hill which could mean there are more resources north of it. I suspect too that it's a couple of plains hills in fog and perhaps beyond that coast. I am not too crazy about wrecking the plains forest though but prefer production and there will be plenty of commerce there still.

Here's a what if but what if there are more sea resources north of those hills. Perhaps moving scout in that direction to expose it more might help. Our site now isn't that bad but isn't the best either. It's food rich but lacking in any luxury resources or stone/marble. Let's take that chance and see first what's there and then decide although it will will take two turns (that's including the turn he can do right now) for the scout to check it out. I find moving a settler in the beginning can sometimes have profound benefits rather than just settling in place.

Also I am in favour of an early religion this time. If we work the lake we should be able to get Hinduism. The long term benefits of Hinduism especially if we grab something like Oracle will help throughout the game for money/culture. (getting oracle and then getting shrine). Having two religions is even better but I'd be happy with one.

I know that is a contradiction moving settler and try for religion but I think we can pull it off with the financial trait. Ragnar is an amazing civ and of course one might consider the Great lighthouse but it might not help unless we can be linked by sailing to other civs. The settings give us a clue too as to what we can expect. Fractal/medium sea level means lots of land so it is likely we are sharing this landmass. Lots of land means AI will do much better than last SGOTM as I find typically happens in SP games. One reason why religion is good is to keep borders expanding enough to gobble up land for ourselves until we need it or have enough coin to settle. Five cities and one will find themselves broke so culture spreading gives us room to go ergo two religions are even better.

My ideas and plan to be considered of course:

Build: first build of course should be work boat once we settle

Tech: Going for early religion is doable but there is a risk but the benefits long lasting. Once we do that we will need mining fairly soon but time it for the worker to build the necessary mines. AH/Agriculture will be needed too soon for food development although this isn't as paramount in the beginning because of happy which we sadly very much lack. Means capitol won't allow more than 5-6 happy. I imagine the whipmeister will definitely want to get BW soon for the whipping of course.

Possible order: Mysticism/Polytheism/mining/BW/AH Maybe we get lucky and pop some huts with tech but wouldn't hold my breath.

Long term: build extra work boat for scouting the landmass asap. Scouting is very important in this game as we need to know where everybody is to make informed decision.

Strong production capitol will get us some wonders worth having like the Oracle so once we get mining the proposed site by namliaM is worth considering. I also like the idea of moving up some to make room for a second coastal city. Ragnar strength is in coastal cities especially so the more the better. The question of course what is south of us maybe more land.

The two Dutchman are in agreement. Ok somebody call Ripley's believe or not....

 

[GreyFox]

I am still not convinced. You say you are "not crazy with wrecking the forested plain hills" yet you go on to say you prefer production. Contradictory. Re: strong production capitol city, I maintain 3 hills is good enough for a capitol. Ignore commerce in capitol when you are financial at your own peril. I have no counter against arguments like "what if" and "sometimes have profound benefits", perhaps except "pigs fly".

I am fine if people think it is worth the possible 2 turns lost, but based on the info I have, I wouldn't do it. (By the way the worst case is not if the 3 fog tiles are coast, the worst case is they are desert or tundra). And you can kiss Hinduism goodbye with the 2 turns lost.

The best argument against settling in site, which thus far I see no one brings up, is the ocean tiles. By moving 2N, we exchange those ocean tiles for something that chances are would be better than ocean tiles.

In summary, I am fine with moving 2N if most of the team members think so. But I advise against it.

--

 

[bobrath]

Couple words that resonated with me from the above discussions:

Financial leader

From my pov, we need to be the far and away tech leaders in this game. Why? To share that knowledge out asap to encourage Ghandi to start building spaceship parts. If we are the tech leaders, we will have an advantage in tech advantaged wars when we decide to slow down other civs. Yes, you need production to do that, but all the production in the world won't help muskets stop tanks.

My vote is to found in place - it gives us the jump on teching to an early religion and all the beneficial benefits from that. If there truly is a better site 2 north, then that still means there's a good site 3/4 moves north for our second city.

 

[Cosmichail]

I am still not convinced. You say you are "not crazy with wrecking the forested plain hills" yet you go on to say you prefer production. Contradictory. Re: strong production capitol city, I maintain 3 hills is good enough for a capitol.

Contradictory until we have mining. I don't think 3 hills is enough as we are in for a typical monarch type warlords game where AI will have lots of room to grow. If we could look and decide first that indeed it would be better.

Right now all I can see that we gain a hammer by doing not worth it. Losing two turns wouldn't affect Hinduism once we get a net in place/and or work lake. I do think there are more plains hills up there and that's where we get the extra production. Should there be two then even better which would give us 5 hills, three of them plains. Enough food to work them all but limited by happy. (PS plains hill yield 4 hammers each and grass 1 food 3 hammers)

Hypothetical move: 12 hammers plains and 6 hammers grass after mining possible but need more intel
settle in place : 10 hammers after mining

The first scenario will pump out units/wonders a lot faster and our second city can certainly serve as a commerce site.

I have no counter against arguments like "what if" and "sometimes have profound benefits", perhaps except "pigs fly".

I find your lack of faith disturbing. Pigs do fly by the way. I moved my settler in a SP and found a lot more resources elsewhere but lost some 2 turns. Best move I ever made as I wasn't happy with the original site. I don't like this site all that much other than food. I'd rather loose 2 turns and see what else we could get rather than just settle right away and find out we could have done better. On the other hand the pessimist argument of desert/tundra is certainly worth consideration.

If we could tell where we are on the map (since the resources don't help us with that if I recall that doens't work anymore) we could also get a feel where the tundra is to know our position. If we are in high north than it could be tundra. If we are in south then not likely tundra there so now a possibililty of desert.

Take a chance or just settle in place. That is the question. I will go with team consensus as usual but like the idea of a strong production capitol.

I doubt that the team will go with religion more likely go for BW asap or sailing so I am not counting all that much on Hinduism. I just find personally on maps with lots of land AI will out settle you fast and with religion you can landgrab without having to settle.

So settle in place as that is the safe thing to do. Move the settler and take a chance maybe loose maybe win. Just like gambling 50/50 odds. I like gambling and seeing that we are up against teams that are quite strong I say we take a chance on religon and moving.

I just find when namliaM has something in his gut he usually gets it right on. The last two SGOTM's prove that. I am one that trusts his instincts most of the time and feel it's one of those times. Too bad the scout is sitting so far south and I don't like what I see south seeing that mountain there.

 

[namliaM]

I would like to remind folks that this map is a "Gyathar special" thus normal things tend to be not so normal.

Even on a gyathar special map I dont think one will find Tundra and dessert this close to the jungle... I am 99.9% sure of the tiles I gave earlier, them 4 tiles are 2 Plains hills, a Plains and a grassland. The only unsure part is the 3 new tiles beyond those... Theoretical they could be dessert (on a gyathar special not in a regular game IMHO) on the other hand they could all 3 contain Gems or Gold. We just dont know...

Just because I am called the whip meister... I had a look at the whip... and moreso since Bob noted it is a scary site for whipping, lets look at the total picture....
One thing I know is that Plains hills suck at Food=>Hammer conversion, Grass hills are MUCHO better at 1:3, Plains hills suck at 1:2. Plains are even worse at 1:1

Both sites have:
CC +2f/2h
Clams +3f (netted + Lighthouse)
Corn +4f (Farm + Irrigation)
Pigs +4f
Lake +1f (Lighthouse)
2+3+4+4+1 = +14food/turn
The original site has 2 plains hills and a grass hill = -5 food/11 hammers.
The north site has 2 additional Plains hills and a plains = -5/+9.

Now this is the food=>Hammer conversion for the whip
- --Food Bar--- Granary---1 pop--- + FPT ---2 pop--- + FPT ---3 pop--- + FPT
- - - -- -20 - - - - 10---
01 - - - -23 - - - - 12---
02 - - - -26 - - - - 13--- 3,46 --- 0,80
03 - - - -29 - - - - 15--- 3,00 --- 0,87
04 - - - -32 - - - - 16--- 2,81 --- 1,00 --- 2,90 --- 1,87
05 - - - -35 - - - - 18--- 2,50 --- 1,07 --- 2,65 --- 2,07
06 - - - -38 - - - - 19--- 2,37 --- 1,20 --- 2,43 --- 2,27 --- 2,55 --- 3,27
07 - - - -41 - - - - 21--- 2,14 --- 1,27 --- 2,25 --- 2,47 --- 2,33 --- 3,53
08 - - - -44 - - - - 22--- 2,05 --- 1,40 --- 2,09 --- 2,67 --- 2,18 --- 3,87
09 - - - -47 - - - - 24--- 1,88 --- 1,47 --- 1,96 --- 2,87 --- 2,01 --- 4,13
10 - - - -50 - - - - 25--- 1,80 --- 1,60 --- 1,84 --- 3,07 --- 1,90 --- 4,47
11 - - - -53 - - - - 27--- 1,67 --- 1,67 --- 1,73 --- 3,27 --- 1,78 --- 4,73
12 - - - -56 - - - - 28--- 1,61 --- 1,80 --- 1,64 --- 3,47 --- 1,69 --- 5,07
13 - - - -59 - - - - 30--- 1,50 --- 1,87 --- 1,55 --- 3,67 --- 1,59 --- 5,33
14 - - - -62 - - - - 31--- 1,45 --- 2,00 --- 1,48 --- 3,87 --- 1,52 --- 5,67
15 - - - -65 - - - - 33--- 1,36 --- 2,07 --- 1,41 --- 4,07 --- 1,44 --- 5,93
All of the above is assuming a granary is in place, if not... double the food requirement and half the yield.

Meaning at size 6 whipping for 2 pop you convert at a rate of 1:2.4 which is more favorable than working a plains hill. The only thing you need to make sure of is you have enough food to regrow your city, at size 6 whip 2 end up at size 4 needing 16 + 18 = 34 food to regrow to 6 inside of 15 turns. Or +2.26 food per turn.
The latest point where whipping is (slightly) more favorable than whipping is size 8 where you need 19+21 = 40 food to regrow inside of 15 turns or +2.67fpt.

All this means is that the original site at size 7 and over is +9f/11 hammers, which is way overdoing the food department any size over 7 we add a 2 food tile thus +food stays the same. Which in turn means we can sustain specialists while keeping whipping and producing.
The north site at size 10 we work all the hills and plains + all the food tiles at +4 food.
So on the whipping department there is not a problem at the north site making the whipping discussion mute as we can whip for 2 pop every 15 turns on either site.

So what we are left with is the higher commerce for the Original site vs the higher production of the North site. The north site will sustain (atleast) 4 cottages on the grasslands + plains. Add a potential 3 for the 3 unknown tiles = 7.
The original site has room for 7 cottages.
??? Same # of cottages and more hills ???
Yes, cause we potentially are trading 3 water tiles (2 ocean, 1 coast) for 3 land tiles.

All in all I am still in favour of moving, now more so than ever before. I am allmost sure we can find another GP farm than our capitol, but not so sure we can find another (big) production city.
HOWEVER there is one more thing to consider....
EARLY production + food, becuase all this is longer term.
Early on we will not have the benifit of the 1/2 grass forrest hill and the 0/3 plains hill, thereby delaying the workboat and worker somewhat (adding to the early 1 turn delay). I will give the ol' excel sheet a run for its money to see what this boils down to.

 

[healium]

ok first to clear up the time zone and playtime: GMT +1, vienna by the way. i can be found in front of the computer most of the day, but rarly between 8am and 2pm, thats the time i am sleeping. any day of the week.

i have absolutely no experience with delaying the first city more than one turn. i usually settle in place or move once. it up to you to judge how much we will suffer from the delay in the long run. namliaM what does your exel sheet say about our chances for an early religion? to me the option of having it is still very attractive. but having real production power in the capital is also something i really like. so count my vote as undecided. if the calculating pros think its a good idea to move and there is even a gut feeling envolved i am fine with scouting out the north.

 

[GreyFox]

Sleeping from 8am to 2pm???? Who are you in RL? Bruce Wayne???

My point about those 3 tiles being possibly desert or tundra is: we should simply discard all those conjecture about what tiles they are. They are simply unknown, period. Don't bring in arguments like they may contain iron/silk/gems, and I won't bring in counter-arguments like they may be desert or black-holes (which are newly Gyaathar-created tiles that sucks our settler once he move to 2N, there by creating a record-shattering fastest conquest lost at turn 4000BC).

Who said anything about GP-Farm in our capitol? That is a no-no. Always.

I am all for a productive capitol. But never at the expense of commerce when we are also financial. You can be very productive, but if I can reach Literature 10 turns earlier than you can, who do you think would build the Great Library? The key is balance. Don't go productive for the sake of being productive. It's useless without commerce.

Having said all that, I agree that the 2N site isn't all that commerce-starved. It still has sufficient coastal tiles to make it an early commerce-rich site.

So don't have to convince me that 2N is a better site. I wouldn't go there, but I would give it to you that it is a viable move.

 

[healium]

Sleeping from 8am to 2pm???? Who are you in RL? Bruce Wayne???

well, lets just say that working in an art academy has unconventional benefits! actually today i am breaking the rule and slept at night.

i see a point in the post of grey fox concerning the commerce. i am more undecided than ever about the "move or settle" issue, but i have one thing to remark: if we decide to move and take a risk lets move the settler and not the scout to the 2N position and maybe only lose one turn.

 

[bobrath]

I'm willing to accept settling 2N of current, I still think the 2 turn loss is a definite negative and as a Financial civ, moving our capital to a lesser economic site feels somehow wrong.


Hold up.... Staring at the starting screen shot, I had a minor brain pop. Current site has 5 coastal sites while 2N has the potential for 7 coastal site (depends on if that east jutting land is a 1 or more tile point). So we do lose the cottage sites with a move, but have potential better water based finance. Remember tho that once we learn how to build cottages, we'll want to have a city ready in the south to take advantage and get ours growing asap.

So Vikings-On-A-Lake it is. Hydra anyone?


-6gmt btw (US Central - but with the upcoming daylight savings time change... well the states are screwy)

 

[healium]

if we settle on the 2N (if it turns out nice) it should be just one turn we loose, right?

 

[bobrath]

1 to walk there and then settle on turn 2 which means it "comes on line" on 3rd turn.

 

[Cosmichail]

I like the idea of hydra but I don't think we can accomplish it by moving 2N. We definitely should get a religion this time around as even if we don't accept it, we can use it for many other things such as temples/monasteries and priests for GPriest.

Again Buddhism is tough to get on Monarch warlords as even on Prince I have seen AI get it 12 turns just when I am in polytheism about 2-3 turns. We have to remember that this will play much differently than last SGOTM as the AI will likely have room to grow. 7 civs on a standard map fractal medium sea level is going to be problematic. They will spawn like aliens. Fortunately Gandhi is one of them but he is generally the least liked for some reason. Seems every game I ever played lots of civs constantly ask to go to war/discontinue deals with Gandhi.

I becoming torn now about moving 2N for various reasons. The two SG pro's aren't exactly thrilled about it but if there are coastal tiles beyond those hills then they won't be utilized and leaves less space for a second coastal city. From what I can see south isn't that good with a mountain there and likely more further south. I am willing to take a chance on moving 2N as two prime coastal cities are much better than one. It's just loosing 2 turns at the beginning hurts in a number of ways especially in getting Buddhism. The hydra does wonders for landgrabbing but the second city won't benefit so I would prefer to see the second city have a religion too just for culture and shrine.

Bottom line:
Disadvantage
Hydra not possible with moving 2N loose too many turns. (unless we are really lucky and all remaining AI's don't have the starting techs)
Loosing 2 turns is loss of beakers/commerce and I am sure namliaM is coming up with excel sheet soon to prove it's all worth it.

Advantages
Moving 2N allows more space for second coastal city which is beneficial being Ragnar.
Moving 2N will give capitol extra production and with bureaucracy that will be even better.

Being that we are democratic we should just put forward a vote and leave it at that:
So far:
Healium - undecided
Bobrath - yay or nay?
Greyfox - yay or nay and I suspect nay
Maquis - yay or nay
namliaM - yay
Scowler - ?
Cosmic - yay

We don't have the consensus on moving so we should make sure that the team is in agreement or at least 4 players agree to move. If that doesn't happen I'd say we stay put.

 

[namliaM]

First the save

Spoiler Upload Log :

Turn 1, 3970 BC: Nidaros has been founded.

Turn 12, 3640 BC: You have discovered Mysticism!
Turn 12, 3640 BC: Buddhism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 18, 3460 BC: The villagers give you gold! You have received 44 gold!

Turn 20, 3400 BC: Barbarian's Wolf (1.00) vs VQ's Scout (2.90)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 20, 3400 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: (Feature: +20%)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: (Class Animal Combat: +100%)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: VQ's Scout is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 20, 3400 BC: VQ's Scout has defeated Barbarian's Wolf!

Turn 25, 3250 BC: Hinduism has been founded in Nidaros!
Turn 25, 3250 BC: You have discovered Polytheism!

Turn 26, 3220 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 26, 3220 BC: VQ converts to Hinduism!
Turn 26, 3220 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 33, 3010 BC: The villagers have given you the secrets of a new Technology!
Turn 33, 3010 BC: You have discovered Sailing!
Turn 33, 3010 BC: You have discovered Mining!
Turn 33, 3010 BC: You have trained a Worker in Nidaros. Work has now begun on Stonehenge.

Turn 35, 2950 BC: Barbarian's Wolf (1.00) vs VQ's Scout (2.90)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 35, 2950 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: (Feature: +20%)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: (Class Animal Combat: +100%)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: VQ's Scout is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: VQ's Scout is hit for 12 (76/100HP)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 35, 2950 BC: VQ's Scout has defeated Barbarian's Wolf!

Turn 36, 2920 BC: Genghis Khan adopts Slavery!

Turn 39, 2830 BC: Nidaros will grow to size 3 on the next turn
Turn 39, 2830 BC: Nidaros's cultural boundary is about to expand.

After just 5 turns I meet our friend Gandhi, who is just some 8 or 9 tiles away

I spot the Goody hut and offcourse pick that up! Netting us some gold, the goody hut across the water I am betting is blocked from us as the water is likely so seperate us from Gandhi. So I turn the Scout South...
Just after switching from Myst to Poly the familiar ring of the founding of a religion comes up *dag nabit* I think... but bless us it is buddism.

After staring down and defeating a Panther and a lion (on seperate turns) our scout runs across yet another Tribal village, this time yielding a little more gold.
Next I had a dicision, faster worker with nothing to do or slow down the worker and get Poly faster?? *hmz* not a hard choice there... Work the LAKE!

Our now Woodsman 1 Scout finds some borders after killing a pack of wolves (in a forrest) only to find yet more animals. The tile south east of those lions have yet more Lions, so the scout runs for cover on the other side of Khaaaaaaaaaaan culture, where he finds another goody hut....

This hut gives us sailing while we are one turn away from mining. My thinking on mining was to double up on Masonry, but I deside we need AH more right now, so that is up next...

20:20 looking back, maybe I should have researched AH before Mining. Food is power in the early game... But the research of mining would complete together with the worker, giving him something to do. Where AH or Agriculture would be late, so I selected Mining....

This is what we know of the world so far...



For the folks out there paying attention, the lake in the earlier pictures was south of Nidaros. This is what Nidaros' BFC looks like...

Me? I like our capitol very much, but I dont know if I like what happened. If the capitol had stayed where it was, the pigs could have gone to the Gold/Fish site which as it is now... is low on food

FYI, I put one turn into Stonehedge to grow to size 2 after the workboat....

Edit: I crossposted with Cosmic, I thought we had a consesus (sort of) 2 for and 2 "not opposed" which is why I went ahead and played... sorry if I moved to fast

 

[Cosmichail]

Well what's done is done and well played namliaM. Nice getting sailing and having Gandhi so nearby is going to be a pain or a help whichever way you look at it. Having the mongols south I don't like being creative and we'd better get a second city out soon and try to contain him from taking any of those precious lands.

Our capitol indeed will be a production powerhouse and we will have enough commerce. I think we will need those berserkers very soon. Khaaaaaaaaaaan we come for you......

EDIT: I'd rather you move fast then wait another few days. 2nd EDIT: DUH I see it's Genghis we'd better get settlers out soon as he will be a spawn monster being imperialistic.

 

[Maquis]

I agree, what's done is done. I do think that we're off to a decent start. We all knew Gandhi would be close by...

So, we do have a confirmed roster?

namliaM -- Started!
Greyfox -- Up!
Maquis -- On deck
Bobrath
Healium
Scowler

Or do we want to swap Bobrath and Healium? Makes no difference to me.

As for a plan, I do believe we should push our expansion south, to block off GK... and eventually take him out?

 

[bobrath]

I think we still need to scout some more before we make solid war plans. Yes, we do need to choke off Khan's expansion into our territory. Course if we have a huge playground to the north, then it becomes less urgent.

 

[GreyFox]

I got the save ... congrats on founding Hindu, and the capitol turns out fine, with grasslands in the top-right corner of the BFC for some cottages, making it a very well-balanced capitol indeed.

The build order leaves a lot to be desired, however, since if the decision was to chase after the Dancing Goddess, a worker shouldn't be built so early with nothing to do, delaying the growth substantially. I would have gone with another scout after the workboat, then the worker.

--

Discussion on what I intend to do:

Research: AH > BW > Argi > Writing or IW or Archery (depending on barbs and copper appearance)

Build: Warrior (too much hammer invested, I will let it complete) > Scout > Warrior > Settler >

I will wait one-and-a-half day before playing (I would drop to 20~30 turns, or stopping when I think there is a decision to be made via team consensus).

==

 

[namliaM]

There is some 5 or 6 tiles of jungle down there which means a couple of things
1) Hell for expanding south
2) Barb heaven
3) Nice defencive bonus

I know we want the whip, but dont we want to go Masonry => Mono?

A second scout is that not a bit late now, soon barbs will start comming which is why I wanted the warrior? I hadnt really considered building a second scout, tho I think Greyfox you are right.... it would have opened up the north a bit...