Munro
Deity
Note - I'm going to be away now until monday evening (it's a public holiday weekend here in the US) so please skip me if needed and I'll slot back into the roster when I get back.
SGOTM 05 - Fistful of Dynamite
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Couple of questions:
How do you ensure you have enough population to work the cottages--I see that we are experiencing this problem with regard to Mecca? I've tried to spam before and I always seem to run into the issue of having too many towns and not enough population to work them.
Second, where to we stand with barracks? Are we going to start emphasizing them once we get more workers out? Just how important are they?
Good point on whipping to get a building that will improve our happiness. I should have whipped that library out but I was worried about the unhappiness but as pointed out here it is a net +1.
I think we need to work on linking our cities by road so we can move our workers around easier as well as share our production. What do you guys thing?
How do you ensure you have enough population to work the cottages--I see that we are experiencing this problem with regard to Mecca? I've tried to spam before and I always seem to run into the issue of having too many towns and not enough population to work them.
Second, where to we stand with barracks? Are we going to start emphasizing them once we get more workers out? Just how important are they?
Good point on whipping to get a building that will improve our happiness. I should have whipped that library out but I was worried about the unhappiness but as pointed out here it is a net +1.
I think we need to work on linking our cities by road so we can move our workers around easier as well as share our production. What do you guys thing?
Ralph_Jackson
Emperor
Well the war weariness is artificially reducing the size of the cities once that has gone they all have sufficient food to grow gradually to the required size if we start early..
This is a good question and a judgement call. I tend to think if I am going to put 4 or more times the hammer cost of the barracks subsequently into military units its worthwhile which means early cities should probably get them later or hammer poor cities not. This is a personal view and others may well disagree.
Manic ETA for a report?
Ralph
Manic_
Prince
Sorry guys - Real Life in the way again - will play monday evening.
Manic_
Prince
MUNRO - Mecca - Suggest we whip the lighthouse right away
Yes
Medina - about to build a settler
Sending this to the mainland to go 1W of banana.
Then build missionaries.
Karakorum - Whip Lib. Build Settler.
Ning-hsia - Change worker to cottage the hill.
Turn to 100% Tax rate - will do this for 10 turns and see what happens.
****
Whipped Lib & Lighthouse. Changed worker to cottage the hill in the rice city.
Moved Galley for transport to mainland of the settler.
Also Changed to 100% GPT.
****
Building settler in Krak - Finishing RAX in Mecca - will work on settler next.
No peace or open boarders available.
****
I actually thing now that we are getting too many cities too quickly - we need to really develope our cottages fast.
****
Basically Enter Pressed for the most part until the end of my turnset at 200AD - The settler is over on the mainland - Gally can be moved back to get the next settler from mecca (Sleeping).
No Peace or Open Boarders available all through turnset.
Alpha probably almost researchable - We are getting very few GPT at the moment.
****
Yes
Medina - about to build a settler
Sending this to the mainland to go 1W of banana.
Then build missionaries.
Karakorum - Whip Lib. Build Settler.
Ning-hsia - Change worker to cottage the hill.
Turn to 100% Tax rate - will do this for 10 turns and see what happens.
****
Whipped Lib & Lighthouse. Changed worker to cottage the hill in the rice city.
Moved Galley for transport to mainland of the settler.
Also Changed to 100% GPT.
****
Building settler in Krak - Finishing RAX in Mecca - will work on settler next.
No peace or open boarders available.
****
I actually thing now that we are getting too many cities too quickly - we need to really develope our cottages fast.
****
Basically Enter Pressed for the most part until the end of my turnset at 200AD - The settler is over on the mainland - Gally can be moved back to get the next settler from mecca (Sleeping).
No Peace or Open Boarders available all through turnset.
Alpha probably almost researchable - We are getting very few GPT at the moment.
****
Manic_
Prince
Besh is 2 turns from boarder pop - cottage the banana.
Have 2 scientists on Mecca - loosing food but can easily run 1 turn at full food then 5-6 with 2 scientists.
Settler on way to 1W bananas (Not on go-to).
Another waiting in Mecca and 1 almost ready in Krak (What dot map are we using?
Anyway - i think we should not pop any more settlers at the moment we need to build up our cities more - i think getting drama ASAP will be far more useful than anything else - happy citizens are productive citizens afterall.
Have 2 scientists on Mecca - loosing food but can easily run 1 turn at full food then 5-6 with 2 scientists.
Settler on way to 1W bananas (Not on go-to).
Another waiting in Mecca and 1 almost ready in Krak (What dot map are we using?
Anyway - i think we should not pop any more settlers at the moment we need to build up our cities more - i think getting drama ASAP will be far more useful than anything else - happy citizens are productive citizens afterall.
Manic_
Prince
Munro
Deity
Hi folks - checking back in after my weekend away. At work right now but should have time this evening to look over Manic's turnset and post thoughts for the next turnset.
I assume I am still up next? Will post a 'got-it' once I get home and confirm I can open the save. Cheers,
I assume I am still up next? Will post a 'got-it' once I get home and confirm I can open the save. Cheers,
Ralph_Jackson
Emperor
Well my major comment is we have some poor selection of tiles to be worked going on (unless me loading the save changes tile assignments)
This is probably the worst as not working the gold mine is just plain daft. By Changing tile assignments I can get our + Gpt up from +4 to +17. This is huge and sorry if I appear critical but we must get better at this!! With this change in tile assignment we can immediately (but only just so no turns wasted) do a 100% 14 turn run for Alphabet. We would potentially need to delay using the settler for this or settle and recalculate due to increased maintenance.
Additionally.
Overflow in Mecca should go to galley not a Monastery IMHO (no turns invetsed so not a big issue).
Remember priority is Gold then Alphabet!!
This is probably the worst as not working the gold mine is just plain daft. By Changing tile assignments I can get our + Gpt up from +4 to +17. This is huge and sorry if I appear critical but we must get better at this!! With this change in tile assignment we can immediately (but only just so no turns wasted) do a 100% 14 turn run for Alphabet. We would potentially need to delay using the settler for this or settle and recalculate due to increased maintenance.
Additionally.
Overflow in Mecca should go to galley not a Monastery IMHO (no turns invetsed so not a big issue).
Remember priority is Gold then Alphabet!!
Munro
Deity
Agree with Ralph's comments above. Though I think we are still a few turns from Alphabet yet ...?- Even after switching to work the gold mine, we're still 12 turns away from Alphabet, losing -34
per turn. - So we will need 408 gold for a 100%
run. (12 x 34 = 408)- We currently have 295 gold so need another ~11 turns at 100%
(+11 per turn) before we can switch science back on. So ~23 turns away in total, unless I have 
? We will also get Mathematics around the same turn from the GS 
we pop in Medina (also 23 turns from now).I think it a fairly safe bet that we will then be able to get peace with either Toka / Qin or both, once we have Alpha (and Maths if required) to trade away, at which point our economy should leap substantially forwards.
In the meantime, primary focus of next turnset should be micromanaged cottage growth and economy boosting:
- Mecca: build gallery + work 2 scientist specialists (run -ve
for now: we should soon lose the 'cruel opression' +1 
and go +ve again)- Medina: more missionaries + switch to working wine cottage instead of grass cottage for extra
and less (we are already at the happiness cap so the extra food is counterproductive anyway)- Besh: as Manic suggests - work cottaged bananas after border pop in 2 turns; also cottage the hills (same in Ning-hsia) instead of mines, to emphasise
in our 'cottage' cities, not 
(specialization is the key)- Ning-hsia: also about to hit happiness cap, so whip library and work hill and river cottages instead of rice; (arguably we should cottage over the rice now - having whipped the library, the extra
isn't really helpful since we don't need the whip hammers, and we will keep hitting the happiness cap, which is counterproductive; probably cottage the dye first though and work that for the time being for even more gold and less ]- Turfan: work gold mine + rice; then cottage and work river plains for max commerce
- Karakorum: doing well; maybe switch from horse to 3rd cottage tile (extra commerce will be useful, but see war projection below)
- New cities: emphasise
for now by founding (i) 1W of rice, and (ii) 2W of clams (2N, 1W of stone). City (iii) could be more commerce on one of the Sugar Islands, or 1S of the Iron to start gearing up for war (on alex?) and access to Alex for pyramids and reduced WW + he's an easy, close target + get silver for +1 
)Note timeline for hooking up the iron and building swords would be as follows (not forgetting our ultimate objective here is to dominate as quickly as possible - we are not playing for the long term economy, just enough to get by...)
- 7-11 turns: build 3rd settler in Karakoum (depending on tile use in K)
- 7 turns; move to iron site and settle
- 5-6 turns; mine iron (assume road pre-built)
- 10-12 turns; build first couple of swords in Mecca / Turfan / Medina
- 14 turns; transport first swords from Arabia to Silver Island
I.e. total ~44 turns to get our first swords to Silver Island - easily more than the ~23 turns reqd to tech Alpha, sue for peace with Qin and Toka, and crank up our cottage production.
In short: while I think we are right to focus on economy in the very short term (and most importantly, peace with Toka and Qin), we are not that far (23 turns) from achieving this short term aim, and being ready for the next war. We should plan now to make sure we are ready when that time comes. Arguably we should even build the iron city 2nd instead of 3rd, to bring this timeline (and ultimate victory) forward a few turns...
Munro
Deity
In terms of that next war, would we agree that Alex is a good next target, since he is
- close
- weak: bottom of the power graph, nearest city not on a hill, has access to copper (as we can tell from the trade screen) so likely to be using phalanxes in defense instead of tougher archers etc
- sitting on the pyramids - a nice prize for hereditary rule or police state reduced
- sitting on silver for another +1
?
Should be able to take Alex's first city on Silver Island without cats: given the likely mixed phalanx / archer defense, lack of hill, and low cultural defence, 2-4 swords should do it (with our several well-promoted axes as backup).
No doubt we will then want cats for his capital, but by this stage we will have had another 20-30 turns (since alphabet and maths) of accumulated 100% gold, plus whatever we capture from this first greek city - so should be set for a 100% run to construction at this point.
Seem like a sensible plan for the next phase once we get beyond our current financial woes?
- close
- weak: bottom of the power graph, nearest city not on a hill, has access to copper (as we can tell from the trade screen) so likely to be using phalanxes in defense instead of tougher archers etc
- sitting on the pyramids - a nice prize for hereditary rule
or police state reduced - sitting on silver for another +1
?
Should be able to take Alex's first city on Silver Island without cats: given the likely mixed phalanx / archer defense, lack of hill, and low cultural defence, 2-4 swords should do it (with our several well-promoted axes as backup).
No doubt we will then want cats for his capital, but by this stage we will have had another 20-30 turns (since alphabet and maths) of accumulated 100% gold, plus whatever we capture from this first greek city - so should be set for a 100%
run to construction at this point.Seem like a sensible plan for the next phase once we get beyond our current financial woes?
Munro
Deity
In terms of next turnset though, it looks like decisions are:
1. 100% until we have enough for 100% run to alpha
2. micromanage for and cottage growth
3. use settlers for 2 more cottage cities + iron city / cultural bridge to alex (in that order)
4. keep trying cyrus for OB and gems; Toka and Qin for peace (we can dream)
I should be able to play my turnset tomorrow eve (wed pm, US eastern) if that's enough time for everyone to post any additional thoughts before then?
1. 100%
until we have enough for 100% run to alpha2. micromanage for
and cottage growth3. use settlers for 2 more cottage cities + iron city / cultural bridge to alex (in that order)
4. keep trying cyrus for OB and gems; Toka and Qin for peace (we can dream)
I should be able to play my turnset tomorrow eve (wed pm, US eastern) if that's enough time for everyone to post any additional thoughts before then?
Munro
Deity
Here's the dot-map again for reference - still looks to be a sensible balance of cottage-able tiles per city I think; assume everyone still ok with this?
I'm not sure about Drama - peace with Qin and Toka should take care of the WW
and the would be better spent on launching the war early. The earlier we start, the less resistance we will encounter, and we will capture techs as we go. Plus once the war is underway, we will likely not have much spare to run much above 0% 
anyway...Re: settlers, while 3 is a good number for now, there are some good cottage sites on the sugar islands that we should look to longer term. The cottages should more than cover the extra maintenance costs (esp. once happiness cap is removed by peace with Qin / Toka) and we can't really build up our cities more in the meantime - we are limited in size by the happiness cap, and in buildings by our tech rate (after granary and library, nothing interesting until colosseum with Construction).
So more settlers in due course should be a good way of controlling pop growth in happiness-capped cities, and gently expanding our economy in the meantime... (IMHO
)Ralph_Jackson
Emperor
Will have a proer look at your comments tonight but I agree with the headline plan for the next turnset. Lets keep a close eye on +/- GPT each turn so that the Alphabet comes in a.s.a.p. Don't forget if Qin / Toku get it before us life will be harder so time is of the essence.
Munro can you double check the 100% caluclation you made as you refer to +11 GPt where we are not ready for a 100% run but I think we can MM up to + 17GPt (obviously sacrificing food and hammers to get extra gold)when we are ready now and hence get Alphabet sooner!. (Haven't double checked the save as in work so might be )
Munro can you double check the 100% caluclation you made as you refer to +11 GPt where we are not ready for a 100% run but I think we can MM up to + 17GPt (obviously sacrificing food and hammers to get extra gold)when we are ready now and hence get Alphabet sooner!. (Haven't double checked the save as in work so might be
)
Munro
Deity
Munro can you double check the 100% caluclation you made as you refer to +11 GPt where we are not ready for a 100% run but I think we can MM up to + 17GPt (obviously sacrificing food and hammers to get extra gold)when we are ready now and hence get Alphabet sooner!. (Haven't double checked the save as in work so might be
Yes - will MM as far as possible to bring this in early.
The only compromise I am hesitant of is not working the horses in Karakorum, since that will delay K's settler and thus our iron city / greek war by several turns; I'm not sure the net effect of the extra few
during those 7 turns (possibly getting alpha a turn earlier) is enough to make up for the 4 turns headstart we will lose on the military campaign... maybe depends on how many turns it will take to tech Construction once the first greek city is taken (i.e. will we have to pause after the first greek city anyway); I will try to take a closer look at the numbers when I get home from work.Thoughts on that though anyone?
Ralph_Jackson
Emperor
Ok Munro the following chnages give us + 17gpt without delaying the settler.
Medina Mine to Wine +3 (plus cottage to horse for more hammers but no extra gpt)
Mecca Pigs to Clams +2
Karakorum leave unchanged to get Settler on time
Beshbalik Mine to cottage + 1
Turfan Stone to Gold + 7
Total change + 13 giving us +17gpt
I know you would have puzzled this out but worth putting down in a post
This will be enough in 4 turns to give us an 11 turn run to alphabet which feels like a turnset to me.
I also think the workers building a cottage for Mecca might switch to building one(s) for Medina so it can stablise at size 4 when it next grows (if we get no more WW) while generating more commerce.
Enjoy
Ralph
Medina Mine to Wine +3 (plus cottage to horse for more hammers but no extra gpt)
Mecca Pigs to Clams +2
Karakorum leave unchanged to get Settler on time
Beshbalik Mine to cottage + 1
Turfan Stone to Gold + 7
Total change + 13 giving us +17gpt
I know you would have puzzled this out but worth putting down in a post
This will be enough in 4 turns to give us an 11 turn run to alphabet which feels like a turnset to me.
I also think the workers building a cottage for Mecca might switch to building one(s) for Medina so it can stablise at size 4 when it next grows (if we get no more WW) while generating more commerce.
Enjoy
Ralph
Munro
Deity
Ok Munro the following chnages give us + 17gpt without delaying the settler.
Medina Mine to Wine +3 (plus cottage to horse for more hammers but no extra gpt)
Mecca Pigs to Clams +2
Karakorum leave unchanged to get Settler on time
Beshbalik Mine to cottage + 1
Turfan Stone to Gold + 7
Total change + 13 giving us +17gpt
I know you would have puzzled this out but worth putting down in a post
This will be enough in 4 turns to give us an 11 turn run to alphabet which feels like a turnset to me.
I also think the workers building a cottage for Mecca might switch to building one(s) for Medina so it can stablise at size 4 when it next grows (if we get no more WW) while generating more commerce.
Enjoy
Ralph
Sounds good to me. Will play the turnset tonight and next time I post here's hoping we are a newly peaceful nation... (until Greece...
)
Munro
Deity
Well, played 14 turns and we have Alpha, but no peace...
Highlights:
- gems trade with Cyrus for pig
- founded the 2 planned cottage cities + iron city
- Toka is tech leader, and researched Alpha the same turn we did ... so no peace with Japan
- Qin is most backwards in tech, and wants Alpha + Polytheism; but won't trade for peace either
- all AIs now have Maths = lots of free barb (we're only 18 turns away from getting it free, so probably not now worth our lightbulb).
In more detail:
Here's the save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm5/Fistful_of_Dynamite_SG005_AD0410_01.Civ4SavedGame
Here's the session Turn Log from 200 AD to 410 AD:
This post getting rather long so will post thoughts on next steps separately... !
Highlights:
- gems trade with Cyrus for pig
- founded the 2 planned cottage cities + iron city
- Toka is tech leader, and researched Alpha the same turn we did ... so no peace with Japan
- Qin is most backwards in tech, and wants Alpha + Polytheism; but won't trade for peace either
- all AIs now have Maths = lots of free barb
(we're only 18 turns away from getting it free, so probably not now worth our lightbulb).In more detail:
Spoiler :
in our cities) but the gems give us a nice +1 
Here's the save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm5/Fistful_of_Dynamite_SG005_AD0410_01.Civ4SavedGame
Here's the session Turn Log from 200 AD to 410 AD:
Spoiler :
This post getting rather long so will post thoughts on next steps separately... !
Munro
Deity
General thoughts on our current position:
- peace with Toka / Qin still looks unlikely in the short term
- we could try gifting copper / meditation to Cyrus in the hope he'll trade horseback riding (which Qin still needs) but that seems unlikely as it's a military tech
- boosting our power ranking may help secure peace (we are currently bottom of the power graph along with Cyrus)
- there seems little point in lighbulbing maths now that we are already 2/3rds of the way there for free even on 0% science (and will be even closer - 8 turns - by the time our GS pops in another 10 turns); instead, suggest we either (i) save the GS for the next tech (I think it's compass, which Qin has but Toka still needs; might swing the balance?) or (ii) switch Mecca to run a priest specialist instead and pray (sorry) for a GP instead and build the hindu holy shrine for an extra +10 per turn (or whatever the next GP tech is, if it looks useful; edit - next GP lightbulb tech would be monotheism (12 turns at 0% science) then theology, though Toka might already have it)
- meanwhile, switch Mecca, Medina and Samarqand over to military production and gear up for war with either Qin (ultimately to secure peace + fur) or Alex (to secure silver + the pyramids for Hered Rule or Police State reduced WW).
- there's a nice mix of religions on the mainland (Izzie and Alex both have their own religion, Toka and Cyrus share budhism) so vague possibilty of some sparks there from most likely Izzie. If she attacks Toka that might help us get peace...
Benefits of attacking Alex:
- we can get there easily (Qin would require another city + border pop on that forest island NE of Karakorum)
- we get an additional resource quickly (silver); Qin's fur is a little way away
- generally a soft target; low on the power graph, likelihood of phalanxes instead of archers, cities isolated by water etc.
- more or less unlimited extra from hereditary rule once we capture pyramids (or reduced WW from Police State - but if we are truly maxxed out it may not help?)
Benefits of attacking Qin:
- no need to worry about extra WW while we fight the campaign (whereas Alex would bring, temporarily, a third source of WW)
- eventually we can get peace with him!
Overall though I am concerned about the time it will take to get up to China (and how advanced he will become in this time), and how tough a target he will be to take on in his heartlands (and us without catapults initially).
My gut feel at this point is to therefore
- attack Alex ASAP (hook up iron, take swords and our existing promoted axes); take (and keep) his isolated first city, use the plunderedto tech Construction for catapults, sue for temporary peace, then take Athens with cats to get pyramid and hered rule (or representation / police state)
- continue to live with the WW in the meantime, keep our 2 scientist specialists in Mecca to get GS as planned, lightbulb Compass in the hope of using it (plus an improved power graph) to buy peace with Toka - or switch to priest specialist though if he techs it in the meantime (or switch now if we think peace with Toka is unlikely by this route)
Need to give it some more thought though. Everyone else's thoughts at this stage?
- peace with Toka / Qin still looks unlikely in the short term
- we could try gifting copper / meditation to Cyrus in the hope he'll trade horseback riding (which Qin still needs) but that seems unlikely as it's a military tech
- boosting our power ranking may help secure peace (we are currently bottom of the power graph along with Cyrus)
- there seems little point in lighbulbing maths now that we are already 2/3rds of the way there for free even on 0% science (and will be even closer - 8 turns - by the time our GS pops in another 10 turns); instead, suggest we either (i) save the GS for the next tech (I think it's compass, which Qin has but Toka still needs; might swing the balance?) or (ii) switch Mecca to run a priest specialist instead and pray (sorry) for a GP instead and build the hindu holy shrine for an extra +10
per turn (or whatever the next GP tech is, if it looks useful; edit - next GP lightbulb tech would be monotheism (12 turns at 0% science) then theology, though Toka might already have it)- meanwhile, switch Mecca, Medina and Samarqand over to military production and gear up for war with either Qin (ultimately to secure peace + fur
) or Alex (to secure silver + the pyramids for Hered Rule or Police State reduced WW).- there's a nice mix of religions on the mainland (Izzie and Alex both have their own religion, Toka and Cyrus share budhism) so vague possibilty of some sparks there from most likely Izzie. If she attacks Toka that might help us get peace...
Benefits of attacking Alex:
- we can get there easily (Qin would require another city + border pop on that forest island NE of Karakorum)
- we get an additional
resource quickly (silver); Qin's fur is a little way away- generally a soft target; low on the power graph, likelihood of phalanxes instead of archers, cities isolated by water etc.
- more or less unlimited extra
from hereditary rule once we capture pyramids (or reduced WW from Police State - but if we are truly maxxed out it may not help?)Benefits of attacking Qin:
- no need to worry about extra WW while we fight the campaign (whereas Alex would bring, temporarily, a third source of WW)
- eventually we can get peace with him!
Overall though I am concerned about the time it will take to get up to China (and how advanced he will become in this time), and how tough a target he will be to take on in his heartlands (and us without catapults initially).
My gut feel at this point is to therefore
- attack Alex ASAP (hook up iron, take swords and our existing promoted axes); take (and keep) his isolated first city, use the plundered
to tech Construction for catapults, sue for temporary peace, then take Athens with cats to get pyramid and hered rule (or representation / police state)- continue to live with the WW in the meantime, keep our 2 scientist specialists in Mecca to get
GS as planned, lightbulb Compass in the hope of using it (plus an improved power graph) to buy peace with Toka - or switch to priest specialist though if he techs it in the meantime (or switch now if we think peace with Toka is unlikely by this route)Need to give it some more thought though. Everyone else's thoughts at this stage?
Manic_
Prince
Ok - got the net back working now - will have a look at what people have said - from Ralphs first comment - i was running rice and gold then i must have fiddled on that turn. As i was reasigning tiles on all cities to see what was going on - must have missed it to change back.
