SGOTM 04 - Xteam

[Bede]

@rrau - go to the home page and look for the Hall of Fame line in the links box to the left. You will find a Mods button there

Or go to here

 

[rrau]

Thanks

 

[leif erikson]

Thanks Bede.

I was over in the SGOTM12 forum for Civ III.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

That's a beautiful starting island for a science game

 

[rrau]

Here's a preliminary dotmap. There's some spaces between cities, though.

I'd personally settle: red, blue, pink (to keep Ghandi from getting a toe hold on our lands - or I guess we could let him settle there, but I doubt he'd get a worker out and improve it with our borders so close) then green

 

[Frederiksberg]

Looks like we have room for two nice commerce cities, our capital as a production city and then a few others.

EDIT - Yes, I agree with your second city site selection. But we need to be able to protect it as Gandhi is close at hand...

With Gandhi so close, I think we'll need The Wheel to connect the Copper and Sailing to build a couple of Triremes to protect our fisheries? To develop the area around the Gems, Iron Working. Do we head for Alphabet and try to trade or research these things by ourselves?

We'll also need to think about a small army to protect against Gandhi's landings, although if he wants to build a couple of nice cities for us, we'll take them?

Yes, there are some very nice commerce city sites in the jungle (as shown on rrau's dotmap) - particularly when we have researched IW and Calendar.

We are pretty weak right now and even though Gandhi is probably not a threat now or even soon we should think about fog busting and barb defence. I think we should move the warrior to the proposed (red dot) city site soon and fortify him there. That will provide maximum protection when the settler gets there.

Wheel is probably a good next tech that will enable us to hook the gold. Mysticism is another one in order to be able to chop an obelisk in our new city. What about the Oracle? We have to go for it soon if we want it. I think I remember that the CS slingshot is now difficult because we have learned Masonry but we could take Metal Casting as the free tech instead. Building forges makes good sense because they give us extra happy faces with gems and gold. Otherwise I agree that Sailing and IW are techs we need. I'm not sure we can get much tech trade with only one trading partner (Genghis) so I would postpone research of Alphabet until we have met more civs.

 

[DJMGator13]

Finally, checking in. Been way too busy at work and down for a few days with a pinched nerve in my neck. Doing much better now.

Should be an interesting game. I'm wondering if we can weaken some of the other AI's and get them to become vassals of Gandhi later in the game to help grow his empire and resources.

 

[rrau]

I don't think we want too many to become his vassals or we won't be able to trade them techs to in turn trade to Ghandi.

 

[leif erikson]

Wheel is probably a good next tech that will enable us to hook the gold. Mysticism is another one in order to be able to chop an obelisk in our new city. What about the Oracle? We have to go for it soon if we want it. I think I remember that the CS slingshot is now difficult because we have learned Masonry but we could take Metal Casting as the free tech instead. Building forges makes good sense because they give us extra happy faces with gems and gold. Otherwise I agree that Sailing and IW are techs we need. I'm not sure we can get much tech trade with only one trading partner (Genghis) so I would postpone research of Alphabet until we have met more civs.

After The Wheel, I would really like to consider going to Writing and chop Libraries instead of Obelisk. I think we need to get at least one Work Boat out scouting to see if we meet any other civs. If we do, then Alphabet for trading, if not, then we can reconsider our future course.

It will be interesting to see if our Scout finds anyone south of us and how far away they are. I have a feeling we may need Astronomy fairly early in this game. So, as soon as we get the opportunity somewhere, we should probably get a Scientist started, another reason to head for Writing.

And before the Blue City site will be of much value, we'll need Iron Working. Libraries in those Commerce cities should help speed research.

I think we need to be careful with Vassals as, with permanent war with Gandhi, it will kill trade opportunities and may lead to unbearable war weariness.

You know, I just remembered that part of the problem in the C-III version of this game was war weariness on Gandhi and his total loss of population because of it. I will tried to read up on C-IV war weariness. We're prolly going to need to use every war weariness mitigation technique we can to keep our cities productive later. The more resources we can claim or trade for, the happier we will be. Another reason to be wary of Vassals.

EDIT - Nice to see you back Gator.

 

[Frederiksberg]

After The Wheel, I would really like to consider going to Writing and chop Libraries instead of Obelisk. I think we need to get at least one Work Boat out scouting to see if we meet any other civs. If we do, then Alphabet for trading, if not, then we can reconsider our future course.

I'm not sure that Writing is that urgent. Our commerce cities have not been founded yet and that's where the Libraries will make a difference. There could be other considerations putting Sailing, IW or Mysticism higher on the list. Scouting with a wboat seems like a good idea - we could chop or whip one in Nidaros and send it north to look for other civs in the Indian part of our continent.

It will be interesting to see if our Scout finds anyone south of us and how far away they are. I have a feeling we may need Astronomy fairly early in this game. So, as soon as we get the opportunity somewhere, we should probably get a Scientist started, another reason to head for Writing.

Since we haven't met anyone else yet my guess is that we only have Genghis to the south. I met the mongolian scout after 5 turns so he must be close meaning that there could be competition for the blue and green city sites. I wouldn't be surprised if there's only us Genghis and Gandhi on our continent and that would make Optics a high priority to be able to start tech trading. Astronomy would be nice to get resource trades as well but it might be something that can wait. We should probably avoid researching Meditation in order to block a Great Scientist from lightbulbing Philo instead of Optics, Astro etc.

And before the Blue City site will be of much value, we'll need Iron Working. Libraries in those Commerce cities should help speed research.

IW should probably come before Writing so that we can get those gems hooked. If Genghis is as close as I expect we could also use some swords for an early attack.

I think we need to be careful with Vassals as, with permanent war with Gandhi, it will kill trade opportunities and may lead to unbearable war weariness.

I agree. We can't control what our Vassals do and we don't want them to attack Gandhi. Gandhi having vassals also look unfavourable unless they are small and insignificant anyway.

You know, I just remembered that part of the problem in the C-III version of this game was war weariness on Gandhi and his total loss of population because of it. I will tried to read up on C-IV war weariness. We're prolly going to need to use every war weariness mitigation technique we can to keep our cities productive later. The more resources we can claim or trade for, the happier we will be. Another reason to be wary of Vassals.

WW grows when you do combat on foreign territory WW

If we want to limit Gandhis WW (and I guess we do) we could try a blocade of his coastal cities. The AI are reluctant to do naval attacks coming out of a city for some odd reason (At least in the Vanilla version - don't know if this was fixed with the improved AI). Anyway it might be worth trying. We could build some triremes and park them outside his coastal cities in order to trap his forces and limit the actual combat as much as possible. If we allow Gandhi to come to us we won't have any WW but he will get a lot of it when he does fruitless attacks and loose units on enemy ground.

Any thought regarding wonders? I see two interesting options: The Oracle because it's a very efficient way of converting hammers to beakers and the Colossus because it's very cheap when we get copper hooked.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

I haven't tried it too many times on monarch yet, but what about an oracle sling to Machinery - doable?
When I have tried it, I've gone straight for BW and then Pottery --> MC, but I've made it every time...
With all the forests, hammers aren't a concern, but I doubt you can research the necessary techs to get there. Might be worth testing - even more so with zerks waiting with Machinery (only need an SGL for CS ).

 

[leif erikson]

We are in a tech race? Libraries increase beakers and that is what we will need. For me, I think we need to push out 2 to 3 settlers, with some Axes in between in order to claim the rich resources we see as quickly as possible to ensure they are ours. Libraries should be the first build in those commerce cities and we should chop them out as much as possible. Priority in those cities to growth and then commerce. Once we have our cities established and defended, then we can look towards Wonder builds and getting ourselves in a position for the next step.

Speaking of Wonders, I think Colossus would be very nice to have. I think The Great Library is important as well in a science race. While the Oracle would be nice, unless we can find a way to do some trading to pick up the necessary techs, researching that line kind of takes us away from the more necessary techs; Wheel, IW, Writing, Alphabet? Beyond this, our recons will prolly tell us what else will be important, like Optics?

While it probably sounds as though I am locked into this direction, I am open to other ways. But please explain the benefits of doing that as they are not obvious to me.

Good discussion, by the way. Thanks.

 

[Bede]

We need military and happiness techs, that is all. Take the path from Mysticism through the Oracle, then take Metal Casting (or Machinery) or Hereditary rule as the bonus.

Knowledge techs and the knoweldge wonders should go to the AI with the purpose of making it easier for Gandhi to acquire tech through trade from the AI. Researching it ourselves then spreading it around the world is not the most efficient way to accomplish that as the AI get research discounts while the human pays full price.

So rather than chasing the chimera of tech leadership, content outselves with staying in the middle of the pack, and trimming any beards that threaten to grow too long with wisdom.

Our empire should be built on the mundane basis of bread, circuses and blood. Let others gaze at stars and comtemplate the wonders ofthe galaxies until the time comes to cut them off at the knees.

 

[leif erikson]

OK, so we use our military techs to clear a path for Gandhi to expand and keep the other AI civs productive, so they can research and trade?

I guess I'm trying to figure out what our purpose is then, to get out of the way and manage the game to prevent anyone else from challenging Gandhi?

Perhaps this will be more dull than I thought?

 

[Frederiksberg]

We are in a tech race? Libraries increase beakers and that is what we will need. For me, I think we need to push out 2 to 3 settlers, with some Axes in between in order to claim the rich resources we see as quickly as possible to ensure they are ours. Libraries should be the first build in those commerce cities and we should chop them out as much as possible. Priority in those cities to growth and then commerce. Once we have our cities established and defended, then we can look towards Wonder builds and getting ourselves in a position for the next step.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't research Writing at some point to get those Libraries. They are, however, more important when we have a little higher pop and thus more gold available. The problem as I see it is, that if we research Writing now it will be too late to build the Oracle. In SGOTM3 we did some tests indicating that Oracle is often built after 100 turns around 1000BC. The path AH-Wheel-Myst-Poly-Priest takes around 50 turns now and probably less as we grow but it still means that there is no time for other techs in between. There could be reasons for choosing another path but it's important to realize that we must decide now. I'm not sure either that Library first is the best build in a new city. Granary first to speed growth could easily be better if we can get enough happiness. I know that Monuments are pretty dull things and I can assure you I wouldn't want any at home . In CIV, however, they are much cheaper than Libraries and will for that reason get that border expansion much faster. That's why I don't mind building a few Monuments early in the game.

Speaking of Wonders, I think Colossus would be very nice to have. I think The Great Library is important as well in a science race. While the Oracle would be nice, unless we can find a way to do some trading to pick up the necessary techs, researching that line kind of takes us away from the more necessary techs; Wheel, IW, Writing, Alphabet? Beyond this, our recons will prolly tell us what else will be important, like Optics?

Colossus is OK but not great since several of our early cities (blue & green) won't be working water tiles. But it's cheap with copper hooked. The religious techs are necessary to get Monarchy so we probably need them anyway at some point. Alphabet could easily be of little use now if we don't find more civs. If we decide to abandon the thought of building the Oracle and get the MC slingshot I would probably prefer a tech path like AH-Wheel-IW-Pottery-Writing. Maybe with Mysticism included somewhere if we need a border expansion. Pottery before Writing makes Writing less expensive and it opens up the possibility of building granaries. A granary in Nidaros would make slavery much more efficient. Discovery of IW will allow us to mine the gems. I would expect our 2nd settler to be ready by then (around 40 turns from now. Hmm... this does show that the Oracle strategy will really slow down our expansion

Another thought: We won't get access to copper before the nex border expansion of Nidaros 35 turns from now. We need to think carefully about barb defense or alternatively research Archery. Building some warriors and setting up a fog busting perimeter in the woods and jungle could be a solution that will work well until we can build axes. But we must not be too slow in doing this.

Knowledge techs and the knoweldge wonders should go to the AI with the purpose of making it easier for Gandhi to acquire tech through trade from the AI. Researching it ourselves then spreading it around the world is not the most efficient way to accomplish that as the AI get research discounts while the human pays full price.

You've got a point that we shouldn't be too greedy. On the other hand we probably need to tech fast towards Optics in order to open up tech trade not only for ourselves but also for Gandhi. Not being greedy is also why I suggested the naval blocade of Gandhi. We don't want him to get hit with lots of WW by attacking our cities if we can prevent it.

 

[rrau]

We need to come to a consensus on research before I can start. Wheel then IW in the short term?

 

[Bede]

Wheels and swords is the order of the day I think.

With AH in the bin we will know where the horses are - chariots are wonderful barb busters in Warlords. And Iron will make the gems productive and give us swords.

 

[leif erikson]

Wheels and swords is the order of the day I think.

Yes, I agree that this is the short term goal.

Good luck rrau!!

 

[Capt Buttkick]

I got my PC back before the weekend

AND I got a better video card than I had before: 512 MB instead of 256

Time to go dl the gotm and see what I can make of it, I guess

 

[Frederiksberg]

We need to come to a consensus on research before I can start. Wheel then IW in the short term?

I'm cool with that . Think about fogbusting and barb defense as well. And maybe the workboat scout. It would be nice if our second settler is built around the time when IW is discovered.

Going for IW most likely means that we abandon the Oracle in favor of faster expansion. The alternative would have been to not settle the jungle cities and instead settle a couple of more production cities in the northern part of the continent and then do an axe/sword rush on the cities Genghis might have settled in the jungle in the meantime. The fast expansion strategy is a "builder" strategy and probably a good choice since we might want to keep Genghis in the game for a while. After all he could be Gandhis only trading partner for some time.

Good luck with the turns!