SGOTM 04 - Trash Team

[cabert]

Good turnset

Nice to see we have our first missionaries underway. Good to see GK going down, eventhough there is yet some work to do for our berserkers. We dont need much more science, if we could upgrade to berserkers we should be fine.

I agree we need about 4 galleons, but not many more. They are very fast and can shuttle units across at great speed. No need to go in one shipment.

I think the biggest challenge in the migration is threefold:
-To continue to keep up income to cover expenses of our army and maintenance with new cities we gain.
-To keep access to resources we need for Berserkers (Iron). As well as happiness...
-To get our new capital in a proper place.

For the first one we need to balance losing cities to the rate we gain cities. Like when we lose gold city, we need to have similar new cities to cover... If we lose more cities than we gain we also lower maintenance provided we capture high commerce cities.

The second one is a point strategic planning. Control new iron, lose old iron. Also current trades would be cancelled if we lose gold city, upsetting Brennus.

The third one is also quite tricky. I think the capital moves to the next biggest city. That means we need to capture a new capital and keep at highest pop when we lose our current capital. Pop control can of course be done by whipping.

Questions: If Gandhi lands again, do we move away and let Gandhi in? Do we even bait him with lightly or undefended cities? And can we deal with losing our capital / gold city now to cover current expenses?

About expenses, that's why I advocate waiting for (and speeding up) a great merchant. We don't need loads of research right now.
Astronomy has tremendous trading value, so we are in a comfortable position for a while.
But, if we don't trade astro, we're behind. .

I wouldn't mind about losing resources. Let's build enough berserkers fast. We'll build catapults for a while after that.
We shouldn't care too much for happiness either, if we trade for drama.
We just need our forces to keep moving.
I don't think missionary spamming is worth the effort. Liberalism will come soon and free religion will be the master of this field.
The only ones who will not run free religion are those having their own strong religion = not convertible.
SO to answer remco a bit more, I think we must decide if :
- we're ready to lose the potential great merchant or not? If yes, we need another source of commerce soon. Selling techs is only valid when you have buyers. This means we should target gems/gold/cottages fast and start leaving asap. We could even move around swimming chicken to bait Gandhi.
- we're ready to whip the hell out of our cities (= 3/4 unhappiness from whipping). I don't think this kind of unhappiness is going to hurt the next owner of the city. We could build up our army in 3/4 turns and just leave.
- where do we plan to move? I think America, but Isa is always a good target too.

edit : doesn't the obsolete colossus give GPPs?

 

[remconius]

We're ready to whip the hell out of our cities (= 3/4 unhappiness from whipping). I don't think this kind of unhappiness is going to hurt the next owner of the city. We could build up our army in 3/4 turns and just leave.

Agreed, It's the "just leave" part where we need a good plan. Leaving consists of going elsewhere and abanding our current cities.

Going elsewhere is the easy part.
1-Find a nice set of cities with enough commerce to fund the army, proper resources, etc.
2-Shuttle the army across, attack and declare the territory ours.
3-Then we still have to wait for the cities to come out of revolt, borders to expand and population to grow back. The whole process of bringing a city into full operation could take 10-20 turns. We also need to dispose of other cities with big cultural borders.

Abandoning current cities is the tricky part
We do not control this. In Independence day we could give away all our cities on the day and leave. Here we rely on G's army coming for us. He could come after our capital and gold city first. Meaning our prime sources of income/production are gone, yet maintenance is soaring with cities overseas. Ideally we keep forementioned cities till last but we dont know how it will happen. Or we pull back to Karakorum and a few of GK's cities and hope G will come after the original empire first. While leaving we should leave a unit in each city until G is there. Otherwise they go into unhappiness and provide less money.

What would happen if we run 100% cash and yet we can only fund our citiy maintenance, I guess the army will start to be abandoned. If so, we should avoid this

A great merchant would be great in funding the migration commerce gap that is likely to appear during the move. Alternatively we can save up for it. Science to 0% and see if we can build up some more cash.

 

[pigswill]

GM in Birka will take 170 turns without market and 2 merchants or 65 turns with market and 2 merchants (30 to build market, 35 to generate gm). I'm not convinced its worth the effort.

We can build/upgrade berserkers with copper.

It's unlikely that we can trade engineering for anything less than astronomy. Spears should be enough vs keshiks as long as we wipe out GK before he gets to knights. I'd rather keep astronomy until we can get several techs for it. Hopefully we can pick up CS from Isabella for optics.

More exploring seems useful. Maybe send some missionaries wandering around foreign lands before they complete their missions.

My thought would be to build cats and upgrade axes/swords to berserks. Switch off research as soon as we get CS.

Edit: There's also an option of taking along a settler and founding one city just to keep our civilisation alive. Raze a city and immediately build a replacement is another variation.

 

[cabert]

GM in Birka will take 170 turns without market and 2 merchants or 65 turns with market and 2 merchants (30 to build market, 35 to generate gm). I'm not convinced its worth the effort.

If we want this to happen, we can switch to caste system, but 35 turns is still too long IMHO.
Well, bad idea it seems.

We can build/upgrade berserkers with copper.

right

I'ts unlikely that we can trade engineering for anything less than astronomy.

why?
We can get it from GK .
He has some remote cities that we will have a hard time conquering fast = 10 turns to reach those faraway cities isn't a waste, so sueing for peace a second time is certainly doable.

Spears should be enough vs keshiks as long as we wipe out GK before he gets to knights.

agreed

I'd rather keep astronomy until we can get several techs for it. Hopefully we can pick up CS from Isabella for optics.

If it has to be optics + other things, including money, do it!

More exploring seems useful. Maybe send some missionaries wandering around foreign lands before they complete their missions.

right.

My thought would be to build cats and upgrade axes/swords to berserks. switch off research as soon as we get CS.

right

 

[remconius]

Captain, are you picking up the game? It is your turn...

 

[pigswill]

I haven't forgotten. On the other hand I don't feel we need to rush and I was awaiting further comments. I guess by now all comments that were going to be made have been made already so I'll play today.

 

[remconius]

My post wasnt to rush you, it was just a reminder.

I've gotten used to the SG practice of 24 hrs Got it / 48 hrs to play.

From my previous role as captain I have reained the habit of sending reminders. Old habits die hard, I guess.

 

[pigswill]

No problem

Edit: I'm still aware that a problem trash team had in sgotm3 was rushing too much. We were one of the first teams to finish but I'm not sure we debated in enough depth.

 

[pigswill]

I think that as soon as Gandhi lands a force near any of our cities we should surrender it so he can have a beach head on the main continent. Having said that giving up Uppsala's gold won't come naturally to me. Still we must all make sacrifices if Gandhi is to reach the stars.

 

[cabert]

I think that as soon as Gandhi lands a force near any of our cities we should surrender it so he can have a beach head on the main continent. Having said that giving up Uppsala's gold won't come naturally to me. Still we must all make sacrifices if Gandhi is to reach the stars.

I hesitated when I saw his catapult and elephant coming for gold city.
We had a lot more research to do, so I wasn't ready for it.
But now we can bank on the trade value of astronomy and simply withdraw.
If he lands, move the troops away.

 

[pigswill]

Got it. Played the remainder of first turn.

I'll post the set tomorrrow, maybe even today depending on other commitments (taking the wife shopping!).

 

[pigswill]

Significant faux pas. Played up to 1055. Forgot to make final save. .

Checked out autosave. I thought I'd set it to every turn but latest autosave was beginning of 1040 .

Unfortunately this was the beginning of the turn in which I successfully captured Karakoram which involved multiple attacks etc and I can't remember the exact sequence in which I attacked which is likely to affect RNG and combat outcome .

Not sure what to do so I'll pm AlanH (which is what I always do when I don't know what to do). Hope I haven't screwed the game .

 

[cabert]

Significant faux pas. Played up to 1055. Forgot to make final save. .

didn't you check the "save on exit" item?
It works fine.
(Of course if you press the power button out of frustration, it doesn't work that well )

Checked out autosave. I thought I'd set it to every turn but latest autosave was beginning of 1040 .

I have set it to each turn and keeping 50 saves. Works fine.

Unfortunately this was the beginning of the turn in which I successfully captured Karakoram which involved multiple attacks etc and I can't remember the exact sequence in which I attacked which is likely to affect RNG and combat outcome .

Did you use the autolog function?
You could find there all it takes to make the exact same moves (name/type of the unit and odds for each fight makes it easier).

Not sure what to do so I'll pm AlanH (which is what I always do when I don't know what to do). Hope I haven't screwed the game .

way to go.

 

[remconius]

Significant faux pas. Played up to 1055. Forgot to make final save. .

Must have been a hell of a smoke....

I guess now is a good a time as any to update your settings

 

[pigswill]

Had a reply from AlanH. I've replied to his reply and awaiting his reply to my reply to his reply.

Autosave interval updated to 1 (I was sure that I'd done this ages ago but obviously not).

Next time I get into the game I'll check the save on exit box.

This is not leadership by example.

Anyone else want to be captain?

 

[cabert]

Had a reply from AlanH. I've replied to his reply and awaiting his reply to my reply to his reply.

Autosave interval updated to 1 (I was sure that I'd done this ages ago but obviously not).

Next time I get into the game I'll check the save on exit box.

This is not leadership by example.

Anyone else want to be captain?

You're a fine captain, and this small issue will be solved .
May I suggest that all of us check and update if necessary our settings?
What I use :
- autosave interval set to 1
- up to 50 autosave files (not sure it is needed, but I think it can avoid some issues from parallel games, like SGotM and solo games)
- save on exit checked in the HoF mod settings
- fresh autolog file for each session

 

[pigswill]

Cabert; thank you for the kind words (getting closer to 4000 posts I see ).

I had a look at autolog. There is a problem in that it tells you which unit type was used in which sequence but not the particular unit and different promotions obviously affect combat odds. Good idea though .

 

[cabert]

Cabert; thank you for the kind words (getting closer to 4000 posts I see ).

I had a look at autolog. There is a problem in that it tells you which unit type was used in which sequence but not the particular unit and different promotions obviously affect combat odds. Good idea though .

The autolog does also give you the odds for the fight or am I confusing with the internal log? Can't check right now, sorry.

(and obviously, I'll beat you to the millenium post race)

 

[remconius]

I agree you're doing a good job as a captain, no need to change.

 

[pigswill]

Agreed a solution with AlanH.

Here's the save from the start of 1040ad: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Trash_Team_SG004_AD1040_01.CivWarlordsSave

Could someone play 1040/1055 blind (i.e. without a report) and once that's done I'll post my report for 830-1040ad. Sorry for the hassle .