SGOTM 05 - Gypsy Kings

[hellwitch]

Few words more:
I don't like this one city Alex he is up to something (wonder or maybe even invasion force). I really don't believe that in this game there is a buged AI. And we have peace option for him now(it can disappear later). From this peace we can only have benefits so i think we must make peace with Alex.

Other point: if Qin goes for the mids this will be the shortest wonder race . Lets hope he wont go or will go for the oracle,the wall .or something else.
About the cities location : i think that beshbalik culture will prevent a barb city on bridge city #2 (in the east). IMO the copper city must go first then the bridge in the west and i prefer to finish that worker in karak as many times 1 turn is the difference between a wonder and a pile of gold. And we allway will have the 2nd bridge option as reserve.

 

[hellwitch]

mids in Besh right away. Work rice to build up food supply while we quarry the stone. Upload just before pop 3

dV

31 is the exact food we need

 

[da_Vinci]

few notes: if we finish the worker in karak the start new settler we will get the mids 1 turn earlier because this worker can go directly for the stone
and will work with the first worker on the connection roads for 2 turns= 2 turns earlier stone access= 2 turn with +16 hammers instead of 8 which make
16 hammers bonus on the mids=1 turn earlier. The point is that i fill that every turn could be vital.

We may have cross-posted.

What do you think of R1's road trick? Otherwise, it looks like your plan and his/my plan are pretty similar up to the point of deciding on growing to pop 2 or not. Do you agree with that assessment?

Bringing the second worker down to speed quarry makes sense to me.

Since you feel that evey turn is vital, do you agree that if we could get away with it, pop 3 is better because working the stone, gold and river plain stagnates our pop at 3 and gets us 18 hpt? Looks to me that we can shave off 3 turns with that.

Of course, we would have to get the WW under control. If we could make enough peace at turn 14, before we grow to pop 3, would you then favor going with the pop 3 plan?

I think we agree up to the 31 food in the bin at Besh point (a few turns before pop 3, and after 14 turns of play, it appears), so if g_s plays up to that, we can reassess the pop 2 or pop 3 decision at that time. How does that sound?

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

I don't like this one city Alex he is up to something (wonder or maybe even invasion force). I really don't believe that in this game there is a buged AI. And we have peace option for him now(it can disappear later). From this peace we can only have benefits so i think we must make peace with Alex.

I agree, peace with Alex now. Clearly, his culture is bigger than his island, so nothing barbs can do there.

dV

 

[hellwitch]

Yes it is clear that if we can support 3pop it will be better but we cant. See the pucture from the example OCC how the WW grow in these ages:...
and pay attention on how the WW grows for 1 to 4 beween 1000BC and 600BC. And yes they have 4pop and 5pop but the 1pop diference give exactly +1 WW.

 

[da_Vinci]

Yes it is clear that if we can support 3pop it will be better but we cant. See the pucture from the example OCC how the WW grow in these ages:...
and pay attention on how the WW grows for 1 to 4 beween 1000BC and 600BC. And yes they have 4pop and 5pop but the 1pop diference give exactly +1 WW.

Are we sure that we can't support pop 3 if we can make peace with about half of the AI? Suppose we make peace with Alex now, and at turn 14, before pop grows, we can make peace with 4 more, and WW goes to 0 at pop 2. In that case, can we support pop 3?

In your OCC example, were you capturing cities? That adds the most to WW per the war academy article

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/war_weariness.php

Since we don't expect the barbs to be taking cities, maybe with enough peace we could afford pop 3 in Besh?

I do agree that if we can't get peace with a majority of AI at turn 14, we can't go to pop 3.

dV

 

[g_storrow]

I hate to change my mind but I think the iron might change or plans with the placement of the 3rd city as if it falls on a nice tile we might want that in our HE site. but as you say

Assuming that iron won't show up in jungle grass, seems unlikely to find it close enough to copper to change our city site.

so changed my mind again I think copper site first. I agree with worker first from karak also.

 

[hellwitch]

so we have consensus on the first 14turns (till Bashbalik gets 31 food):
- finnish the worker in karak
- peace with Alex
- settle W of the copper
- finish the rice
- start quarry as possible
- start the pyramids in Bash
- Bash will work gold+rice
-send the karak worker to the quarry when it is builded(settler after that in karak?)
just to make it clear what will the copper city work first? worker or barracks. I am for the worker but i don't think that it matters much.

at the end of this turns we will see can we make peace with someone else.
By my plan the mids status will be hammers: 56; food: 31;

few requests for the player: Look closely the WW and tell us when it will became +2. Check the AI for peace every turn.

 

[g_storrow]

so we have consensus on the first 14turns (till Bashbalik gets 31 food):
- finnish the worker in karak
- peace with Alex
- settle W of the copper
- finish the rice
- start quarry as possible
- start the pyramids in Bash
- Bash will work gold+rice
-send the karak worker to the quarry when it is builded(settler after that in karak?)
just to make it clear what will the copper city work first? worker or barracks. I am for the worker but i don't think that it matters much.

at the end of this turns we will see can we make peace with someone else.
By my plan the mids status will be hammers: 56; food: 31;

I agree all of those I prefer worker first for #3. also.

Will have to play when I get home( on my tower) as my laptop gives me the error.
Error loading shader libraries. for our save and when trying to run programme normally.
I have tried to install new direct 9c but it is very quick and doesnt seem to update properly!

 

[da_Vinci]

so we have consensus on the first 14turns (till Bashbalik gets 31 food):
- finnish the worker in karak
- peace with Alex
- settle W of the copper
- finish the rice
- start quarry as possible
- start the pyramids in Bash
- Bash will work gold+rice
-send the karak worker to the quarry when it is builded(settler after that in karak?)
just to make it clear what will the copper city work first? worker or barracks. I am for the worker but i don't think that it matters much.

at the end of this turns we will see can we make peace with someone else.
By my plan the mids status will be hammers: 56; food: 31;

few requests for the player: Look closely the WW and tell us when it will became +2. Check the AI for peace every turn.

Just one item to clarify ... as g_s checks for peace every turn, do we make peace if available, or do we just keep a list of who is willing until we can discuss it at turn 14, or whichever turn is the food 31 turn.

The biggest key to this next turnset is ending it when the food in Besh is at 31 food, and the city is still pop 2.

@ g_s: any questions about the details (I think for the next 13 -14 turns, the dV/R1 mechanics pretty much match the hw plan), or are you good to go?

dV

 

[g_storrow]

I think I am straight. to beo honest I am making peace with alex but keeping an eye out for others. and noteing down when they wont peace.

Look closely the WW and tell us when it will became +2

do you mean tell us when it hits +2 is that in all cities or jsut capital ? does it alter how much pop each city has.

 

[da_Vinci]

I think I am straight. to beo honest I am making peace with alex but keeping an eye out for others. and noteing down when they wont peace.

do you mean tell us when it hits +2 is that in all cities or jsut capital ? does it alter how much pop each city has.

Most important is when it hits +2 in Besh, but keep a record of all cities.

It is population dependent. The same state of war will be 2WW in a pop 4 city, 4WW in a pop 8 city, 3WW in a pop 6 city, and if it rounds up, probably 3WW in a pop 5 city as well.

That is hw's point, that adding one pop might add both a crowding face, and a WW face to what is already in the city.

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

I will post my plan soon.
@dV the 3pop plan dont work because when the WW became 2 it will grow againg with the new pop up and it will go to +3 from WW and +3 from the population itself became +6 while we have +5 .

I haven't read most recent posts, but there is a minor flaw in HW logic: won't we have 6 if gold is connected to Besh? That way it still supports pop3.

 

[da_Vinci]

I haven't read most recent posts, but there is a minor flaw in HW logic: won't we have 6 if gold is connected to Besh? That way it still supports pop3.

We have 6 in Karak after gold becuase of 1 extra from palace. Besh is 4 base, +1 gold for 5 max now.

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

Hehe that's what happens when you post stuff like this while away from the game. My bad.

 

[g_storrow]

Just playing now. The food is beshabalik for the increase is 7/36 after 2 turns or so. we talked about 31 surely it will be 35 the turn before it increases to pop 3.

 

[g_storrow]

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1090 BC to 805 BC:

Turn 97, 1090 BC: You have made peace with Alexander!

Turn 99, 1030 BC: Turfan has been founded.

Turn 102, 970 BC: Asoka adopts Slavery!

Turn 104, 940 BC: You have discovered Iron Working!

Turn 112, 820 BC: Beshbalik will grow to size 3 on the next turn
Turn 112, 820 BC: Qin Shi Huang has completed The Oracle!
Turn 112, 820 BC: Turfan's cultural boundary is about to expand.

We moved onto +2 WW it changed at turn 103/660. now at 114.

Peace status Izzy and Cyrus changed in the last couple of turns to not accepting any kind of peace. The other still want the city apoart from Saladin who is still not bothered.
QSH was doing oracle.
Didnt send the worker down to as by the time it should get there it would have speeded by 1 turn the last road so built the copper mine.

 

[da_Vinci]

Just playing now. The food is beshabalik for the increase is 7/36 after 2 turns or so. we talked about 31 surely it will be 35 the turn before it increases to pop 3.

Yes, the food could be 35 before pop growth, the idea was that we only needed 31 so if we were going to stay at pop 2, we would work both the gold and the stone starting when we had 31 food, which is 6 or 8 extra hammers per turn for two turns, maybe saving us a turn on the pop 2 option.

I won't see the save until tonight, S214 is now up IIRC. He and I usually play some game together online Friday nights, so if we have a consensus on the next 15 turns, I can review the plan with him and he can play tonight.

hellwitch is right again in his predictions ... WW 2 at pop 2 means it will certainly be WW 3 at pop 3, a disaster for the mids. So seems to me we go with the pop 2 plan, unless ...

We could try to see if enough AI will make peace to get WW down to 1 in Besh (might even need to get WW to 1 then get peace from two more for this to work). That is the only scenario in which a pop 3 option has a chance to work. And if we miscalculate, we are screwed.

I suppose that if we could make enough peace to get WW to 0, the pop 3 option might work.

But, is the war with barbs slowing the progress of the other civs to mids? If that is the case, then maybe keep war, use pop 2 option is the way to go.

Or do we need to make as much peace as we can to keep WW low? With pop 2, WW could go to 3 and we are still OK, right?

We need to see how many barb cities have been founded ... maybe some civs won't make peace because they want to capture barb cities?

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1090 BC to 805 BC:

Turn 112, 820 BC: Beshbalik will grow to size 3 on the next turn
Turn 112, 820 BC: Qin Shi Huang has completed The Oracle!
Turn 112, 820 BC: Turfan's cultural boundary is about to expand.

We moved onto +2 WW it changed at turn 103/660. now at 114.

We are still at pop 2 in Besh, right???

dV

 

[g_storrow]

yes I was worried for a moment also but I didnt finish the turn I saved.
I uploaded so th turn is there I think we go with 3 pop and when we hit WW3 jsut work the 2 hammer tiles. and starve ourselves.