SGOTM 04 - Trash Team

[Cam_H]

Good discussion guys!

My next round of two cents;

Test Game

I have only played my test game to 2380BC, and haven't learned too much other than I don't think the 'Worker first' option is the best approach and we should instead get the Work Boat and use our high- tiles on getting to Bronze Working for Slavery. I'm not ready to start. I don't want to settle two tiles north until we see what's two tiles north, although I suspect it will be the superior spot.

Religion

It's all but a given that Gandhi will found Buddhism or Hinduism. It is our role to get it into our empire and spread it ... almost like a religious crusade! I suspect that the AI will burn a Great Prophet on a Shrine if the religion has been spread widely enough, otherwise it goes towards a Golden Age. Gandhi is of course now Philosophical, so the Shrine shouldn't take too long one would hope if we do our job.

Proximity of Cities

I agree with Cabert ... we should give Gandhi as much free space as we can so he can settle his own cities rather than us gambling on him taking ours. I'd leverage our Financial trait by settling along the coast and let Gandhi take the inland spots provided we're not forgoing natural opportunities like grabbing an Iron or a couple of Gold tiles for instance.

We need to be strong in order to influence the game, so being too concessionary to Gandhi early on may be ultimately counter-productive.

The Colossus

Totally agree with Cabert ... unless we've landed next to Stone or some other dilemma-causing incident like that, I think this is the WoW that should be high, if not top of our hit list.

Technology Path

Bronze Working > Worker technologies > Sailing > Metal Casting?

Proposal only, but we should be agreed on this.

 

[cabert]

ok for BW, while gandhi researches his religion

 

[MrMahk]

The only problem is that we don't start with mining, so it's a pretty long way to BW. I guess it's ok though because finding military resources is important to make sure we have enough "leverage" over Gandhi.

So overall, I think Cam_H's plan sounds good!

 

[remconius]

The thing with settling 2N is that we dont lose anything.

But gains are nice:
-plains hill to found on.
-Chance of more resources up north.

I suggest our opener moves Scout S, E and settler 2N and then posts screenies before continuing

 

[cabert]

The thing with settling 2N is that we dont lose anything.

you overlooked 2 things :
- fish
- cottageable land

But gains are nice:
-plains hill to found on.
-Chance of more resources up north.

- we don't need to found on the plains hill. We have loads of food and could put this hill to good use with a mine
- chances are for tundra or ocean up north

I suggest our opener moves Scout S, E and settler 2N and then posts screenies before continuing

I agree with this except what I striked out .
Settling where we are, building workboat 1 then workboat 2 then possibly worboat 3 for exploration duty while researching mining/BW seems the best moves right now.
Hopefully our scout doesn't fall into an indian trap.
The goal is to have food to grow to size 4
(will allow us to whip a worker after 1 turn of hammers invested then barracks/warriors while growing back...)

 

[stuge]

I agree with Cam_Hs initial plan. Definetly snag the clolossus if we manage to expand waterfront.

BTW guys, would it be alright for one more player to join us? Patagonia would be eager to play but has missed the sign-up.

 

[pigswill]

I'm wondering about our overall strategy. Haven't got round to playing a test game (or two) yet so this is still speculative.

Exploration seems important early on; so I'd favour fitting in sailing and a trireme or two (and a lighthouse!). I think we need to get our home island explored. We also need to locate Gandhi early on, maybe plan to expand in the opposite direction.

I remain keen on the idea of an early religion and shrine for Gandhi to capture coz relying on any AI to do what what we want is a recipe for frustration and disappointment.

I would like us to win the circumnavigation race because +2 naval movement (with tradehouse) is likely to prove a huge strategic benefit throughout the game.

In terms of wonders I reckon its a matter of available resources.

 

[pigswill]

I'd be more than happy for patagonia to join us if he can swing it with AlanH (signing in blood that he hasn't read any other threads etc.).

 

[remconius]

you overlooked 2 things :
- fish
- cottageable land


- we don't need to found on the plains hill. We have loads of food and could put this hill to good use with a mine
- chances are for tundra or ocean up north

Which Fish? I dont see a fish

We do lose cottageable land, but gain 2 plains hills. Currently we only have 2 plains hills and 1 grass hill. When moving we would have 4 plains hills and 1 grass. If we want to protect Gandhi we need lots of units to fight Gandhi and his enemies. With all the food available I would really like to have a production powerhouse capital. And with bureaucracy it would be very powerful.

If the results from moving 2N are extremely bad we could always move back and settle in turn 3. Remember the start is not crucial, we dont need to be the best, we just need to stay alive and help Gandhi.

 

[cabert]

Which Fish? I dont see a fish

We do lose cottageable land, but gain 2 plains hills. Currently we only have 2 plains hills and 1 grass hill. When moving we would have 4 plains hills and 1 grass. If we want to protect Gandhi we need lots of units to fight Gandhi and his enemies. With all the food available I would really like to have a production powerhouse capital. And with bureaucracy it would be very powerful.

If the results from moving 2N are extremely bad we could always move back and settle in turn 3. Remember the start is not crucial, we dont need to be the best, we just need to stay alive and help Gandhi.

you're right there is no fish.
I still favour settling in place.

 

[pigswill]

Tricky one. At the moment we have no idea what the situation is. Are we sharing a small island with Gandi? Large island with Gandhi? Is Gandhi on an island north/south/east/west of us?

We can't really formulate a plan until we know these details.

Immediate question. Do we intend to found an early religion? If so settle in place, work high commerce and build a workboat for more commerce. If not then we can spend a turn or two exploring; send settler north, scout south-east and then decide on city#1.

We don't know if this will be a long term capital, an early game gimme to Gandhi or a mid-game gimme to Gandhi so let's think short/medium term for this city.

 

[stuge]

I say screw religion, we don't start with mysticism so going for an early religion is big gamble even with 3C tiles. Just go take a peek 2N, then decide where to settle.

Are we ready to go?

 

[remconius]

Been fog gazing.



These are the squares we gain when moving north:
1 Plains hill river
1 Plains hill
1 grassland hill
1 Grassland
1 Plains
2 coast
+3 unknown: Chance of more resources, risk of useless tiles.

We would lose:
5 Grassland
1 grassland hill
2 coast
2 ocean
+ certainty of knowning all and 1 turn early settlement

The net change is:
+1 Plains hill river
+1 Plains hill
+1 Plains
+3 unknowns
-4 grassland
-2 ocean
Basically a gain in hammers vs commerce.... We need production to build units. Gandhi needs commerce to build the ship, not us...

Let's be adventurous and move!

 

[remconius]

I agree that religion is a gamble. We could always get a scientist and try to get philosophy, or code of laws for Gandhi.

As long as one of his neighbours had the same religion they'll share techs. In my test game Hatty and Gandhi both had hinduism. I gave techs to Hatty she shared them with the low food, peacelover. We can spread whatever religion Gandhi has across the world.

Agree with Pigswill that we need to start and see what's out there. What is the roster and how many turns in the beginning?
First person should post some screenies after turn 1.

 

[Cam_H]

Religion

I remain keen on the idea of an early religion and shrine for Gandhi to capture coz relying on any AI to do what what we want is a recipe for frustration and disappointment.

Can't we just make the religion that he's going to found stronger by spreading it for him - initially in our own cities so we can get Temples )) and Monasteries science up, and perhaps then to a 'mutually friendly' neighbour who will be willing to trade technology with both the Vikings and the Indians?

It seems risky to hope that we are going to found a religion in the first instance ... distracting us from more warfare-oriented technologies (unless Confucianism, or to a lesser extent Taoism or Christianity), then will it be founded in a Viking-Indian border city, there's the cost of burning a Great Prophet when we should probably be chasing other Great People, then there's the hope that India is going to attack the 'right' city. All for what? Maybe 10 extra per turn to the Indians?

I'd rather ensure that we have Gandhi's religion in our own cities for the and and possibly embrace a religious civic, and then start manipulating world politics by flooding other tribes with Gandhi's own founded religion of choice.

Settling the Capital

I might have been unclear; I am happy to explore to the north, but I'd rather not commit to settling there until we see what's there. That is, let's not commit to on the spot or two to the north until we see more. Whoever has the first round should probably consult the Team once the Settler has moved to the north.

So all up, I agree with Tuomas.

I don't know Patagonia.

I still haven't learned anything from playing my test game. If you guys have to start, it's your call, but I don't think that we really understand our grand strategy yet, and what will work and what will fail.

 

[MrMahk]

This is a great discussion, but there is one thing nobody has mentioned yet- even if Gandhi does found a religion, there is no guarantee that it will spread to us (at least quickly).

Also, if we found a religion and "give" him the holy city, that could create some other problems diplomatically because he might keep switching back and forth between his religion (assuming he founded one) and ours. If that were the case, we wouldn't really know which missionaries to spam and might wind up creating more enemies for him than friends.

Personally, I think we are better off letting him found his own, and just hoping that it spreads to us. In my opinion, introducing more religions into the mix only makes it more complicated.


As for the start, I agree that we might as well move 2N then post up the picture, and discuss from there.

 

[remconius]

I was playing the test game. When I tried to finish off Jules, Both Alex and Gandhi came at me hard.

If Gandhi is our neighbour he'll focus on units...

We could migrate.... Who watched Independence Day (the SG...)

 

[Cam_H]

Remco,

The thought (Independence Day) crossed my mind too, but I was wary that we would give away too much in order to make it work. It could be a possibility however - exploration will be important, so Sailing should probably be an early feature in our technology tree.

Mark,

I would imagine that there's a greater liklihood of us attracting Gandhi's religion (provided he is a neighbour as earlier discussed) than our capacity to; found a religion in the city of choice and then lose that city with a Shrine in it to him.

I guess a lingering question I'm dwelling on is; How aggressive will Gandhi be if we are brothers and sisters of the faith? Will he tone down the military and not attack our cities, or won't it make a bit of difference?

I think we should maximise the value of the religious civics and improve our chances that he'll keep off our 'case' by adopting his religion and trying to also convert an intermediary leader (ideally a leader like Hatshepsut) for technology trading.

It might be nice if we're on a reasonably large landmass with four or five tribes, so we can raze some cities of some 'third party' tribe and give Gandhi some room for expansion while also fostering a good relationship with a friendly intermediary who hopefully won't be too competitive with Gandhi ...

... otherwise Independence Day might present itself as a realistic possibility. If so, how should we go about it?

 

[MrMahk]

Mark,

I would imagine that there's a greater liklihood of us attracting Gandhi's religion (provided he is a neighbour as earlier discussed) than our capacity to; found a religion in the city of choice and then lose that city with a Shrine in it to him.

Yeah- I totally agree. I was just throwing it out there.

 

[pigswill]

It seems there is a consensus on letting Gandhi found a religion and we spread it rather than us found a religion and let Gandhi capture it; having read the arguments in favour of this position I will agree with one caveat. If Gandhi doesn't found a religion of his own (unlikely but possible) then we'll think about founding one for him.

It also seems that there is a consensus re initial move of moving settler to the north for exploration as our very first move then deciding on location of first city.

Whilist I can understand that we want to start playing something of which I'm conscious is that in sgotm3 TT (Trash Team) started playing and didn't formulate a strategy until half way throughthe game which is ok in a non-competitive game but not so good if we're aiming for a laurel.

We could for instance play an open succession type dummy game in parallel with sgotm. Advantage would be we'd having something to play to bond as a team and keep interest going. Disadvantage would be that being a different map with different leaders etc plans that work ina dummy game may not apply to real sgotm.