SGOTM 05 - Fistful of Dynamite

[Munro]

Decision needed for next turn set
1. 100% run to Alphabet as soon as possible? I say yes
2. Keep Rice City as GP farm. I say yes as I think we still get Mathematics when we need it prior to researching construction and Mecca is a Hybrid city rather than GP farm.
3. Do we try and found another city this turn set. I think so but not sure where.. (Silver + iron Island City will be high upkeep due to distance)
4. Builds. We need more workers!!

Ralph

Sorry for the delay. Quick thoughts on the above:

1. Agree - then use to trade for peace with Toka and Qin ASAP

2. My current feeling is to use Mecca for the instead; it has +6 (+7 if we whip the library next turn for 2 pop after it grows to size 5) which is too much to use at the moment just working regular tiles (due to cap). Suggest we put it to use supporting 2 scientists instead, and get the extra pop and cottage growth in Rice City instead.

3. Yes, agree.
- If we can get peace with Qin and / or Toka once we have alpha, so WW is less of a problem, suggest another cottage city between Besh and Rice City as per the dot map posted earlier.
- If we can't get peace and WW is still a problem, suggest we found our cultural bridge city in the far SE so we can get across to Silver island so we can get the +1 from the silver. (The extra +1 or +2 'distance from palace' maintenance cost for this city will be more than compensated by being able to work an extra cottage tile in each of our cottage spam cities).

4. And settlers.. And some military (e.g. in Mecca) - since we can keep them on home soil for now and they won't incurr significant extra maintenance costs. And they'll be ready when we need them...

 

[Munro]

2. My current feeling is to use Mecca for the instead; it has +6 (+7 if we whip the library next turn for 2 pop after it grows to size 5) which is too much to use at the moment just working regular tiles (due to cap). Suggest we put it to use supporting 2 scientists instead, and get the extra pop and cottage growth in Rice City instead.

Note if we do this, (use Rice City as a cottage city) we may want to cottage the rice, to get the extra - as this city already has enough to work all of its tiles and the faster growth from the rice won't allow us to work other cottage tiles fast enough to compensate for the lost from the rice cottage.

 

[Munro]

Note - here's a link the most recent dot map.

View attachment 158437

I.e. next city either 1W of the banana (if we can get peace and reduce WW ), or 1S of the iron if not.

 

[Munro]

Xatsmann - I would say go ahead on the next turnset if you are happy with the current plan and want to play today - then your call on whether to use Mecca v. Rice City as city etc.

Otherwise we can wait to see if Manic or Ralph have any more input and see if we can get an overall consensus. (Manic / Ralph - any further thoughts?)

 

[xatsmann]

Munro,

I would rather wait to hear from Ralph and Manic and then your response. I'll explain below why I want to wait.

Here is what we agree on:

1. Run our research at 100% until we get to Alphabet

2. Build more settlers, workers, and military units in that order. As for the military units I assume it is still Axeman until we get swordsman or horse archers.

3. Found a new city.

4. Make peace with Qin or Toka if they will allow it, although this is unlikely.

Here is where we are still looking for agreement:

1. Where to build the new city. Do we want it on the SE or SW corner of our current island?

2. Where do we want our GP city Mecca or Ning-Hsia?

Ralph still is arguing a strong case for Mecca to be an output city with lots of cottages but Munro makes an equally strong case for making Mecca a GP farm. Both would use Ning-Hsia as the opposite from Mecca, either a GP or a production city. To be honest, I don't think I know enough yet about the Civ IV to make this call.

My interpretation of the two different arguments is as follows: Ralph is basing his case on the fact that Mecca is a better cottage city and Munro is looking at from the food/farm point of view and believes Mecca is a better food city than Ning-Hsia (and thus a more efficient GP farm.)

I'd like to hear from Ralph and Manic and get a consensus on these to questions. I'd also want to hear from Munro again, assuming we have time, after Ralph and Manic respond so we can reach an agreement. If I have to, I will decide these questions during my turn but I think we as a team will make a sounder decision than I would make alone.

 

[Ralph_Jackson]

Munro,

2. Build more settlers, workers, and military units in that order

1. Where to build the new city. Do we want it on the SE or SW corner of our current island?

2. Where do we want our GP city Mecca or Ning-Hsia?

My observations are as follows

2. Workers before Settlers. You will find yourself making hard compromises at the start of your turnset as to what you assign them to do -a sure sign we dont have enough. Pop one more at least before another settler as for most sites they have a lot of worker turns to get productive. If you build two workers then a settler this should complete the turnset and definitely dont need to go onto Military yet.

1. Next City. I would say 1W of the Bananas as that is a long term site so needs to be up early. Our Iron culture bridge city is important but only needs to give us a border pop to be largely complete so I would prioritise "cottage based jungle clearance" cities as they take a while to get going.

2. GP City I am now convinced re Mecca so whip the Librbary in for 2 pop at size 5 and start running them putting their beakers into Alphabet. It will be a few turns before the 100% run to Alphabet so switch to that to get us there quicker as soon as the geeks are assigned.

Enjoy

Ralph
Ralphbout

 

[xatsmann]

So I don't misinterpret what you are saying Ralph here is my take on your post:

You want me to make another worker before I build a settler and only workers after that, no military yet. I can hold off on building a settler at all if the team thinks we're not ready for another city at this time.

You also want the city on the SE corner of the island near the bananas tile.

Mecca is to be our GP city so I will change the farm on the rice next to Ning-Hsia to a cottage. I will also whip the Library at Mecca to completion and convert two citizens to scientist to improve our ability to research the Alphabet.

Manic and Munro, your thoughts please.

 

[Ralph_Jackson]

Sounds Right.

I would think two more workers before a settler and no Military this turnset. I doubt if you will get more out than that as Medina will spend most of its time on Missionaries and new cities will be occupied with a granary first. Now we dont need to be 100% spot on with these things as we will make use of any combination of workers, settlers and missionaries at the moment; I just feel you will want the workers "more". The no military is due to the fact that we wont be using them for a while and it just ties up valuable hammers. A case can be made for a Galley or two soon.

The next city is the one to the W of Bananas between Beshbalik and Ning Hsia as per the dot map posted by Munro a few replies earlier.

Re the rice farm I would let that farm complete so the city grows more quickly. We can convert it to cottage later but right now we gain more I feel from having it accelerate growth for a while. (If we hadn't already invested a couple of turns in farming it it migth be different but at the moment keeping it as a farm seems good). Keeping it as farm also helps the city produce workers & settlers later with its higher food surplus. Re Mecca spot on.

So that was a very long winded way of saying yes I think you understood my thoughts. Happy for you to wait for Munro / Manic comments if you wish but also to play as soon as you feel ready.

Enjoy

Ralph

 

[Munro]

All sounds good to me, and I think you have got the plan spot on - enjoy the turnset!

 

[xatsmann]

Here are my notes:

220 BC Turn 1
No peace from Toka or Qin
Moving missionary to Ning-hsia

205 BC Turn 2
Isabella wants us to go Buddhist, I tell her to get lost!
No peace


190 BC Turn 3
Peace overtures rejected
Workers begin clearing jungle north of Turfan to whip library

175 BC Turn 4
No peace

160 BC Turn 5
No peace

145 BC Turn 6
Forgot to switcn back research to 100% until now. We have 436 gold.
Spread hinduism to Ning-hsia
We pop a worker in Beshabalik and start another worker
We start to clear jungle on a hill next to Beshabalik
No peace

130 BC Turn 7
We pick up a Warrior when Turfan's boarders expand to include the village

We pop Hindu missonary in Mecca and start another worker

115 BC Turn 8
We finish the rice farm last turn next to Ning-Hsia and start to work on
clearing a jungle hill.
War weariness slowly declining in Mecca (+1 unhappiness) and Kharakorum (+2)

100 BC Turn 9
Clear forest and give 30 hammers to Mecca to finish library

85BC Turn 10
Toka loses Sarashan to barebarians!
Finish library at Mecca--change production to Lighthouse to increase food production
on water since this is to be our GP farm.

70 BC Turn 11
No peace
Sending Hindu missionary to Beshbalik to spread hinduism

55 BC Turn 12
No peace

40 BC Turn 13
No peace

25 BC Turn 14
No peace

10 BC Turn 15
No peace
Medina pops a worker and begins work on a settler
Medina begins work on mine on road between Medina and Mecca
sent ship back to Mecca coast to pick up settler when it is finished.
No peace

Here is the turn log:

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 220 BC to 10 BC:

Turn 152, 220 BC: The borders of Mecca have expanded!

Turn 153, 205 BC: Alexander adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 155, 175 BC: Isabella has completed The Parthenon!

Turn 157, 145 BC: Hinduism has spread in Ning-hsia.
Turn 157, 145 BC: Cyrus converts to Judaism!
Turn 157, 145 BC: Imhotep has been born in a far away land!

Turn 158, 130 BC: The borders of Turfan have expanded!
Turn 158, 130 BC: The villagers have provided you with a Warrior!

Turn 160, 100 BC: You have constructed a Library in Mecca. Work has now begun on a Barracks.
Turn 160, 100 BC: Satsuma has been captured by the Barbarian State!!!
Turn 160, 100 BC: Satsuma has been razed by the Barbarian State!!!

Turn 162, 70 BC: The Colossus has been built in a far away land!

Here is the save http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm5/Fistful_of_Dynamite_SG005_BC0010_01.Civ4SavedGame

I hope I did better this time

 

[xatsmann]

I messed up again....I researched code of laws instead of alphabet. I didn't even look at what was up there as I assumed we already had started alphabet.

I tried to switch on post-save copy but we'll lose all the reseach we did with code of laws...so I think we should finish that (9 turns) and then do alphabet.

I'll be more careful with research next time.

Sorry.

 

[Munro]

Good notes xatsmann - nice write-up.

Only initial thoughts from the write-up are that I'd been thinking we would tech Alphabet first (so we could then try to give away techs in exchange for peace with the AI) - but looks like we've been putting the towards CoL instead. Not sure if we now finish that off now or still want to switch to Alpha to help get peace....

Anyway, I'll open the save and post more detailed thoughts in a sec.

 

[Munro]

I messed up again....I researched code of laws instead of alphabet. I didn't even look at what was up there as I assumed we already had started alphabet.

I tried to switch on post-save copy but we'll lose all the reseach we did with code of laws...so I think we should finish that (9 turns) and then do alphabet.

I'll be more careful with research next time.

Sorry.

Looks like our posts crossed. Don't worry, xatsmann, mistakes like this will happen when we have many people playing the same game in turn....

Note though that we can still switch to Alphabet and the we already have towards CoL will be stored (more or less) until we come back to finish it off. So - we may still be better off switching to Alpha, since it looks like WW is still quite bad (e.g. +3 in Karakorum, size 4; +4 in Mecca, size 5). And although we are seeing some maintenance costs, the courthouses are quite expensive (180 ) and I'm not sure we need them just yet.

Thoughts everyone?

 

[Munro]

Note that with current we are still 30-40 turns away from Alphabet (25-30 turns at 100% before we have enough again for a 100% run to Alpha) - by which point we should also have the option of teching Construction instead, having lightbulbed Mathematics with our Great Scientist (25 turns from 2 scientist specialists).

So, we should probably run 100% again in the next turnset since we don't have enough to finish off CoL anyway (or tech alpha) and I'm not sure CoL is worth the (still significant) remaining investment at this phase of the game.

 

[Munro]

Other thoughts for the next turnset:

1. Mecca is in a bad way with +9 - only able to work 3 tiles and hasn't started working the scientist specialists yet.

Suggest we whip the lighthouse right away, which should remove 3 (-2 WW, -2 crowded, +1 whip cruelty) and allow us to assign 2 scientist specialists immediately, with +1 food still left over (and it should grow back to size 4 the next turn due to already in the granary). Maybe work the barracks for 1 turn (to allow growth to pop 4) then work on a settler.

2. Medina - about to build a settler, but I think we need to continue churning out missionaries instead to ensure and pop borders throughout our lands. Maybe whipping a granary as we reach the happiness cap to bring things back down to the zone.

3. Karakorum - I think it is right that we are emphasising cottage growth here, but can we whip a free library here (cost 1 pop, which is giving +2 and not working anyway). After that probably switch to build a 2nd settler, for the iron site or W sugar island (more cottages). Since we have quite a few workers now (can probably bring one up from Arabia as well - not sure both are needed down there).

4. Ning-hsia - do we want both farmed rice and mined hill? I think the cottage growth is more important than the in this city, so suggest switching the worker to cottage this hill instead (he has just started on the mine so no big waste). The farmed rice will allow us to whip some buildings if needed for a production boost here (or to control population).

Other interesting developments from looking at the save:

- Alex now has a city on Silver Island, not on a hill; should be an easy target

- barb movement there has also revealed a straight coastal bridge between Silver Island and Alex's homelands; so no need to worry about building culture-bridge city on the very eastern edge of Silver Island and popping a border; we can sail right across the old-fashioned way... (though still need a city 1S of the iron to get to Silver Island in the first place)

 

[Ralph_Jackson]

Nice report Xatsmann and the Alphabet mistake is just water under the bridge. I will look at the save tonight but I feel we must return to plan A of 100% until we can research Alphabet and get peace. I take it no AI has researched Alphabet yet?

Ralph

 

[Ralph_Jackson]

Apologies for not posting thoughts yet as I haven't had a chance to look at things properly so to cover my guilt at least I can attempt a roster!!

Xatsmann Just played
Manic UP
Munro On Deck
Ralph waiting in the wings..

Ralph

 

[Manic_]

Been away for a bit - back and see its my turn

Will look at save tonight and post thoughts - aiming to play fiday night or sat sometime.

Good Stuff guys.

 

[Munro]

Nice report Xatsmann and the Alphabet mistake is just water under the bridge. I will look at the save tonight but I feel we must return to plan A of 100% until we can research Alphabet and get peace. I take it no AI has researched Alphabet yet?

Ralph

Agree with this plan. I did check the save and unforuntately none of the AIs have Alphabet yet.

 

[Munro]

Also - I think we should stick with our current plan of settling 1W of the bananas with the next settler. If we pop 2 settlers in the next turnset, my vote would be for the iron site.

This will allow us to build any swords we want ahead of time, before we tech Construction. Then when we get Construction, we can switch to just cats with the rest of our invasion force already built.

Also - should keep trying to get OB back with Cyrus, for potential gems trading once the rice city pops its borders.