SGOTM 04 - Trash Team

[cabert]

sorry guys that I played so fast.
But it seemes rather straightforward, and I had the time to play (which is rare those days).

About the plan, I didn't sgne peace, because it seemed debatable.
Do we need meditation? I think not.
Do we want to fight more? I think not.
Do we want to let gandhi take cities? not gold city, at least in the next 30 turns.
Do we want to try to make a religious group with judaism? Seems fair, but hard to do. Isabella won't convert whatever we do.
Hannibal won't convert whatever we do.
We could try working on the others.
GW doesn't seem worth the effort, he is at war with Hannibal and is worst enemy of a few buddhists.
I'd go for him as migration target. He has a few good cities to take, and hannibal seems to put on under strong stress.

 

[pigswill]

Mehmed generally seems to be a major tech-hog and a very poor choice as a trading partner. Isabella won't like anyone of a different faith and is keen on theocracy to boot. This leaves Brennus as the only buddhist worth converting.

 

[stuge]

So, polish off Genghis in the short term and send missionaries across the sea?
Long-term, finish astro, trade it hopefully for things like CS, engineering and guilds and. Build an invasion force and hit GW hard.

Sounds like a plan to me.

 

[remconius]

Pieces are beginning to fall into place for a grand strategy:
1) Polish off GK and let Gandi capture the continent.
2) Pick off buddhist civs one at a time (go buddhist to get religious bonusses to outweigh declare on friend). Use buddhist bloc as our main power base.
3) Work on GW and Hanny being pals and trade-partners with Gandhi.
4) When GW and Hanny are at the point of building Apollo wipe them out (coz they won't be trading space techs anyway) leaving Gandhi as the only serious space cadet.

Captain, I agree with the overall strategy, but I am worried about the order you place the steps in. We should convert the world sooner rather than later. In SGOTM3 we waited too long and that cost us the chance at a diplomatic victory.

If we want to improve Gandhi's space time we need to help him make some friends. Gandhi is friendly guy, especially with brothers of the same faith. If we can convert some civs to Judaism this will surely speed up his space time.

I agree it might not be possible to convert all, but we should not wait, Religion will have spread further and it will be more difficult to convert them.

Even if Mehmed is a poor trading partner, it's AI-to-AI so he should have some benefit. He's easy to convert.

Brennus is another obvious target. No self founded religion and likely to have only few buddhist cities.

And if we can convert GW as well it would be the best for Gandhi. But he's founded confucianism. It might take more effort but the benefit would be greater.

Isabelle and Hannibal already have theocracy so they are no longer possible to convert. If more civs adopt this civic our chances will diminish.

If we want a shot at converting the world, we should not wait to finish off GK and do it now. Effort involved is a couple of caravels built on our east coast, and small herd of missionaries (2-3 for brennus and mehmed and 4-5 for GW) shuttled across the channel by the two caravels'


BTW, I just see Ponting got your text message, Cam, he made 23 runs and just got caught.

 

[pigswill]

I didn't really include converting world to judaism as part of strategy. Assuming that Isabella and Hannibal run theocracy that leaves Mehmed, GW and Brennus. GW will need more jewish cities than confucian so we'll have to check that out later. Its quite possible that we ain't going to have OB with GW which complicates things slightly.
We can certainly have a go at combining conversion program (starting with Brennus) with war vs GK.
If Gandhi swops to FR later then conversion efforts will be wasted diplomatically.

 

[MrMahk]

Ok, well I am back and will be able to take it after a few things are cleared up. First and foremost, I do not see a save from Cabert.

Also, I personally think that we should continue the war vs. Genghis, although I can't get a look at the forces I would have at my disposal. Furthermore, since we will be switching to OR, meditation would be not worth it IMO.

As for religion- Mehmed and Brennus are obviously first priorities for judiasm. I do not think it is possible or worth it to try to get GW or Hannibal because they have founded their own religions, and even if it's possible to get them to switch to one they didn't found, it would probably take a lot of missionaries that could be used for solidifying Mehmed or Brennus.

Next, our "great" swordsman. I have always found that medic III is best used on a 2-movement unit such as a chariot. Swordsmen are slower, meaning they can only move as fast as the stack. They are also more powerful, meaning they are more likely to be chosen to defend if our stack is attacked. Lastly, he could be upgraded to a Berserker, so it seems like a waste for him not to (we would want to keep him swordsman to make it less likely for him to defend). Therefore, I think we should just city-raider him up and make him an offensive powerhouse. Maybe we could use the next great general for a medic III. If you guys really want him to be medic III, I'm fine with that, but to me it seems that he would be better off as an attacker.

 

[remconius]

I agree there are risks involved in converting civs. At the same time it is our best and only shot at aiding Gandhi in the space race. Gandhi is currently focused on building units and not on science.

Gandhi might convert to FR in the future, but would have built a relations with Jewish allies.

Lets see if we can convert Brennus and Mehmed in the next couple of turnsets. Let's not waste time to increase our chances. That means, Switch to OR, rush missionaries/1-2 caravel, shuttle them to Brennus/Mehmed.

 

[pigswill]

The other diplo modifer that's easy to manipulate is mutual military (against us). We could think about faux wars against civs we want to trade with Gandhi; Hannibal seems an obvious ally for Gandhi; Brennus is another likely choice; the others seem more doubtful for different reasons. On the other hand Gandhi is going to dislike Brennus and his fellow buddhists for trading freely with us which would take a reasonable religion bonus to neutralise. Having made the decision to use buddhists as our trading partners its going to be difficult to repair their relations with Gandhi; its worth trying with Brennus but I'm not sure its worth the effort or hassle with Isabella or Mehmet.

Regarding warlord. In terms of West Point (when we get that far) it doesn't matter if they're a berserk city raider or a medic as long as they have 26xp.

Edit: If we were to become Hadrian's and GW's worst enemy Gandhi would not get a diplomatic penalty for trading with both of them.

 

[patagonia]

I think the biggest favour we can do either ourselves or Gandhi in the forseeable future is to wipe out Khan ASAP. That'll allow us to mobilise forces for our migration, giving Gandhi an empire 3x the size of anyone else in the world. I for one would much rather we built military than missionaries in the near future.

The Buddhists are a tricky bunch to pick between in terms of trying to get Gandhi some buddies. Isabella will hate him forever, and there's a fair chance that either Brennus or Mehmed will press for Islam/Tao (has that gone yet?) so that they can have their own religion.

Long-term, we're probably best off trying to push other civs into free religion so that they don't get too ticked off with Gandhi and trade with him.

Just to repeat what I said earlier, I'm on holiday this week coming so I'll need a skip for the next round. Hope things go well for both us and India!

 

[remconius]

I think the biggest favour we can do either ourselves or Gandhi in the forseeable future is to wipe out Khan ASAP. That'll allow us to mobilise forces for our migration, giving Gandhi an empire 3x the size of anyone else in the world. I for one would much rather we built military than missionaries in the near future.

My worry is that he will use is power to come after us. Would he be trying to match his power to ours? So the bigger we get the more military Gandhi builds to match us.

In that case we should migrate and stay small.... Yet big enough take on any builders.

 

[remconius]

Ok, well I am back and will be able to take it after a few things are cleared up. First and foremost, I do not see a save from Cabert.

All Saves can always be picked up from the Game of the month page.
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php

Here is the save

 

[pigswill]

Thanks for the link.

Interesting, we're at war with GK and Gandhi, trailing badly on score (and probably power) and we're building buildings - not a single unit in production. Gosh, I am surprised (notice how polite I'm being).

Might I suggest that we cancel all current builds and replace them with cats (maybe the occasional longbow). We could also change civics to vassalage and OR which combined with slavery means we can whip missionaries from jewish cities and whip/build lvl3 units in any city with a barracks.

We are now 18 turns from astronomy at current research rates. We are not very near to being in a position to emigrate after astronomy and I would venture to suggest currently moving further away.

I just thought I'd make these observations as a break from important debates about strategic diplomacy.

 

[cabert]

Thanks for the link.

Interesting, we're at war with GK and Gandhi, trailing badly on score (and probably power) and we're building buildings - not a single unit in production. Gosh, I am surprised (notice how polite I'm being).

Might I suggest that we cancel all current builds and replace them with cats (maybe the occasional longbow). We could also change civics to vassalage and OR which combined with slavery means we can whip missionaries from jewish cities and whip/build lvl3 units in any city with a barracks.

We are now 18 turns from astronomy at current research rates. We are not very near to being in a position to emigrate after astronomy and I would venture to suggest currently moving further away.

I just thought I'd make these observations as a break from important debates about strategic diplomacy.

I think we need to build up the cities we plan to gift to gandhi.
forges and markets and courthouses.
+ the war with GK should end now.

 

[pigswill]

So back to an earlier debate. Is it better to give Gandhi unfurnished cities in 1000ad or furnished cities in 1500ad (dates picked purely for the purpose of illustration).
My view is that its better to provide unfurnished cities earlier. Half the furniture will get broken in the move. It enables Gandhi to be working more tiles sooner. It gives us more time to establish our new home because we can't take any of the old furniture with us. The longer we delay moving the tougher the opposition we face from the squatters we're trying to evict.

I agree we should sue for peace but purely as a ruse de geurre. Build up our military and arrange units in balanced stacks ready to resume hostilities in a more prepared and organised state.

Edit: Will cabert get his 4000th post before my 2000th? I'm sure we'll find out.

 

[MrMahk]

Cap'n Pigswill makes some good points. I took a look at the save, and we are in no position to keep this war up. We have multiple offensive units up north that would take a long time to get down to the front. Also, Avar and Birka, our two cities closest to Gandhi (who has a large military and complete naval supremacy in the area) have garrisons of a sword and spear, and a chariot, respectively. My point is, as Pigswill put it, we're spread too thin. Some of the infrastructure will just have to wait.

I guess I will probably be able to play and post in about 45 mins-1 hour unless there is some matter still left to discuss.

 

[MrMahk]

Ok, well this was certainly an interesting one:

I started out by making the following deal with brennus:

I then revolt to OR and vassalage.
Genghis settles this terrible city:

Mehmed and Hannibal make peace with Washington in the next consecutive turns. Check out how Hanny whooped him!

Also I spot some pikes in Genghis's lands- meaning he has engineering.

In 815 AD, Gandhi gets a great prophet, and uses him for.............the Church of the Nativity!!!! And no, the Temple of Solomon has not been built yet. What an idiot move on Gandhi's part, might even force us to rework our whole religion-spreading plan.

Speaking of religion, one of our caravels toured Brennus's lands- and he had a total of 4 cities with buddhism; 2 of them being size 1. A bit into the round, he converted to hinduism, as it had spread to his capital. Also in the round, I spread judiasm in his capital, and have more missionaries coming.

A bit after that, Genghis gets CS and revolts to bureaucracy and theocracy.
I also beg some cash from Mehmed and Hannibal- about 200 total.
Then, in 770, he comes to us with this:

I say no, and......

So, we are at war a bit sooner than expected. I moved the forces I had been gathering around New Sarai and begin to bombard the defenses. Here's what it looks like now, down from 100% cultural defense :

On the other front, I razed Sanchu (that bad city Genghis had just founded).
As I move in towards Karakorum, which earlier reconaissance had revealed to have a weak garrison, things go very downhill. First, a few keshiks start to wreak some havoc on my advancing forces. Then, I lost a 94.6% battle with our best spearman. Here is how it looks now:

Also, just for reference, here is the tech situation:

We have astronomy on everyone, and that is it.

Roster
Pigswill -UP
Remconius- On deck
Stuge
Cam_H
Cabert
MrMahk
Patagonia

Here is the save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Trash_Team_SG004_AD0830_01.CivWarlordsSave

 

[stuge]

Nice set, MrM.

Right now, I think that we should just shut off research, trade for CS and engineering and get some berserkers and trebs out there by upgrading and whipping, if necessary. We ain't going to tackle Genghis anytime soon with our antique units.

About the migration, GW has now been weakened but does he have any half-decent cities left? It'll be hard to survive until Gandhi launches, if we're stuck with a few, worthless cities.

 

[cabert]

Nice set, MrM.

Right now, I think that we should just shut off research, trade for CS and engineering and get some berserkers and trebs out there by upgrading and whipping, if necessary. We ain't going to tackle Genghis anytime soon with our antique units.

100% agreed
That was the idea of the beeline!
Try to trade optics + whatever to brennus, hannibal, mehmed for CS.
If it's not possible, try to get drama + gold for col and/or optics before trying again with another leader.
If it's still not possible, we're bound to trade away astro, and this isn't good. But it's better than delaying, according to our captain's instructions.

About the migration, GW has now been weakened but does he have any half-decent cities left? It'll be hard to survive until Gandhi launches, if we're stuck with a few, worthless cities.

My suggestion : build enough units for the conquest (4 galleons, loads of catapults, 10 berserkers, a few trebs are good too, and a few pikes, but this is optionnal) then start moving everyone away from our cities into Mongol land. Let's take everything from him here and abroad.
If we start to lose momentum, we can sue for peace and another tech , GK seems to tech fast.
We don't need to tech much more in the next 200 years, so gifting cities to India is great now, including gold center. I think we could wait for the great merchant to pop in colossus city, to fund our conquest (and that is why I wasn't all for speed now). This could be made faster with a merchant specialist or 2 there= a market or caste system.
I vote for America as next target after GK.

 

[remconius]

Good turnset

Nice to see we have our first missionaries underway. Good to see GK going down, eventhough there is yet some work to do for our berserkers. We dont need much more science, if we could upgrade to berserkers we should be fine.

I agree we need about 4 galleons, but not many more. They are very fast and can shuttle units across at great speed. No need to go in one shipment.

I think the biggest challenge in the migration is threefold:
-To continue to keep up income to cover expenses of our army and maintenance with new cities we gain.
-To keep access to resources we need for Berserkers (Iron). As well as happiness...
-To get our new capital in a proper place.

For the first one we need to balance losing cities to the rate we gain cities. Like when we lose gold city, we need to have similar new cities to cover... If we lose more cities than we gain we also lower maintenance provided we capture high commerce cities.

The second one is a point strategic planning. Control new iron, lose old iron. Also current trades would be cancelled if we lose gold city, upsetting Brennus.

The third one is also quite tricky. I think the capital moves to the next biggest city. That means we need to capture a new capital and keep at highest pop when we lose our current capital. Pop control can of course be done by whipping.

Questions: If Gandhi lands again, do we move away and let Gandhi in? Do we even bait him with lightly or undefended cities? And can we deal with losing our capital / gold city now to cover current expenses?

 

[pigswill]

We're doing ok. Main thing is to focus on polishing off GK (which is not straightforward according to the power chart).

America does seem to be the best target at the moment (unless there's a barbarian continent lurking in the darkness).

I've not yet become a major fan of trebuchets. Maybe its time I learned.

Edit: cross post with remconius. I'm thinking that we capture New Sarai next which is a definite gimme for Gandhi. Birka has GM points (tho Colossus is now obselete) and our only iron. If I remember correctly maces can be built with iron or copper, need to check if this applies to berserkers. Uppsala has trade resources and the majority of our commerce. As long as move missionaries out Avar is not a defend to the death city.