SGOTM 04 - Trash Team

[patagonia]

If we're going to declare on GK soon, we'll need some spears to counter his inevitable swarm of Keshiks. 1-2 as stack protectors for our axes at any rate.

Thanks for clearing up the beaker decay issue cabert.

(I think GK won't trade a tech to us that Gandhi doesn't know as he's got a monopoly on it)

As far as your voyage of discovery and trading is concerned, we'll want to research priesthood ourselves (opens up monarchy and CoL to trade metal casting/compass for).

I just hope Gyathaar hasn't given the other 4 civs isolated starts - if he has they'll be backward which helps Gandhi, but we won't be able to trade techs with any of them.

 

[cabert]

If we're going to declare on GK soon, we'll need some spears to counter his inevitable swarm of Keshiks. 1-2 as stack protectors for our axes at any rate.

I've seen a few spears in the screenies.
Maybe they aren't well positioned yet.
Certainly we need more than 1-2.
I'd say we need 2 in every stack + a few as city defenders (there is a keshik and a chariot in avar). I recommand spears as favourite city garison for now.

(I think GK won't trade a tech to us that Gandhi doesn't know as he's got a monopoly on it)

certainly true
When we will trade optics to the foreigners, there will be more people taken into account in the monopoly tech check. Or GK will be dead

As far as your voyage of discovery and trading is concerned, we'll want to research priesthood ourselves (opens up monarchy and CoL to trade metal casting/compass for).

OK
construction, then priesthood is OK for me. then a few turns building up our cash?

I just hope Gyathaar hasn't given the other 4 civs isolated starts - if he has they'll be backward which helps Gandhi, but we won't be able to trade techs with any of them.

No problem, we will trade them optics soon enough .
In fact it would be if one of them is backward enough to be an easy prey.

 

[pigswill]

Re GS for Astronomy. It would be worth checking out how long it would take to research astronomy without it (which we won't know until we've got calendar) compared to how long we estimate it would take to wipe out GK. If they are likely to take about the same time then we could either gift Gandhi another academy or take the GS with us. We obviously can't push off without astronomy and we can't push off with having at least one city overseas to ensure our survival as a civ.

 

[cabert]

Re GS for Astronomy. It would be worth checking out how long it would take to research astronomy without it (which we won't know until we've got calendar) compared to how long we estimate it would take to wipe out GK. If they are likely to take about the same time then we could either gift Gandhi another academy or take the GS with us. We obviously can't push off without astronomy and we can't push off with having at least one city overseas to ensure our survival as a civ.

although I see your point, I fear you won't be able to give an answer to this.
There are 2 facts unknown to us :
- how well our economy will do when we're in the war
- how long the war will be

What we could do is click on astronomy right now or when optics is in to see how many turns it is supposed to be, then estimate (assess may be a better word?) how many turns it could take to bring GK down.
I suspect that this war will be very long for 3 reasons :
- GK is a tough one
- keshiks are a real pain
- we spoke of sueing for peace. 10 turns is a long time!
Given those facts, I'd say the war could very well be 30+ turns.
That's a long time to research astronomy, but we will have to
- build units (= less commerce tiles worked)
- pay upkeep for those units+maintenance for new cities (= lower science slider).

We may be better off having the colossus still working while we're at war (keshiks don't pillage the sea!) , so we shouldn't lightbulb astro before the war is well over anyway.
What do we need to avoid to be able to lightbulb astro?
We need to avoid :

1. Scientific Method
2. Physics
3. Education
4. Printing Press
5. Fiber Optics
6. Computers
7. Philosophy
8. Chemistry
9. Fission
10. Fusion
11. Paper

so we need to avoid meditation and CS
meditation isn't a big deal, but CS means no berserkers!

After some internal debate I suggest
- going to war asap
- teching to construction, priesthood,
- trading for calendar, col, currency
- teching towards CS
- lightbulbing astro just before CS is in

 

[Cam_H]

teching towards CS

But what about beaker decay?

 

[cabert]

But what about beaker decay?

You'll blame me .

If all goes how I imagine,
we would have 80% of astronomy from the GS, then CS in next turn, tech towards astro = 1 turn of beakers decay.
I really think the grace period is more than 1 turn

 

[stuge]

Okay. I can play before the weekend. In fact, I have to. My buddy will turn 18 saturday so... (phbbt to all you old-timers. )

The plan is to get the age of sail underway and prepare for taking out GK. Anyone have any points that they wish to stress?

 

[pigswill]

Techwise finish optics, go for construction. We'll need a couple of caravels (or upgraded triremes) asap after optics. Spears seems to be a popular request.

 

[remconius]

Astronomy alone currently takes 53 turns IIRC. But take note its around 4400 beakers and a GS gives 2200 That means 50% not 80%.

Beaker decay grace period is very long so it should not be an issue.

Axes are 1-2 turns away from Samarqand borders.
Currently GK is still lightly defended. If we can hit him hard and take iron, Samarqand and maybe his capital we can cripple him significantly.

Stuge,
I think waiting 15 turns before declaring could be too long. See if you can prepare for war and declare in your turnset.

For war we need:
Axe stack reinforced with spears.
Chariots/HA ready to snatch Iron.
Cats coming soon.

 

[cabert]

Astronomy alone currently takes 53 turns IIRC. But take note its around 4400 beakers and a GS gives 2200 That means 50% not 80%.

Beaker decay grace period is very long so it should not be an issue.

Axes are 1-2 turns away from Samarqand borders.
Currently GK is still lightly defended. If we can hit him hard and take iron, Samarqand and maybe his capital we can cripple him significantly.

Stuge,
I think waiting 15 turns before declaring could be too long. See if you can prepare for war and declare in your turnset.

For war we need:
Axe stack reinforced with spears.
Chariots/HA ready to snatch Iron.
Cats coming soon.

agreed about war timing and tactics
about GS, it's population dependant. If we manage to take most of GK's empire it will be more than 2200 beakers.

 

[MrMahk]

Hey guys, I forgot to tell you but I am in Maine for the next couple days on a trip.

As for strategy, I believe you guys have pretty much laid out what we have to do. I agree that our sights should definetely be set on GK, especially before he goes out and meets other people which could give us a demerit. I don't think he's bound to have too many keshiks out yet, so we should strike pretty soon.

I will try to check in as much as possible over the next few days. Good luck!

 

[stuge]

Tech

By cranking up the science rate, the Vikings soon became capable of ploughing the ocean's waves.

Then science was ignored for a few years to pay for the new, ultra-sexy longships. Two were commissioned, one stayed home to guard the Colossus and the other headed east.

The technological advancement of the north-men became unquestionable, when a great scientist appeared in Nidaros. Currently he is hibernating.

We're also one turn away from construction.

Economy

Not much here. I whipped a forge in Nidaros, coupla spears in Uppsala and a sword in Haithabu. Otherwise nothing special.

Blood brother

Gandhi did well and not so well this round. He popped a great artist and a great scientist. I thought: "Way to go, G-man." Then he used them for a golden age. That wasn't so great. Otherwise, he's got war elephants and longbows now and they're looking pretty scary across the channel.

Exploration and new victims. Err... friends

Our eastbound caravel encountered some fresh faces.

So, I believe we have now met all the civs. Now we've got to start thinking about diplomacy. And I've got a proposal for that.

I didn't trade with anyone initially because I wanted to check their relations first and it paid off. Notice how Washington is a sole confucianist? All the others over there are buddhist. That means that nobody would care if he dropped dead.

So I propose that we trade only with the buddhist block. We're MC and compass up on all of them and can pick up some good techs in trade.

So we trade only with the followers of Buddha and leave George out in the cold. Then, when it's time to migrate, we hit George with our berserkers.
He's the point leader over there so his lands should provide us with a nice recovery base.

The manure and the clean-up

Originally I thought that the war wouldn't start during my set. Then Genghis drops by.

This caused me to mutter "oh ****" under my breath. Fortunately the sneak attack caused no damage. There were two keshiks in Avar but I'd brought two spears to the area and they were able to contain the threat. Now Genghis has one spear, one keshik and one chariot up there. We've still got our spears and two swords heading north to take the city.

In the south, I teached Genghis a lesson.

Lost one axe in the assault. Lost another to a keshik after taking out a spear.
Naturally one of ours took care of the donkey-walloper soon after.

I suggest that our main stack heads straight towards Karakorum while a smaller one razes New Sarai, defended only by two archers. I'm sure that we can settle a city there that doesn't waste a riverside gem mine. (Sheesh.)

Cam_H is up.
Cabert is on deck.

The save.

 

[pigswill]

An eventful set indeed and delicately played (before heading off to a weekend debauch and several days recovery).

 

[remconius]

Good stuff, Stuge :Goodjob:

I think now is a good time to reconsider our strat. Cam can play on Sunday, so we have until then to agree on things. Stuge's plan sounds pretty good.

I dont think we met all our rivals:

Rivals - 7 civs including Gandhi (who is locked in war with Ragnar)

We currently have met 6 rivals so there is either one more on the continent or he is on a seperate isle. (Perhaps Mansa Musa "the natural Space Racer" on his own super continent...)

 

[remconius]

Something odd, Mehmed knows GK.... Wonder how that happened...

Big question will be, how do we make the world like Gandhi or Gandhi like the world.

One idea: If we take out GK, and take Turfan, we'll be able to build Jewish missionaries to send to the new world and convert potential trade partners for Gandhi.

 

[pigswill]

Let's spend a few days pondering options. We've got three months to finish the game, we're keeping up the pace so shouldn't run out of time.

It would be useful to get a plan together for wiping out GK, deciding on friends and enemies (remembering any friend of ours is Gandhi's enemy!), maximising tech trades, locating our new homeland etc etc.

 

[stuge]

GK has optics so he can meet the others on his own. I don't think that they'll take to him, though.

Yeah, finding friends for Gandhi in this situation could be tricky. Let's hope that missionaries will do the job.

 

[pigswill]

Initial thoughts on tech stuff. We can pick up calendar in first round of trading which should open up astronomy. Once astronomy is available we can burn GS on it. Once GS has been used we can forget about keeping trades uncontaminated and go for CS (and meditation) asap. We may need to manage our trades a bit carefully so that we could get compass, currency, monotheism and monarchy the next turn all for one tech. Then look to see if we can acquire CS and feudalism in next set of trades.

 

[patagonia]

Good turns there stuge.

A few thoughts on looking at the save:

If we research priesthood next (2 turns), we should be able to make the following trades:

Compass/MC to Isabella for Calendar
Compass/MC to Brennus for Currency
Compass/MC to Mehmed for Monarchy (CoL would be useful - we don't have time to build courthouses right now...although it does open up CS for research - a painful 28 turns at the moment, although that will fall).

If you can, trade the same tech to each of those 3 Buddhists so they can't trade with each other, then see if anything new and exciting opens up for the following turn.

Now that Nidaros has bequeathed us a scientist, we may as well sack the two specialists there. By sending one to work the mines and turning another into an engineer, we can up production from 12 to 20 hammers/turn, which will do for now until we can get another mine built.

Gandhi has Longbows, so we want to make whatever inroads we can into Mongol territory soonish before he gives Feudalism to his buddy Khan. Interesting question we may have to consider... if Genghis capitulates to Gandhi, do we leave him be? Or finish him off? Are vassals even turned on for this game? I think we'd probably have to finish him off because of WW, but Gandhi would gain his cities eventually anyway, so that shouldn't affect things too much. Baldy's power graph is a little scary mind you. If we get the chance, another couple of caravels to deter any landings out of Bombay or Delhi might be a plan.

We'll probably get a GG in the next turnset too. Medic 3 chariot in view of all the warmongering we'll likely be doing, or does anyone have a better idea?

 

[pigswill]

Medic 3 unit is best because it means we can eventually build WP to go with HE when we find our new home.