SGOTM 04 - Team VQ

Had a look at the save and looks like that fish is very close to Gandhi. namliaM was suggesting for the gold we settle inland near corn I think. If we settled in that area then we need IW and get rid of the jungles.

Notice too we have marble south of us and Genghis has horses in his fatcross. Yikes..... Yes a Mongolian campaign is inevitable. Having Gandhi separated by mountains will keep him at a distance until we have grown somewhat. Of course he could easily traverse over by boat to our landmass. Even having a coastal city on that side wouldn't hurt to have the ability to send troops over quickly should Gandhi have another civ on the other side of him and he's under attack. Just a thought.

Didn't look to closely at the barb city but of course they get in way of our wanting the gems or gold. Is that city positioned good for taking or does it need to be razed?? Knowing barbs probably settled one tile from coast.

Have fun Bob...........
 
I dont like the idea of culture battling gandhi over those fish.
The fish gold site is also food poor I think... and has quite a bit of overlap with Nidaros.

It looks like we can put down 2 or 3 decent cities north of Nidaros if we choose... as well as grabbing the Gems and Gold sites. makes for atleast 5 cities...

What is the next build after the settler? Trading post/Axeman/Barracks/Settler (whipped for 2?)

Edit: Nice going fox, getting our Woodsman Scout eaten ! :yumyum:
 
IIRC we don't need a road to be hooked up to the copper... Its on a coast as is or city and since we have sailing then the sea acts as our road... Right?

@GreyFox, I gave you 2 hours to play and post! hee hee. Good stuff, great to see all the progress we've made so far.

Not playing until much later tonight (at least 10 hours), but more likely will play tomorrow depending on discussion that occurs.

I do want lots of feedback on the second city site. The aggresive player in me wants to reach far into Khan's territory now to try to disrupt his expansion by blocking his borders off. While the tech-monger likes that gold site.
 
MY quick n dirty dotmap (of ugly snap reflexes)
vq4bc2080mapst1.jpg


Light blue indicates my aggresive founding thoughts. Left Solid dot is an easy choice, right hollow dot loses the coastal bonus, but picks up a better location with the corn - and closes our borders sooner. Light blue pair is also across the jungle and that makes for a bit less reliance upon iron working for clearing duties right away. I do like snatching the marble from Genhis. Might make a difference if we figure out what's under that fog north of light blue

Red is the barb city and I think we should probably raise it and refound it one west. That is on a gem resource, but it puts us on the coast - key for ragnar. Since that barb city is in a jungle, I'd suggest postponing taking it until we have the work bandwidth to do some jungle clearing. We can camp a cover axe or two in the jungle next to it and be perfectly safe from barb excursions.

Dark blue solid picks up the corn, but hollow to the west is on a hill for better defense. Not sure being near Ghandi what we would like there. Solid is the better site from a pure resource point of view. Not sure about all those hills tho.

Anyway, feel free to rip it up!
 
I do think you need a road for the copper but I hope I'm wrong and learn something new.

As to second city site (sounds like comic team Akroyd/Belushi/Candy) I agree with namliaM, too food poor to work anything at gold site. Better to go after gems spices/sugar and corn. Somewhere in that area except barbs are there now. Maybe give our new axes something to do and get some experience. I like the idea of going right up Genghis's kazoo but last time I did that in SP prince game got DOW fairly soon thereafter. Plus we really need a super commerce city and benefit from Ragnar's trait. Capitol will pump out axes pretty fast but we are definitely going to need spears with him having horses in fatcross. Would like to see what he has in his city and where he built his 2nd city. (we can't see but I'm sure he must have built one by now)

Let's hope he has no copper. Looking forward to your turn and take your time Bob no hurry. (Well I'll be counting down 10 hours now or do you need 2 hours extra to play and post....:lol: )

EDIT: crossposted I like the barb city although it's one tile from coast maybe move 1 inland as the hollow blue dot (I think) will interfere with Gandhi's culture.
 
Geez an hour has already passed by so 9 hours now?:p

Also I do agree Ragnar should build coastal cities always but in the case of the gems/spices/sugar I think moving inland would serve us well being that we pickup the corn too. Yep jungle land unfortunately but like you say we don't have to rush that site and can choose elsewhere. Putting axes at barb city will help us keep an eye in the event Genghis gets frisky with barbs.

So as an alternate I'd say the hollow cyan dot but really don't like that desert south if that is what it is. We do get the marble but personally I think we really need a commerce site now but barb area is going to need lots of workers which will take time and if we settle there now won't do us much good for a while.

The other thing I like about moving 1 inland at barb site too is it will cut GK off from getting to north and take lands there but again I leave it in your hands what do Bob since I am torn about where to settle.
 
We definatly need the road on the copper! Come on bob, you must be kidding...

We could move the gold city 2 tiles east, that way it can take the pigs from Nadiros and the Corn, makes for some much needed food.

I like the hollow blue over the red (barb?) dot... but I am not sure about settling that coast... We would have to park some triremes on watch there to protect them nets... wasting ours and Gandhi's hammers... Maybe we should leave that entire coast to Gandhi?? On both sides that is....
Tho I hate losing that gems... guess we have to find some commerce someplace???

And there is the (obvious) sugar/horse city south of Nadira
 
I am reading this right... Bob's grabbed the save? That's alright with me, as long I know that and do not take it as well!

Last I saw from namliaM was:

namliaM -- +1 gmt (Actually +2 atm due to DST)
Greyfox -- +8 gmt
Maquis -- -7 gmt
Bobrath -- -5 gmt
Healium -- +1 gmt
Scowler -- gmt
Frankcor-- -5 gmt
Cosmichail -- -5gmt (I think)

I can take it anytime tonight or tomorrow, as it looks like I'll be snowed in again! (another foot on top of the 2 feet last weekend!)


I do like the idea of moving the gold site east... we want enough food to work all 3 mines... so having access to the Pigs is nice; I don't think there's enough food with just the corn to work all 3 mines... at least not till late.


As for where to settle, I don't think we need to rush to the gold site... but it may be wise to rush to block off GK. He'll be a b*tch to take out once he has Keshiks... Not sure if we could build up and have such an early war however?
 
We definatly need the road on the copper! Come on bob, you must be kidding...
I'm not kidding, but I'll be anxious to see. (being stuck at work sucks!)

We could move the gold city 2 tiles east, that way it can take the pigs from Nadiros and the Corn, makes for some much needed food.
Nice choice in that it would keep the 3 gold in its BFC.

I like the hollow blue over the red (barb?) dot... but I am not sure about settling that coast... We would have to park some triremes on watch there to protect them nets... wasting ours and Gandhi's hammers... Maybe we should leave that entire coast to Gandhi?? On both sides that is....
Tho I hate losing that gems... guess we have to find some commerce someplace???
With that site, I was pretty much ignoring the sea resources. I would only work "normal" sea squares and wouldn't contest the sea squares unless we got parked (which I've never seen an AI do). Post calendar hollow red dot would be a great site.

And there is the (obvious) sugar/horse city south of Nadira

Not sure I see the exact site... but the one I drew does look like a good second tier site in my new and improved (with commentary) dot map:
vq4bc2080mapnextdi9.jpg


Numbers indicate order I would found them - assuming we go either cyan OR dark blue. Barb city comes later (ie at our convenience). I don't know that conceding the west coast to Ghandi is necessary. We can still (imo) put cities there - they can act as magnets and lookouts for any invasion. But additionally, if we ever do decide to hand over cities they would benefit from immediate "inclusion" into the upgraded Indian empire.

As I was drawing the above dotmap, I got to be more and more enchanted with the cyan plan. Moving the eastern one inland avoids the desert and picks up some nice perks. Those two sites are viable sites in their own rights, but combined they seal off our peninsula. Yes, distance wise they are less optimal both from a maint and military pov, however they would bust a good chunk of fog. :p Would definitely need a good road from capital to cyan1 to speed any axes that we build in capital AND to provide the copper for self built axes (not to mention bringing marble to our capital).
 
I am reading this right... Bob's grabbed the save? That's alright with me, as long I know that and do not take it as well!
I think GreyFox is trying to set the stage for one day him handing another Nara off to me! I have not picked up the save Maquis, its all yours.

As for where to settle, I don't think we need to rush to the gold site... but it may be wise to rush to block off GK. He'll be a b*tch to take out once he has Keshiks... Not sure if we could build up and have such an early war however?

Sounds like you're leaning my way. Muah ha ha
 
Ok I got it; playing in a few hours. I'm still leaning toward settling south... anyone have a major objection? Looking at the save, GK may have some more land to the SW...
 
keshiks are not that bad if you have a few spears both on offence and defence ...

I am allmost sure that corn is going to be high on Khan's list of sites to settle... I dont think we can get there in time...

Cyan 2 looks low on food to me :(

Blue one is exactly where I thought... Dont forget we can put atleast 2 good cities maybe even 3 up north...
 
I'm fine with the south site cyan no 1 but do not like the gold blue #1. Why it takes the pigs away Nidaros which has a lot of plains hills to work so just clams/corn may not be enough unless you convince me otherwise.

Maquis don't be surprised when you try to settle Genghis isn't far away as he has to have settled second city by now being imperialistic. Although fog is gone we haven't scouted lately there I think and maybe some cities there already. If anything he has to have settled the wine/sheep area by now which still gives us room to settle on cyan no.1

Have fun Maquis and I remember Minnesota's weather well. Spent some time in Manitoba (another lovely place for weather) and travelled quite a bit to North Dakota/Minnesota. No wonder good hockey team there. We are getting freezing rain tomorrow oh goody.

EDIT: Blue site is great for that city I am just concerned what happens to Nidaros since it can't build any farms and only will have two food sources.
 
I think GreyFox is trying to set the stage for one day him handing another Nara off to me! I have not picked up the save Maquis, its all yours.

Huh? I don't think I had mention who's up after me.

Yeah, blame me for everything.

(whipped for 2?)

Please, NO WHIPPING (unless in really dire situation).

Our capitol has 5 hills and a copper. Currently we have max happiness of 6. If we need the production, simply assign all 6 pops to work on all 6 mines and you get at least 18 hammers per turn. In 3 turns we would have exceeded the amount of hammers a pop can give. Even if you can show me how the capitol can re-grow back to size 6 in 2 turns, it is still not worth it to incur the happiness penalty.

I think bob may be right in the no road is needed (I recall something like this in SGOTM1).

But we still need road for the horses.

--
 
Quick report here... mostly uneventful 20 turns...

Tech:
I switched us to Wheel instead of Ag. We will need to road to the copper to get it online.

Once Wheel was learned, I went for Ag. That came in on turn 18, so I picked Masonry next. Why? Maybe we want Marble? :)

If you didn't figure it out... I sent the settler south, to Cyan #1. Kahn has not expanded to the north at all (yet!)

Here's Upsala:

civ4screenshot0002pt0.jpg



Back in our capital, once the Trading Post was built, I got a little bold...

civ4screenshot0004kx1.jpg



Hopefully no one was opposed to an early wonder! (With our production, it was only 11 turns to complete!)

This of course will help all our cities' culture early on... as well as the GPP points (to get a later religion, or the shrine)

One other thing of note, Gandhi founded Judism. Hopefully that's a good sign that he's teching along just fine...

As I ended my turns, the workers were almost completed hooking up the horses, and still need to road the copper mine (yes, it needs to be roaded, we can't build axes yet!) They will need to farm the corn still as well.

Here's the (short!) turnlog:
Turn 72, 1840 BC: Uppsala has been founded.

Turn 74, 1780 BC: You have discovered The Wheel!

Turn 81, 1570 BC: You have discovered Agriculture!

Turn 82, 1540 BC: Judaism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 83, 1510 BC: VQ has completed Stonehenge!
Turn 83, 1510 BC: Gandhi adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 83, 1510 BC: Gandhi converts to Judaism!

And the save: VQ BC1450
 
Wow, we got stonehedge? That probably save us the trouble of monument.

Hmm ... I am surprise that GK has yet settle up ... it seems like there is more land to the south in which he must be settling first.

Don't know abt Masonry though ... we need writing and pottery ASAP ... and the capitol shouldn't be stagnanting ...

Overall our progress are looking good. :goodjob:

--
 
Wow taking 2 chances in 1 turnset... Grabbing the Hedge and walking out that far to get a new city... Nice going getting that city... and the free obelisks will help the borders... Do we want to go all the way and grab Cyan 2 as well before grabing blue 1 and 2 (or 2 and 1)??

Upsulla gets +6 food with the (farmed) corn, it has 15! one food tiles. Making it a total of -9 food, or pre-biology it is going to need 9 farms. 4 grassland cottages and 6 plains/grassland hill tiles/cottages? It can work 10 cottages, making quite a nice commerce city.
The marble hint is that intended to finger towards the most famous of marble based miracles TGL? If we want it do we want it in Upsulla or Nadiro? Or in the gold city?

About the gold city, we dont have to take the pigs if we dont want to...
The 3 gold hills + plains? Hill + 3 plains + 1 grass hill = -12 food.
The Corn gives +4 and CC +2 = 6 food, leaving us with 6 food to find somewhere, either farmed grassland/plains or the pigs + farms.

Nadiro needs 11 food to work all the tiles. CC (2) + Corn (4) + Lake (1) + Clams (3) = 10. So we just need the one farm to work all the tiles (excluding the pigs). And we can swap the pigs between the capitol (when it needs growing) and the Gold city when the capitol is maxed.

I think if you want to max out the usage of the Gold and NOT use the fish in that water between us and Gandhi the only and fastest way by far is to work the Pigs (+4) + Corn (Unirrigated! +3) for +9 food so we can work the 3 gold mines (-6 food). Without the pigs we can hardly work the gold mines pre-CS (chain farming) without moving the city and working the (netted => pillagable) fish.

Refering to the workers as "they" means we have atleast 2? One should start *under armed escort* start roading south towards Upsulla and blue 2. Maybe skipping the city spot for Blue 2 (if we plant that down soon) to allow road completion when the city is planted and saving worker turns. And/Or are we building a worker in Upsulla?
We should connect the cities ASAP as we are missing out on 2 commerce (traderoutes) per turn. Which is roughly an increase of 12.5% of our current commerce rate.

I think too we want Pottery over Masonry, it is going to be a while before those borders expand and we have a worker in Upsulla to start working the marble (if at all). If not for cottages, then we do need the Granary.
Also having Priesthood might be nice both for another Marble based wonder and the temples to outfit our religion with.

Re: (not) Whipping the capitol
Spoiler not whipping calculation :

a) Working all 6 mines yields 5 food (-7fpt)/25 hammers (4 plains hills (0/16) + Copper (2/4) + Grass hill (1/3) + CC (2/2) ).
The foodbar on size 6 can hold 20 + 3*6 = 38 food, meaning we can sustain this for 5 turns if the foodbar is nearly full at >35 food. 5 * 25 = 125

b) Then we go back to working food, Corn, Pigs and Clams. +4 +4 and +3(assuming lighthouse) respectively, adding the copper 2/4, CC 2/2, Grass hill 1/3 and Plains 0/4. Getting the city to +8fpt, taking again ~5 turns to fill the foodbar. 13hpt * 5 = 65 hammers.
Rince and repeat for a 10 turn cicle of 190 hammers for 30 turns (2 whips) = 570 hammers.

Actually ... due to b having +8 and a having -7 we can run a for a total of 8 and b a total of 7 turns out of the 15 and be (effectively) at 0 food.
8 * 25 + 7 * 13 = 291
For 30 turns that is 291 * 2 = 582

Not whipping Nadiro earns us 582 hammers in 30 turns alternating between all production and Max food/production.

Spoiler Whipping calculation :

Assuming a granary...
Size 4>5 requires a total of 32 food, Size 5>6 requires 19 food, Size 6>7 requires 21 food, 15 food (or more) added to the granary for a total of 32 (but less than 38!) food on size 6 will make the city grow from 4>5 the next turn if you whip for 2 pop.

In 15 turns we need to grow 15 food (required on size 6) plus 19 food to grow 5>6. For a total of 34 or an average of ~2.2666 fpt.
Or +2fpt and need an additional 4 someplace.
1 Turn at size 4: Clams (5/0) + CC (2/2) + Copper (2/4) + Grass hill (1/3) + Corn (6/0) = 16(+8f)/9
At size 5:
a) Corn (6/0) + Clams (5/0) + CC (2/2) + Copper (2/4) + Grass hill (1/3) + Plains hill (0/4) = 16(+4fpt)/13
b) Clams (5/0) + CC (2/2) + Copper (2/4) + Grass hill (1/3) + 2 Plains hill (0/8) = 16(-2fpt)/17
c) Pigs (6/0) + Corn (6/0) + Clams (5/0) + CC (2/2) + Copper (2/4) + Grass hill (1/3) = 22(+12)/9
d) Pigs (6/0) + Corn (6/0) + Clams (5/0) + CC (2/2) + Copper (2/4) + Plains hill (0/4) = 22(+11)/10

Idealy we want to end turn 15 at the required 32 food at size 6, but stay as long at size 5 as possible to keep from sustaining the unhappy face. Thus we have the 8 food carried over from size 4 and want to limit our food at size 5 to 34 so we dont grow. 8 + 16 (granary) = 24 so we can do
a 1 turn +4/13 Total: 28 food 22 hammers
b 9 turns -18/153 Total: 10/175

Changing to c to grow to the required size 6....
d 3 turns +33/30 Total: 43 (+8 to size 6)/215
At size 6 we run d except now we have a foodsurplus of only 9 due to the one unhappy. The granary brings 17 from size 5, requiring 1 turn at size 6 (1 unhappy). Total: 17 + 8 + 9 = 35 food / 225
Add the whip of 2 pop = 88 (IIRC it is not 90 due to a rounding error) = 303 hammers in 15 turns.
In 30 turns: 606 hammers.

While staying in size 5 as much as possible we offcourse get a lower (net) production. But after adding the 2 whips one can do in 30 turns, makes for a total of 606 hammers.

Tho both require -some- MM, the whipping (I think) is a little more MM switching tiles 3 times and whipping once every 15 turns.
Just working the tiles requires switching tiles once every ~5 turns to not grow or not starve.
The whip beats the not-whip situation by some >20 hammers per 30 turns or roughly a free archer. All in all the difference is less than I had expected from looking at the chart I made here on page 2.

Roster
namliaM -- +1 gmt (Actually +2 atm due to DST)
Greyfox -- +8 gmt
Maquis -- -7 gmt
Bobrath -- -5 gmt < UP
Healium -- +1 gmt > Get ready cause here it comes ;)
Scowler -- gmt
Frankcor-- -5 gmt
Cosmichail -- -5gmt (I think)

*** Disclaimer ***
Please let me know if you find any errors in the whipping thing...
 
Wow, totally didn't expect to get a wonder built! I do guess that means we have yet to send out a ship to explore tho... grumble.

I suspect my turns will be centered around units more then improvements. We've got to have barbs showing up in greater numbers, at least until we can fog bust efficiently.

Where to found our next city? I'd prefer cyan 2 to seal our border off from Khan's settlers. Yes he hasn't founded towards us and may have tons of room below him, but why not make sure we've carved out our own nice chunk of land in the mean time?

Teching towards pottery and writing next makes sense to me.

Any input on how many turns I should play?
 
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