remconius
Deity
good point actually! Academy on the long term can be of great benefit. It will decrease the time to Astronomy, but not as much as lightbulbing. Much better for G though.
SGOTM 04 - Trash Team
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
patagonia
Emperor
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2006
- Messages
- 1,025
Well, I think using 3 GS for the beeline is the right approach:
1 for optics and 2 for astronomy; or
1 for an academy, 1 for optics and 1 for astronomy.
Compass won't take that long to research so it's a bit of a waste of a scientist considering we're not philosophical or pacifists.
I'm not averse to using one for an academy in Uppsala (long-term that'd be great for Gandhi). If we research compass ourselves, GS1 will be sat around until GS2 arrives before being popped for Optics, so he could be effectively used for an academy during that window. GS3 could then lightbulb half of astronomy, but there would probably be a bit of a gap before GS4 appears so we'd end up researching the rest of it ourselves (after picking up CS).
This would get us early optics for exploration and allow us to build up an army of Berzerkers to take down Khan while finishing the beeline. We could subsequently load our veterans onto galleons and set sail for pastures new.
As we'd be doing a bit more self-directed research before completing astronomy, it also makes the colossus slightly more valuable. The issue then is where to build it. If Nidaros is chosen, we'll get it fastest (and thus benefit most), but compromise development in other areas. GPP contamination wouldn't be an issue as we'll complete GS1 there, can generate GS2 in Uppsala and GS3 in Avar, working mines in Nidaros in place of scientists for improved production generally. The alternative is to build it in Ironclam. That'd involve a border pop and a forge being built there before construction could begin, but there are several forests available to chop and speed things along subsequently. Our existing scouting workboat and trireme can fish and guard the clams there to help speed things along.
Revised plan for my turns (awaiting ratification
)
Found Ironclam and prepare for chopping the Colossus there
Use GS1 for an academy in Uppsala
Build military in Nidaros in preparation of capturing Avar and Phyrgian
Try to get another worker or two out there.
Tech path
Make a minor detour to pick up mysticism, polytheism, priesthood (opening monarchy for trade and getting us easy border pops) and archery, then research machinery ourselves (machinery before compass gets us earlier access to xbows).
1 for optics and 2 for astronomy; or
1 for an academy, 1 for optics and 1 for astronomy.
Compass won't take that long to research so it's a bit of a waste of a scientist considering we're not philosophical or pacifists.
I'm not averse to using one for an academy in Uppsala (long-term that'd be great for Gandhi). If we research compass ourselves, GS1 will be sat around until GS2 arrives before being popped for Optics, so he could be effectively used for an academy during that window. GS3 could then lightbulb half of astronomy, but there would probably be a bit of a gap before GS4 appears so we'd end up researching the rest of it ourselves (after picking up CS).
This would get us early optics for exploration and allow us to build up an army of Berzerkers to take down Khan while finishing the beeline. We could subsequently load our veterans onto galleons and set sail for pastures new.
As we'd be doing a bit more self-directed research before completing astronomy, it also makes the colossus slightly more valuable. The issue then is where to build it. If Nidaros is chosen, we'll get it fastest (and thus benefit most), but compromise development in other areas. GPP contamination wouldn't be an issue as we'll complete GS1 there, can generate GS2 in Uppsala and GS3 in Avar, working mines in Nidaros in place of scientists for improved production generally. The alternative is to build it in Ironclam. That'd involve a border pop and a forge being built there before construction could begin, but there are several forests available to chop and speed things along subsequently. Our existing scouting workboat and trireme can fish and guard the clams there to help speed things along.
Revised plan for my turns (awaiting ratification
)Found Ironclam and prepare for chopping the Colossus there
Use GS1 for an academy in Uppsala
Build military in Nidaros in preparation of capturing Avar and Phyrgian
Try to get another worker or two out there.
Tech path
Make a minor detour to pick up mysticism, polytheism, priesthood (opening monarchy for trade and getting us easy border pops) and archery, then research machinery ourselves (machinery before compass gets us earlier access to xbows).
Well, I think using 3 GS for the beeline is the right approach:
1 for optics and 2 for astronomy; or
1 for an academy, 1 for optics and 1 for astronomy.
Compass won't take that long to research so it's a bit of a waste of a scientist considering we're not philosophical or pacifists.
I'm not averse to using one for an academy in Uppsala (long-term that'd be great for Gandhi). If we research compass ourselves, GS1 will be sat around until GS2 arrives before being popped for Optics, so he could be effectively used for an academy during that window. GS3 could then lightbulb half of astronomy, but there would probably be a bit of a gap before GS4 appears so we'd end up researching the rest of it ourselves (after picking up CS).
This would get us early optics for exploration and allow us to build up an army of Berzerkers to take down Khan while finishing the beeline. We could subsequently load our veterans onto galleons and set sail for pastures new.
As we'd be doing a bit more self-directed research before completing astronomy, it also makes the colossus slightly more valuable. The issue then is where to build it. If Nidaros is chosen, we'll get it fastest (and thus benefit most), but compromise development in other areas. GPP contamination wouldn't be an issue as we'll complete GS1 there, can generate GS2 in Uppsala and GS3 in Avar, working mines in Nidaros in place of scientists for improved production generally. The alternative is to build it in Ironclam. That'd involve a border pop and a forge being built there before construction could begin, but there are several forests available to chop and speed things along subsequently. Our existing scouting workboat and trireme can fish and guard the clams there to help speed things along.
Revised plan for my turns (awaiting ratification
Found Ironclam and prepare for chopping the Colossus there
Use GS1 for an academy in Uppsala
Build military in Nidaros in preparation of capturing Avar and Phyrgian
Try to get another worker or two out there.
Tech path
Make a minor detour to pick up mysticism, polytheism, priesthood (opening monarchy for trade and getting us easy border pops) and archery, then research machinery ourselves (machinery before compass gets us earlier access to xbows).
I agree with everything except the tech path.
No detour!
We don't want to build any culture buildings.
The colossus will give enough culture anyway.
Revised plan for my turns (awaiting ratification
Yep!
Generally happy with the proposal, although like Cabert, not so enamoured with the Monarchy suggestion.Aside from a proposed post-Machinery diversion to Archery, I'm tending to lean towards the (near) pure bee-line myself in terms of side-stepping the religious tech's et al.
On the Great Scientists, I've also been swayed by the proposal that the first one be used for an Academy, the second for Optics, and the third for part of Astronomy. I admit that I've not scheduled the turns for Nidros'
pops, but it would be frustrating if we were held back waiting for a Great Scientist to arrive in 'say' fifteen turns for lightbulbing. Self-researching the second portion of Astronomy seems sensible and safer to me (given that I've not counted the turns and don't know exactly how the timing will work!) and as noted, we could possibly make an earlier start on Berserkers - although that might be a discussion for later. As I mentioned previously a while ago, and just f.y.i., in my test game I popped an against-the-odds Great Engineer from Nidros' forge which went to lightbulbing most of Machinery. It suited me because I was working on Compass at the time iirc, but it does pose the question of contaminating Nidros'
pool with a Specialist Engineer.As another aside - I wonder if New Sarai will flip to India?
pigswill
fly (one day)
We're only running scientists in Nidaros at present, due to pop a GS in about 12 turns iirc. Next GS (at 6gpt) takes 50 turns. The chances are we ain't going to start another GS elsewhere in the next 12 turns so minimum time for GS2 is 62 turns from now. We need to complete compass and machinery before we can burn GS on optics. If we used GS1 for academy in Uppsala we'd go from eg 20bpt to 30bpt (probably less) for an additional 600 beakers in 60 turns which is far fewer beakers than we'd get from saving GS and burning it on optics. I also suspect that we can complete machinery and compass (and probably archery) in less than 60 turns (particularly if we do invest in Colossus).
Therefore while I agree wholeheartedly with cabert's proposal that we bequeath Gandhi an academy it should come from GS2 or GS3 while we're teching towards astronomy (and missing out on CS until we've burned the GS on it).
As a further development it then might make sense to use GS2 on astronomy asap saving GS3 for academy because we can then forget about GS preferences and get (i.e. trade for) CS earlier for berserkers.
So my recommend is save GS1 for optics, build three or four chariots asap to free up axes from garrison duties then Nidaros focusses on Colossus while Uppsala builds axes. We would probably benefit from library and spare food in Avar to run a second GS production line.
Edit: This assumes that we're going for optics beeline and not researching around it. This remains my preference because I'm still convinced that early exploration and early tech trading will benefit our strategy. This also assumes that we can get machinery/compass/archery in less than sixty turns. I'm pretty confident this is correct but I have to admit i haven't actually checked it against the save.
My initial thoughts were not to trade with GK but on reflection while we'll only be trading 1 for 1 e.g. compass for alphabet as long as we meet the neighbours first we can still trade eg compass with them and thus hopefully still getting multiple trades per tech.
Edit#2. Just remembered that Colossus in Nidaros leads to gp pollution
so maybe ironclam for Colossus while Nidaros focusses on GS.
Therefore while I agree wholeheartedly with cabert's proposal that we bequeath Gandhi an academy it should come from GS2 or GS3 while we're teching towards astronomy (and missing out on CS until we've burned the GS on it).
As a further development it then might make sense to use GS2 on astronomy asap saving GS3 for academy because we can then forget about GS preferences and get (i.e. trade for) CS earlier for berserkers.
So my recommend is save GS1 for optics, build three or four chariots asap to free up axes from garrison duties then Nidaros focusses on Colossus while Uppsala builds axes. We would probably benefit from library and spare food in Avar to run a second GS production line.
Edit: This assumes that we're going for optics beeline and not researching around it. This remains my preference because I'm still convinced that early exploration and early tech trading will benefit our strategy. This also assumes that we can get machinery/compass/archery in less than sixty turns. I'm pretty confident this is correct but I have to admit i haven't actually checked it against the save.
My initial thoughts were not to trade with GK but on reflection while we'll only be trading 1 for 1 e.g. compass for alphabet as long as we meet the neighbours first we can still trade eg compass with them and thus hopefully still getting multiple trades per tech.
Edit#2. Just remembered that Colossus in Nidaros leads to gp pollution
so maybe ironclam for Colossus while Nidaros focusses on GS.
patagonia
Emperor
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2006
- Messages
- 1,025
Looks like we're settled on Ironclam for the Colossus, so I'm glad that's cleared up. Just one more thing to decide...
At the current tech pace, archery plus machinery plus compass will take 54 turns. If we keep 2 scientists hired in Nidaros, GS2 will take 62 turns.
If we save GS1 for Optics we should pretty much have GS2 by that point, making using GS2 for Astronomy and GS3/4 for academy/ies the fastest way of doing things.
Using GS1 for an academy will give us a bottleneck at optics of maybe 10-15 turns because it'll speed up our research generally. However, since we're looking at adding another 3 cities without picking up currency or CoL to help our economy out that may not be a bad thing.
The reason I wanted to pick up mysticism (a 3 turn detour) is that a monument in Ironclam will be a much cheaper way to get its borders popped for clams and iron (both in the second ring) than a library. We're likely to run out of forests and production if we try to chop both a forge and the Colossus there without expanding to work the two specials.
Sorry if I seem to be labouring this, but I want to make sure everyone's happy with the decision regarding GS1 who's due in 12 turns. So far it seems like Cabert, Cam and I favour an academy in Uppsala, while pigswill favours saving him for optics.
I'll aim to play tomorrow night so everyone has a chance to voice their opinion.
At the current tech pace, archery plus machinery plus compass will take 54 turns. If we keep 2 scientists hired in Nidaros, GS2 will take 62 turns.
If we save GS1 for Optics we should pretty much have GS2 by that point, making using GS2 for Astronomy and GS3/4 for academy/ies the fastest way of doing things.
Using GS1 for an academy will give us a bottleneck at optics of maybe 10-15 turns because it'll speed up our research generally. However, since we're looking at adding another 3 cities without picking up currency or CoL to help our economy out that may not be a bad thing.
The reason I wanted to pick up mysticism (a 3 turn detour) is that a monument in Ironclam will be a much cheaper way to get its borders popped for clams and iron (both in the second ring) than a library. We're likely to run out of forests and production if we try to chop both a forge and the Colossus there without expanding to work the two specials.
Sorry if I seem to be labouring this, but I want to make sure everyone's happy with the decision regarding GS1 who's due in 12 turns. So far it seems like Cabert, Cam and I favour an academy in Uppsala, while pigswill favours saving him for optics.
I'll aim to play tomorrow night so everyone has a chance to voice their opinion.
!
remconius
Deity
Let use the first scientist for an academy. It might be slightly slower for getting to astronomy, but it'll benefit us and Gandhi more in the long term. Especially when Uppsala starts working Corn (border pop in 1?) and hires a few scientists. 
Then we'll have two cities running scientists and we'll generate more GS. At the same time Uppsala will be doing well on science three goldmine, city, trade route (26 beakers) + 2 scientists (6 beakers) =32 beakers. Library will generate another 8 beakers, Academy another 16 = 56 total!! 
Then we'll have two cities running scientists and we'll generate more GS. At the same time Uppsala will be doing well on science three goldmine, city, trade route (26 beakers) + 2 scientists (6 beakers) =32 beakers. Library will generate another 8 beakers, Academy another 16 = 56 total!!
pigswill
fly (one day)
Technically goldmines and trade route generate commerce; its the science slider that determines the base beaker rate multiplied by library and academy so unless we're running 100% science (unlikely) the beaker rate is lower than 56. Its lower still before we build the library and allocate the two scientists. Without library and scientists base commerce would be 24 max; running at 80%science that's 19 beakers, academy adds extra 9 or 10. Our options for whipping Uppsala are limited if we want to carry on working goldmines so a library is several turns away.
I'm not disputing that in the longer term academy in Uppsala is a good investment. What I'm arguing is that saving GS1 for optics will get us optics c 15 turns earlier (slightly faster if we went compass, machinery, (burn GS on optics), archery) which means we resume exploring 15 turns earlier.
I'm not disputing that in the longer term academy in Uppsala is a good investment. What I'm arguing is that saving GS1 for optics will get us optics c 15 turns earlier (slightly faster if we went compass, machinery, (burn GS on optics), archery) which means we resume exploring 15 turns earlier.
Since we don't plan on winning this game, we plan on gifting good cities to Gandhi, I think that gifting one more city with an academy is largely superior to starting trading earlier/start moving earlier.
I doubt gandhi will move loads of troops into our land so soon. We will need to bait him with WB, then weak units/workers as Cam_h said.
Having Optics 15 turns ealier isn't game changing. One well placed academy can be.
pigswill
fly (one day)
Its not a debate about academies vs lightbulbing. Its a debate about optimum sequence.
Gandhi will not benefit from an academy until he captures the city. Its unlikely imo that we would surrender Uppsala to Gandhi before we're ready to push off (not impossible but unlikely).
Before we head off we have to achieve a number of things: wipe out GK (or let him capitulate to Gandhi), build a fleet of galleons and establish a beachhead overseas once we've located our next host. Techwise we could do with astronomy, CS for berserkers and construction for cats. There are a number of ways we can get the techs we need: improving our research rate (Colossus and academy/ies), tech-trading and lightbulbing. My argument is that the fastest way is by burning GS on optics followed by burning GS on astronomy; third and subsequent GS go for academies.
Pushing off eg 15 turns earlier means Gandhi benefits from (well-placed) academies 15 turns earlier.
Gandhi will not benefit from an academy until he captures the city. Its unlikely imo that we would surrender Uppsala to Gandhi before we're ready to push off (not impossible but unlikely).
Before we head off we have to achieve a number of things: wipe out GK (or let him capitulate to Gandhi), build a fleet of galleons and establish a beachhead overseas once we've located our next host. Techwise we could do with astronomy, CS for berserkers and construction for cats. There are a number of ways we can get the techs we need: improving our research rate (Colossus and academy/ies), tech-trading and lightbulbing. My argument is that the fastest way is by burning GS on optics followed by burning GS on astronomy; third and subsequent GS go for academies.
Pushing off eg 15 turns earlier means Gandhi benefits from (well-placed) academies 15 turns earlier.
remconius
Deity
I do see you point about speeding up optics, but your logic is not totally correct:
I think base commerce is 26 actually (3x8 + 1 (city) + 1 (traderoute)
Library is completed .... Granary due in 1 turn....
Border pop is next turn, so Corn can be worked.
With Corn and Granary we can quickly grow a few pop to work all gold mines and perhaps a scientist or 2....
This surely increases the value of an early academy.
It would be great if someone could calculate difference in turns to Optics between: Lightbulbing Optics and increased science in uppsala from Academy?
I think base commerce is 26 actually (3x8 + 1 (city) + 1 (traderoute)
Library is completed .... Granary due in 1 turn....
Border pop is next turn, so Corn can be worked.
With Corn and Granary we can quickly grow a few pop to work all gold mines and perhaps a scientist or 2....
This surely increases the value of an early academy.
It would be great if someone could calculate difference in turns to Optics between: Lightbulbing Optics and increased science in uppsala from Academy?
patagonia
Emperor
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2006
- Messages
- 1,025
Getting astronomy 15 turns earlier won't mean pushing off 15 turns earlier though. To a large extent it's Gandhi and Khan who will dictate when we depart these fair shores and I wouldn't be surprised if our evacuation takes until the Renaissance to complete.
Earlier optics will mean earlier exploration and trading, but I wouldn't have thought 15 turns at that point will be game-breaking. In terms of our short-term security it's safer to go the academy first route as that means earlier machinery. Crossbows and spears will mean we don't need to fear attacks from either of our neighbours.
Earlier optics will mean earlier exploration and trading, but I wouldn't have thought 15 turns at that point will be game-breaking. In terms of our short-term security it's safer to go the academy first route as that means earlier machinery. Crossbows and spears will mean we don't need to fear attacks from either of our neighbours.
pigswill
fly (one day)
It would appear that everyone who's voiced an opinion is in favour of using first GS for academy. While I am still not totally convinced I shall concede the point in the interest of team harmony.
If we've got 62 turns before second GS is available then we've got time to reseach some other stuff beforehand. We certainly don't need compass early on. Could go for mysticism for cheap border pops, archery for xbows with machinery ,maybe even look at maths for more effective chopping.
If we've got 62 turns before second GS is available then we've got time to reseach some other stuff beforehand. We certainly don't need compass early on. Could go for mysticism for cheap border pops, archery for xbows with machinery ,maybe even look at maths for more effective chopping.
archery and machinery, then compass.
We could use
- CoL
and/or
- Currency
to avoid total economic crumbling.
I vote for CoL and run a few artists where needed to get the border expansions. Scientists everywhere else is good too, of course.
We could use
- CoL
and/or
- Currency
to avoid total economic crumbling.
I vote for CoL and run a few artists where needed to get the border expansions. Scientists everywhere else is good too, of course.
remconius
Deity
How many turns for optics at normal pace? Could we get compas, machinery and optics within 62 turns? Should be possible with the academy in Uppsala...
If we go for CoL we should avoid Meditation! Otherwise our GS will lightbulb philosophy instead of astronomy :O
As a reminder:
Astronomy Beeline:
Mathematics
Compass
Calendar
Machinery
Optics
Astronomy
Great Scientist preferences:
Mathematics (own Research or GS)
Philosophy (avoid by avoiding Meditation, CoL and Drama)
Optics (GS?)
Paper (avoid by avoiding CS and Theology)
Astronomy (2 x GS?)
Compass (own research)
If we go for CoL we should avoid Meditation! Otherwise our GS will lightbulb philosophy instead of astronomy :O
As a reminder:
Astronomy Beeline:
Mathematics
Compass
Calendar
Machinery
Optics
Astronomy
Great Scientist preferences:
Mathematics (own Research or GS)
Philosophy (avoid by avoiding Meditation, CoL and Drama)
Optics (GS?)
Paper (avoid by avoiding CS and Theology)
Astronomy (2 x GS?)
Compass (own research)
stuge
Emperor
Mathematics -> currency and/or archery -> machinery -> compass?
Those we should research ourselves. CoL will probably be available for trading after we get those caravels out into the seas and will help with the astronomical scientists.
Those we should research ourselves. CoL will probably be available for trading after we get those caravels out into the seas and will help with the astronomical scientists.
if we want code of laws, we need either currency or priesthood.
if we want to lightbulb optics, we need mathematics anyway!
so minimal tech path is
- Mathematics
- Machinery
- Compass (note that this one requires IW! So don't tell me I did a detour)
How many turns is this?
Is it more than 62 turns?
Less?
how many less?
I have the feeling that if we insert archery in this list, we should be near the 62 turns.
Maybe a bit less with the academy, but as pigswill said, we won't be running 100% science much longer without currency and CoL!
I suggest going mathematics (chopping!), archery, machinery, compass then check how many turns optics requires. If it's more than 20, it's worth bulbing it and sending caravels around the world.
If we need to wait a bit for our next GS, we can start researching polytheism> priesthood towards CoL.
It would be great if we managed to trade for currency and CoL and alphabet.
CoL is vital for us! It's on the way to Berserkers!
if we want to lightbulb optics, we need mathematics anyway!
so minimal tech path is
- Mathematics
- Machinery
- Compass (note that this one requires IW! So don't tell me I did a detour
)How many turns is this?
Is it more than 62 turns?
Less?
how many less?
I have the feeling that if we insert archery in this list, we should be near the 62 turns.
Maybe a bit less with the academy, but as pigswill said, we won't be running 100% science much longer without currency and CoL!
I suggest going mathematics (chopping!), archery, machinery, compass then check how many turns optics requires. If it's more than 20, it's worth bulbing it and sending caravels around the world.
If we need to wait a bit for our next GS, we can start researching polytheism> priesthood towards CoL.
It would be great if we managed to trade for currency and CoL and alphabet.
CoL is vital for us! It's on the way to Berserkers!
patagonia
Emperor
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2006
- Messages
- 1,025
I'd forgotten we need maths before we can lightbulb optics.
I think cabert's pretty much spot on with the tech order (especially as we'll be chopping the Colossus in Ironclam). Am going to play now and will pretty much follow this.
Report to follow shortly.
patagonia
Emperor
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2006
- Messages
- 1,025
OK, after all that deliberation, here goes nothing...
Trireme and workboat head for the clams (10 turns); an Indian trireme is spotted en route.
Meanwhile:
The Viking blacksmiths make an important discovery.
And research is focused on something known as Mathematics (10 turns).
Nidaros completes chariot which joins settler to found Ironclam.
Start barracks in the capital to get some CR axes.
Ironclam's clams are under Indian culture. However, as this city is all about chopping the Colossus before popping borders, we'll get those back. Hope the team don't object, but I decided to found Birka there anyway and get started on the forge.
Spotted an Indian galley outside Birka so our trireme sank it.
GS1, AKA Nabu-rimanni was born and used to build an academy in Uppsala as discussed.
Apart from that things were fairly uneventful, although Gandhi did get a prophet from Stonehenge...
...and use him to found Christianity instead of building the Temple of Solomon
====================
Save
Roster
Pigswill - UP
Remconius - On deck
Stuge
Cam_H
Cabert
MrMahk
Patagonia
Trireme and workboat head for the clams (10 turns); an Indian trireme is spotted en route.
Meanwhile:
The Viking blacksmiths make an important discovery.
And research is focused on something known as Mathematics (10 turns).
Nidaros completes chariot which joins settler to found Ironclam.
Start barracks in the capital to get some CR axes.
Ironclam's clams are under Indian culture. However, as this city is all about chopping the Colossus before popping borders, we'll get those back. Hope the team don't object, but I decided to found Birka there anyway and get started on the forge.
Spotted an Indian galley outside Birka so our trireme sank it.
GS1, AKA Nabu-rimanni was born and used to build an academy in Uppsala as discussed.
Apart from that things were fairly uneventful, although Gandhi did get a prophet from Stonehenge...
...and use him to found Christianity instead of building the Temple of Solomon
====================
Save
Roster
Pigswill - UP
Remconius - On deck
Stuge
Cam_H
Cabert
MrMahk
Patagonia
Similar threads
- Sticky
