SGOTM 05 - Fistful of Dynamite

[AlanH]

Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 5 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game
You are Temujin, Leader of the Mongolian Hordes. You have tired of fighting the Barbarians, and so this time you have decided to join them instead. You will win a glorious victory in this Monarch game, of course, but you are teamed with the Barbarians, and you have to adapt to Barbarian assets and liabilities:

• You have no starting techs.
• The barbs are your friends, and are fighting on your team.
• You will benefit from the Barbarian capability to explore the world in animal and human form.
• You can research, but you will also learn techs that the Barbarians learn.
• .... And you start off at war with everyone on the planet except the Barbarians. You can make peace with anyone.

The Objective
This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special map, at Epic speed, against 7 rivals. All victory conditions are enabled, and the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the earliest victory date in the game.

Versions
This game will be played in Civilization IV version 1.74, using special HoF Mod 1.74.SGOTM5.

Schedule
Start files for each team will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page at midnight, server local time, at the start of July 25.

I propose that you aim to complete this game in three months, that is by the end of October 2007.

Starting Position
Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.



Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Temujin of Mongolia
Rivals - 7: China, Japan, India, Arabia, Spain, Persia and Greece
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Special, sort of a fractal archipelago
Environment - Temperate climate, medium sea level
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - Normal
Barbarians - Raging, and teamed with the Mongols
Permanent Alliances - Not Enabled
City Razing - Enabled

Notes

• Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.
  
• Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher. The number of awards will depend on the number of teams.
  
• All teams must play the sponsored variant - awards will be given to teams who achieve victories in the least turns.
  
• All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Please enjoy the game

 

[Munro]

Checking in.

 

[Munro]

Unfortunately I'm heading out of town this weekend, but will check back in on monday or tuesday evening (US eastern). Feel free to start without me if needed.

Looking forward to it, though I saw that you were still finishing up SGOTM 04 so no rush!

 

[monkspider]

monkspider, checking in. This will be my first succession game I have played in (though i have read quite a few!) so try to forgive any egregious mistakes I may make.

 

[Manic_]

checking in - shame only me and Ralph from SGOTM4 playing this time - anyway, we have just finished that so we should be able to get a roster up this weekend.

Any thoughts on the save - not looked yet.

 

[Ralph_Jackson]

Just to say I am on holiday until 3rd August with intermittent Internet Access , I will have a ook at the save and post thoughts if I can...

Suggest Manic proposes a Roster and we wait till we have all looked at the save and shared our thoughts before playing.

Welcome to Munro andMonkspider... What sort of level do you normally play at?

Ralph

 

[Manic_]

Well only 4 of us checked in so far - so i'll go as far as to say that as some of you have not played a sgotm before then i'll start and ralph will go second, then Munro followed by monkspider.

General form is 15 turns per player - depending on what is going on & if there is a major event in the game.

 

[Manic_]

obviously need to have a look at getting the mod to work though :s

 

[Manic_]

OK, finally got mine to work - this is what i think.

Even though we are at war with other covs, we dont have to worry about the barbs - so initial military is not a biggie.
I would suggest settling in place, build warrior and explore.
Then build worker then another warrior.

Techs - now barbs get free tech points when a civ researches a tech - so i think the more ai friendly techs like the religious ones we can bypass at the start - i think going for CoL or Theo to get a religion would be a better move.

Even though military isnt a massive imperative at the start, it soon might be, as -6 modifier with all ai is quite bad for relations.

I would suggest getting hunting first (leads to both Archery & AH so we can make use of the pigs) and also see if we have a chance at keshik raiding early doors.

I propose i play a few turns (Settle in place, build warrior & scout) then return when warrior is built to show map to hopefully gain some ideas.

I also think with the barbs we can get animals as units!? If so i vote a few panthers and bears

I'll play the initial turns tomorrow (Tuesday) evening if nobody objects.

Manic_

 

[Munro]

Hi Folks. Just back from my weekend out of town and checking in again...

Starting order sounds good but maybe hold off a few more days so we can discuss general strategy and overall plan before starting?

General thoughts here:

I would imagine the fastest victories are certain to be early conquest (or domination) wins. Given the archipelago map, we should be able to reach most (if not all) civs with just galleys, allowing an early axe / sword rush. The free barbarian techs mean we don't need to worry about falling too far behind in science.

In terms of barbarian team specials, a couple of things I noticed from my practice game (and the pre-game discussion thread):

1. After the first few turns, animals (and other barbarian units) will start to appear randomly in far-flung corners of the map and reveal the locations of the other civs (see screenshot).

View attachment 157049

2. As the barbarian team, we can't use goody huts - so probably no point in building any extra scouts in this game (looks like we start with one though).

3. Diplomacy. This isn't necessarily going to be a huge problem; in my practice game, after about 40 turns, I was able to make peace with all the civs except Tokugawa and Saladin (before I had officially met any of them yet), so war-weariness should not be a major concern; if we are aiming for an early conquest win, then we will be DOW'ing again shortly anyway; also, with an archipelago map type, it should take the other civs longer to meet each other (and start trading techs and religions) plus it seems there is no 'mutual struggle' bonus for war with a barbarian team, so no real reason to fear any particular AI mutual co-operation.

View attachment 157050

So, with this in mind, I'd be inclined towards an aggressive start with first objective to eliminate our 1st neighbour as quickly as possible (start as we mean to go on ) with initial objectives including
- tech to bronzeworking
- settle a 2nd city on copper (assuming not in our initial city cross)
- identify our nearest neighbour for elimination.
If copper not within initial lands, then tech to AH / IW and use keshiks or swordsmen instead (swords probably preferable for city conquest and archipelago map - though horses possibly a safer bet given non-random map).

Initial techs would be: mining, bronzeworking
Initial builds:
(i) warrior (explore then city defense on front line if other civ on our initial island/continent),
(ii) worker (mine the pig hill, then chop),
(iii) settler (found copper city)
Land use: pig hill (mined -> food with early production bonus; we can convert to pasture later), then grassland forests; should give decent production early on for initial axe rush

Thoughts on this? Early military expansion as path to fastest conquest?

 

[Munro]

@ Ralph - thanks for the welcome! Looking forward to playing with you guys.

Normally play on Emperor, but with warlords - so may be a bit rusty on some of the vanilla-specific tactics... sounds like they will make our job slightly easier here though - worker-baiting and so-on; plus axe rush need fear no chariots...

 

[Manic_]

Good points Munro,

Never knew random barbs would appear - but i guess that should be the case.

Also on the Domination front - barb cities will count towards our land. So a quick dom win should be the best bet - unless all ai is reachable, of the islands are quite random.

& yeah i'll can wait until weds but going warrior - worker, and teching mining - BW as you suggest would probably be the same start for most so doing that anyway probably wont matter too much.

I'll play later in the evening if i do though. in about 4-5 hours time. Or tomorrow if there is an opposition to this.

 

[Munro]

No objections to the starting plan - though should we wait for Ralph and monkspider to weigh in?

Or you could start by moving scout W,SW and post a screenie in the meantime, in case there any interesting city-site choices to be made? Ok by me though if you just want to get started instead.

Should be an interesting first turnset as I guess we will see a fair cross-section of the map revealed by the lions etc. Will be interesting to see if there are any surprises with the coastline etc.

Bring on the !!!

 

[Manic_]

Ok, Started off by moving scout W then SW.
Did't reveal much - see below, so desided to settle in place.



After settling I see we are on a peninsular. With Jungle to the south.



Start on warrior and mining. Go off to explore.



Enter pressed until boarder push. We now Can get the banana on the river.

Looks like we will have to get IW fairly quick as there is a lot of jungle to the south.

3730BC - The Barbarians arrive!



We see a lot of the world - i think exploring will be quite quick.



We have Arabian AI to the south



And Greek & Indian on the other continent to the East.

SAVE

 

[Manic_]

Not sure what we need so selected Roads Next. I know that we wanted BW but if we are on our own island it is not as important ASAP.

And we will need roads to connect copper anyway.

Spoiler :

Turn 0, 4000 BC: Karakorum has been founded.

Turn 7, 3790 BC: The borders of Karakorum have expanded!

Turn 11, 3670 BC: You have discovered Mining!

Think we should explore if there is a land bridge to the AI in the south, and then see if we want to go BW then Sailing or visa versa.
Think this may take longer than most ppl think as islands seem fairly spread. Although i think we can conquest by knights.

If we are on an island we dont need much military - only enough for happy bonus. As no barb attacks.

 

[Munro]

Nice work manic - thanks for the screenshots.

Good point about roads. However, if we are on an island, do we still need them at this stage? Since we would need sailing anyway for galleys, we could settle directly on the copper (probably a good idea anyway since it saves at least 5-10 turns of mining and building roads) and then connect up to the capital via trading on the coast?

With another 5-10 turns or so saved researching roads, this could give us altogether a 15-20 turn headstart on the first AI - quite significant in the early game.

Alternatively, if we do find a landbridge to Saladin, we haven't lost anything by going straight to BW (which we need regardless) and can still come back and research roads later. (In fact, it should also be slightly cheaper this way around as well due to the barb accumulated against roads in the interim - though not sure if this will really turn out to be a significant factor).

So either way, it would suggest tech'ing BW next, to locate and settle on the copper, then following up with either roads or sailing depending on whether we are by ourselves on the island.

As a backup, if no accessible copper revealed, plan B is probably to just continue on to IW and use iron instead, for slightly later (but more powerful) initial invasion force.

What do you think?

 

[Munro]

Thought I'd give this strategy a quick shot using the test game posted by LtC in the pre-game discussion thread, to see how our aggressive starting strategy would work out with these settings.

Exploration revealed an island start, so:

1. Tech straight to mining, BW, fishing, sailing;
- meanwhile, the free barb really starts to kick in on the earlier techs and we get Roads and Hunting for free a couple of turns later:

View attachment 157318

2. settler founded 2nd city directly on nearby copper + start building axe immediately; captial builds barracks and succesfully gets access to copper once sailing discovered.

3. chop / whip galley, and ship over intial warrior + axe around turn 80 (1600BC);
- tokugawa 2nd city has 2 archers
- capital has 2 archers + worker

View attachment 157319

No problem, we already have another coupla axes waiting back on the mainland.

4. Turn 90: we have 3 or 4 axes outside Osaka; it falls without loss; Kyoto falls another 10 turns later (2 losses at 8% soften the defenders; then 2 lucky wins at 30% and 50%).

View attachment 157320

Anyway, I think this suggests that the basic strategy will work, that we can ignore roads, hunting etc. to start with, and get a Galley of axes around turn 60 or 70.

Other thoughts from this quick test game:

i) I'm not sure that settling directly on the copper helped all that much for the island start, since there's about 20-30 turn wait to tech sailing; plenty of time to mine the copper (then link up at the end with the free / cheap roads tech).

So may be just as good to settle next to the copper, if it provides a better short-term city location (or is required to link copper to the coast)! Then mine the copper and any useful hills, partial-chop any forests (assuming that is not disallowed?) build 1/2 price barracks in both cities and grow population while we wait for free-roads and sailing.

Then when sailing arrives, we can chop / whip a galley and first few axes (combat1, CR1/cover promoted), and knock out Saladin before he knows what hit him (maybe get a religion with it too, knowing Saladin)

ii) Initial combat odds for combat1 axe against (non-hill, non-promtion) 25% city-fortified archer were 59%, increasing to maybe 70%+ with Cover promotion (67% with CR1), so 1/2 price barracks probably is justified for these first two cities.

iii) Tokugawa twice attacked me outside his city with one of his two city-fortified archers (against combat 1 axe on flat terrain), even though his odds were only 5% or so. Great help since he only had 2 archers in the city at the time - I then took both cities easily with only 1 defender left each. He didn't do it from his capital, but worth trying this tactic otherwise (put one as-yet-unpromoted axe on flat ground next to the city if it has 2 or more archers, and see if the AI takes the bait).

Not sure if Tokugawa is just an idiot, but maybe Saladin will fall for it as well.

iv) At one point, Tokugawa had 3-4 archers + settler in his capital; I withdrew from 3 squares to 4 squares away and next turn they had moved out (and became easy bait, as did the weakened capital); a classic vanilla civ AI exploit; looks like it still works with this 1.71 patch

v) by turn 100, the barbs had founded a couple of interesting looking cities as well; on archipelago setting, they may be more likely to survive than normal (including one on our island that looks useful);

View attachment 157321

Looks like another minor factor in favour of our planned strong early military rush, since barbs will meantime build extra cities for the team; (wonder if we will get benefit from strategic resources they / we link up within barb cultural borders)?

vi) By turn 100, there are a couple of barb galleys roaming around as well; we should hopefully find out fairly early whether astronomy will be required for the eventual win:

View attachment 157323

Anyway - looks like this opening strategy should work Ok and hopefully give us a key head start if we want to go ahead with it!

 

[Munro]

Update: looks like the combat odds increase from 59.2% to 68.6% with Cover promotion, against unpromoted, fortified archer in a city (not on a hill).

View attachment 157324

Those 1/2 price barracks are probably still worth it though in the first couple of cities...

 

[Manic_]

Sounds ok - forgot that protective is a warlords trait...

I think go BW now - as you said we can allways get sailing and have trade routs on the coast/rivers.

Settling on Copper would be ok - but i like the hammer bonus, especially if there are not any hills. Although this is not a problem after MC, it may be at the start.

Perhaps Munro could play the next turnset as Ralph is away until tomorrow. And has probably not unpacked yet!

 

[Munro]

Yeah, me too - was pleasantly surprised to see completely unpromoted archers waiting for us in Tokagawa's first few cities.

Am happy to go next unless we hear from Ralph in the meantime. I'll take a look now and check I can open up the save ok.