SGOTM 05 - Gypsy Kings

[Lehm]

That´s exactly what I am thinking. Troops troops troops!!! We have almost everything we need. And by conquering the rest of the world we´ll get the money to tech a bit more anyway.
I think the earliest finish date will win. I guess that will definitely be pre 600 -700 AD. We should start soon to be one of the first.

 

[Thrallia]

E the round before alfa was on 28turns now 10 turns later it is 41 at most. Why why we settle East bridge so early. Why we didn't vote at least for it. I would prefer to leave alex alone but not to cut our research at half.

Now we really must conquer the map with swords,axes and cats. We must do only troops from now on.

Sorry, but the 28 turns to Alpha when I began was not a sustainable research rate...we ran out of gold after 3 turns and lost 20% research...BEFORE I founded East Bridge. East Bridge is only costing us an extra 3-4 gpt, which is only 10% research. The reason for our low research rate is because of our happy cap, not because of the founding of another city. And we did vote for it...I preferred the clams city site for a scientist farm to up our research rate, but everyone else wanted an east bridge spot...I certainly didn't come up with that spot on my own...its a rather crappy position that does nothing except give us a bridge to reach Alex(and thus the Pyramids which could increase the size of our cities by 2-3 with Police State!!) and access to Iron, which we don't really need at this moment.

Sorry for the offence but Tra must to provoke some discusions before he play. If you all remember Tra played fast before too and we miss the mids because we go 10 turns later for them.
So please make discusions before playing teamates. We need to discus such thing like cuting off the research.

What is done is done i just want to prevent such a mess to happend again.

I have one crazzy idea - can we give East Bridge to some of the AI for peace. We can get it back whenever we want you know.
edit: i've checked it - nobody from the AI want a town for peace now

No AI will take peace under any circumstances right now, they don't want any of our cities, and they don't want to give us anything. Additionally, none of them have researched Alpha yet, as we didn't have the option to demand or surrender techs to anyone for peace.

I don't think I played fast...I waited 60 hours before playing, and I took 90 minutes to play my 10 turns. Since the only dissenting view for East Bridge was that Alex's culture might provide a bridge, and since it doesn't in vanilla, I saw no reason to postpone founding the city once I saw what it would cost to found it(3-4 gpt) especially since Alex is currently the weakest civ in the game, and we could take Mecca, peace Sal, and then quickly take the Pyramids from Alex, greatly strengthening our civilization.

And I want to know exactly what it is you think I did wrong that cost us the Pyramids? :???: If I recall, no one had any problems with my play last time around, and since we didn't even HAVE Masonry until I had 3 turns left in my first turnset, I don't see how anything I did had anything to do with our Pyramid chase. If anything, I was the one pushing us to research Masonry earlier and build it earlier and faster. I was the one that originally stated how important Pyramids were to our plan.

For the next turnset, here is what I see.

Turfan - Temple done in 5 and grow in 5, whip unhappy wears off in 6. We should be at pop 3 and build nothing but Cats.

Karak - I think we should build(whip) Monastary to spread religion.

Westbridge - Building Axes/Swords/Spears

Beshbalik - Keep building Cats/Swords

Eastbridge - Barracks before troops, but I would rather see Galley's here.

Turfan- Agreed

WestBridge- Agreed

Beshbalik- Agreed

Eastbridge- I started an archer so it would have some defense, but I think that once the Iron is mined, we work the mine only, and build galleys out of here. We can't sustain pop 2 here if we want any production, and working the ocean is pretty much pointless here as it can't support itself by working the ocean. So stay size 1, working the Iron, gives us 5-6 hammers/turn while building galleys.

Karak- I'm not sure what good a monastery will do in Karak other than giving +10% science. I'd prefer to run 2 scientists there for the time being and pasture the pigs, allowing us an extra hammer while running those 2 scientists.

Looks like we still have not ironed out how to resolve different ideas before a turnset.

Maybe this is a good point to pause a moment, and work that out? We are not falling behind in the play pace, so I think we can afford to wait a few days to sort things out.

I have not been into the latest save yet (RL is picking up), but it seems that the issue of concern was the timing of founding Eastbridge, and its effect on research rate (via maint costs, I assume).

This seems to raise the question of whether we are planning to go after Alex after Sal or not (assuming we have agreement on going after Sal?)

We may all need to include more mechanics and MM plans along with the more generic strategy discussion going forward. I wonder if some of the disagreement is on the details of how to get to an objective, rather than on what the objective should be.

I'm all for more group consensus before play, I think I made the right decision, and I think it is one that everyone except for hw wanted to do.

Perhaps the problem is the details on how to reach an objective, but unless the details themselves are big ones(war declarations, invasions, research, etc) I think that once the plans are decided the minor details should be up to the player. I think we can trust all our players to do their best at MM and at giving our team its best shot at winning.

So, in broad strategic terms, the choices I see are:

Go directly west. Skip Sal, skip Alex.

Hit Sal into peace, then go west. Skip Alex

Skip Sal, Hit Alex, then go east

Hit Sal, hit Alex, then go east

dV

I vote Hit Sal, Hit Alex, go east AND west(but east initially).

After we take Mecca, Sal will be willing to talk peace. Then we hit Alex, take the Pyramids, and revolt to Police State. -50% WW and +25% military production WILL win this game for us, that's why I pushed so hard for the Pyramids in the first place...its ability to improve an SE or to immensely improve our war machine.

+25% military production isn't a great boon(not better than Hereditary Rule's MP, at least), but -50% WW means #1 that our cities can grow 2 sizes larger giving us a much better economy AND faster military production, and #2 that we won't have as much of a slowdown in our empire as we begin to actually attack the rest of the world.

I am not really sure what Alphabet gains us right now. We may be able to get peace by giving up a tech I suppose. I would rather gain a tech by kicking the AI's into submission.

All of our city locations can be productive, that is why I was leaning towards science in Westbridge. But any city location that has at least 1 food bonus tile can support 2 scientists/merchants/etc...

I also still feel it is poor use of resources to not work the bonus tiles in favor of scientists. If you look at what we are exchanging, right now we are trading 2 grass hill mines(4*2) for horse pasture(7) and pig hill mine(5) but could be pastured pig hill for (6). We are on the wrong end of an 8 for 12 trade as we stand right now. If we finish the Library in Westbridge and put scientists there instead, we end up on the right side of the 8 for 12 deal.

If we did scientists in Westbridge instead of Karak, would Karak be able to run higher production than WestBridge can? If not, then despite losing out on tile production yields, I'd prefer scientists in Karak.

As for Alphabet, the AI doesn't have it yet, as none of them show the ability to give up or demand techs from us in trade; we could use it to possibly extort a tech or two out of Saladin once we take Mecca, and it is required for Literacy(Heroic Epic), Drama(culture slider for increasing our happy cap), and CS(Bureaucracy? and Maces)

I'm not saying we are necessarily going to research all of those, but I personally thinkg Drama and CS will be necessities.

 

[da_Vinci]

Looking at the save ...

I don't see us getting Alpha anytime soon, as we have to cut to 20% research now, 52 turns away. We will have peace with Sal well before we get Alpha at this rate, won't we?

If we are going to wait forever for Alpha anyway, why not turn scientists off for now in Karak, build temple, and when whip wears off, we can run pop 4, all bonus tiles + 1 scientist. When we force Sal into peace, can likely run pop 5. Pasture pigs and that runs all bonus and two scientists.

In Westbridge, don't we want to get to pop 3? Would have to run 2/3 third hill, 1/3 farms to sustain, but that puts us at a 9 hpt average there.

EastBridge ... I still think we ought to consider two cottages on the grass. If we don't come up with some cash we will soon reach a troop cap, as we are now at 20% sci and only +4 per turn! At 0% sci we are only +7 gold !!

And remember that when we go into enemy lands, we add supply costs. So we need some plans to pay our army, and we might have to stop producing foot to leave room for cats ... which means that West could make the missionaries for the other cities and grow to pop 3 as we fill our limited troop space with cats elsewhere?

Whipping our pop down will reduce maint by some amount? Will we need to do that to afford the invasion of Sal? SE or no SE, we have so little income right now that military operations are going to be limited, I fear. I think that the only solution is careful current management, and getting those pop caps up (peace with Sal, mids from Alex). I think it is the inability to run both bonus tiles and cottages in this game that is cramping the treasury.

dV

 

[da_Vinci]

That´s exactly what I am thinking. Troops troops troops!!! We have almost everything we need. And by conquering the rest of the world we´ll get the money to tech a bit more anyway.
I think the earliest finish date will win. I guess that will definitely be pre 600 -700 AD. We should start soon to be one of the first.

By definition the earliest finish date will win. Hopefully 600 AD is optimistic, as we are already at 500 AD! It may be that a team that chose to make early peace as soon as possible with the AI will do best as that will give them larger cities early. I know that I underestimated the negative impact of an active always war, which is what this game has become for us.

dV

 

[Scout214]

Had to hit Submit Reply twice. Eventually it doubled my message. I don't know how to remove a post so I just wiped this one out. It appears immediately below. Only needs to be here once!

 

[Scout214]

I think we still have an unresolved issue around how much more advanced military we research. hw seems to favor limited further research and spam troops. I think most of us original GK have more builder/research tendencies (not saying one is better, just pointing out the difference). We need to tackle that difference of opinion soon.

dV

Perhaps a better target for tech research are ones that give us military units that our enemies lack, such as Knights or something.

It seems to me that the designer of this scenario targeted the typical Civ 4 player who prefers to develop before attacking. I have played enough games of it with dV privately to recognize that sometimes a given setup necessitates deviation from that plan and attacking quickly, before the opponents build up more than we do. This appears to me to be the case with this one. The longer we wait to attack, the harder it will be to do so. Eventually, it may prove impossible because the other civs will be so far beyond us technologically and there will be no way to catch them.

Part of the trap for the developer type of player is to equip our island with lots of production capability. If we fail to get science going well because we designate every city for production, then we fall into the trap. On the other hand, having that production capacity gives us the key to winning the game. Victory may depend upon us using it to produce lots of troops in a big hurry.

I am open to whatever tactical plan everyone else favors to accomplish that strategy. My view, though, is that because Sal is close and we are still at war with them, they are a logical first target. (Militarily, it would be a mistake to head west directly while leaving a closer enemy on our border.) Alex can wait because it may be beneficial to have a foreign civ at peace with us. He may also be technologically behind the others as well. If they don't fight each other then he closes a back door while we head in the other direction, and hopefully will remain relatively weak enough for us to tackle later.

 

[Ronnie1]

If we did scientists in Westbridge instead of Karak, would Karak be able to run higher production than WestBridge can? If not, then despite losing out on tile production yields, I'd prefer scientists in Karak.

The big difference shows up in the long run. Over 80 turns of 1 "inning" for our team, we are giving up 320 "units", be them food/hammers/commerce.

At this point it might still make a big enough difference to switch to scientists in Westbridge and production in Karak. If we can get our happy cap up sooner, it may not make that big a difference.

 

[Thrallia]

I'd personally prefer scientists in both cities, but that's obviously not going to happen

I'm going to attempt to run my first XOTM specialist economy in the new WOTM let's see how that goes...I've been focusing on them in all my HOF entries lately.

 

[da_Vinci]

I'd personally prefer scientists in both cities, but that's obviously not going to happen

I'm going to attempt to run my first XOTM specialist economy in the new WOTM let's see how that goes...I've been focusing on them in all my HOF entries lately.

Uh ... and where are we going to make MONEY? I have never run a specialist economy (by which I mean a cottage-free economy), but the problem with all scientists, it seems to me, is that even with slider at 0 science, there is not enough commerce to make any money!

At least with cottages, less science = more cash.

It may be that if cash is limited, then hammers have limited value after we hit our troop cap. We will have some conquest cash eventually, but it seems to me that we are in a short term cash crunch ... and I have yet to see any suggestions about how to resolve it. Maybe Besh has to focus on commerce? Maybe cottages in Eastbridge make sense?

Is this discussion taking us farther away from a consensus? Seems like rather than narrowing options, the discussion is opening up more?

Skipping the war strategy items for now, we need an economic plan consensus that addresses:

How do we produce enough gold in the short run to pay the army?

What is the best balance between science, hammers, and gold? If we hit a troop cap due to no cash, don't we have to give up hammers for commerce? But not hammers for science (not give up hammers for scientists) ... hammers for commerce that we can make into gold.

If the army is limited in size, what mix of units do we want, and do we then need to make only cats now?

My thought is that the focus must be on whatever it takes to pay the army so they can attack Sal. If that means fewer hammers and less science for now, then so be it.

We may need to take an extra two or three days to sort this out.

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

In a SE situation, I assume that your gold comes from Merchants after Markets. In our case, A GProphet for the Shrine would be great. We could gain 2 commerce right now from the Horse pasture in Karak if we use that. Lighthouses would allow 2 commerce from our Coast tiles.

@ All,
Those familiar Gotm's and more specifically Sgotm's should have expected this to be more difficult than a standard Monarch level game. The staff always adds a few wrinkles for which the player's are generally un-prepared. I expect that all teams are having issues based on how they approached this game. I know that in my practice game, I beelined for Astronomy, made it first, but was ill prepared with ground troops when I got there. I suspect that those teams approaching this with an all out war strategy similar to ours, are having similar choices to make.

We just need to find the single best solution for our current place in the world. I think we are on the right track, and I may be beating a dead horse, but I still feel that Maximizing population usage could give us an edge.

 

[Thrallia]

the cash you get in an SE comes from riverside tiles, coastal tiles, any cottages you run, and from luxury resources...maybe we should research calendar with our barbarian allies...we've a ton of commerce waiting to be unlocked with plantations!

As for the more immediate commerce needs...if we get rid of the scientist in Karak(turn Westbridge into science, rather than Karak) and pasture the pig, we can work the cottages being built there along with the horse and the pig, giving us a food surplus, some hammers, and an immediate increase of +6 to our commerce...increasing as the cottages mature.

 

[da_Vinci]

In a SE situation, I assume that your gold comes from Merchants after Markets. In our case, A GProphet for the Shrine would be great. We could gain 2 commerce right now from the Horse pasture in Karak if we use that. Lighthouses would allow 2 commerce from our Coast tiles.

I think we are close to being able to run all bonus tiles and two scientists in Karak if we build a Temple there.

I see 16 gpt max at 0 sci for the war. If we plan to invade with a stack of 16, does that mean we are done making troops? If a stack of 12, we can make 2 more? Do we need to stop all troop production except cats?

If we are at a troop cap, we can work on infrastructure like temples, and even finish the Library in WestB. But a lighthouse in WestB is 33% faster to build ... is that a better idea there in the short run?

Does maint go up with pop? IIRC it does, so we need to watch that.

@ All,
Those familiar Gotm's and more specifically Sgotm's should have expected this to be more difficult than a standard Monarch level game. The staff always adds a few wrinkles for which the player's are generally un-prepared. I expect that all teams are having issues based on how they approached this game. I know that in my practice game, I beelined for Astronomy, made it first, but was ill prepared with ground troops when I got there. I suspect that those teams approaching this with an all out war strategy similar to ours, are having similar choices to make.

We just need to find the single best solution for our current place in the world. I think we are on the right track, and I may be beating a dead horse, but I still feel that Maximizing population usage could give us an edge.

I also usually seek to max commodity output, but in this case we need to ask if we should weight all commodities equally. Right now, I think gold is more valuable than the others, as we need enough to pay for invasion of Sal. Two gold may be worth 4 hammers right now. Or worth 4 beakers.

the cash you get in an SE comes from riverside tiles, coastal tiles, any cottages you run, and from luxury resources...maybe we should research calendar with our barbarian allies...we've a ton of commerce waiting to be unlocked with plantations!

Now that EastB is founded, we can go for calendar as henge will get the FC popped before it obsoletes. And we add some happiness with calendar goods.

As for the more immediate commerce needs...if we get rid of the scientist in Karak(turn Westbridge into science, rather than Karak) and pasture the pig, we can work the cottages being built there along with the horse and the pig, giving us a food surplus, some hammers, and an immediate increase of +6 to our commerce...increasing as the cottages mature.

I can agree with that, as we seem to have more hammers than we can pay for right now. Library or Lighthouse in WestB? We can put it back to hammers later when we can pay for the troops it builds.

Now the discussion is getting somewhere, I think.

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

@ gs, Are you out there?

 

[da_Vinci]

@ gs, Are you out there?

g_s IM'ed me that he is away on holiday ... looks like his access is limited for now and would like a flip of order. So Scout214 would be up now.

But I still don't think we are anywhere near a consensus.

A close look at max gold is 19 gpt now, 21 max gpt in 5 turns after Turfan grows to pop 3 working sea tiles. So I think we can comfortably support an invasion force of 16: 4 each of axe, sword, spear, cat. Well, maybe 14 (only two swords) as then we add 4 cats, 1 spear, 2 swords is 7 more unit cost, 14 net gpt, and 14 units to supply is 0 gpt ... razor thin!

we have 4 axe now, in 2 turns we have fourth spear. Switch to max hammers in Karak, cat in 7. At max hammers, cat in 4 in Besh. Then 8 to next cat there.

In 5 turns, Turfan supports pop 3, then 11 hpt, cat in 6 each (so 11 to cat there.

Westbridge ... spear in 2, then cat in 9 ... so in 12 turns we can have 1 spear and 1 cat out of WestB, I cat out of Karak, one cat out of Turfan after pop 3, and 1 cat out of Besh (and one more cat or first sword if we want).

Then all cities must go to max cash, until we take one of Sals and get gold.

What do folks think about occupying that two tile island with an axe and spear on each tile now, as a springboard to the attack on Mecca? Depends of if that adds suppport costs.

We could land 3 axe, 3 spear in the forest to west (if still there), then land some cats to bombard, then land last cats and swords to attack, once we are closer to the attack time. Have to be careful about the gold and support costs, however.

This means shutting off science for now, but I think have to do that until we whack Sal. It also means that all cities run max hammers for a while, then max gold. The debates about buildings in cities become moot. After peace with Sal, we can see what our pop cap is like, and then decide about infrastructure.

Sound like a plan?

if we like this, then s214 builds the troops, R1 gets to launch the attack.

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

The roster order is

Lehm - in the hole
Conquistador 63 - waiting
hellwitch - waiting
da_Vinci - waiting
Thrallia - just played
g_storrow - Skipped until we hear from you
Scout 214 - Up Now
Ronnie1 - on deck

I agree with the balanced force approach, with heavier use of cats. With enough cats, you hardly need other units, mostly for defense.

I would not put any troops in Sal's territory until we are ready to go. Then I would land as many as possible in the forest next to Mecca. Bombard from there and then cross the river before the assault.

 

[da_Vinci]

I agree with the balanced force approach, with heavier use of cats. With enough cats, you hardly need other units, mostly for defense.

I would not put any troops in Sal's territory until we are ready to go. Then I would land as many as possible in the forest next to Mecca. Bombard from there and then cross the river before the assault.

So do you suggest skipping swords and just making cats? We do have to be careful that we don't make more than we can pay.

I assume we have enough ships? We will need to make two trips to get the army over to Arabia, so a couple of cats plus defenders to start the bombard, then the rest arrives in time for the attack.

Do folks agree that we must max hammers for troops, then max gold until we hit Mecca? Might mean putting tile mazimization aside for 20 turns in favor of making what is most valuable in the shortest time: troops, then the gold to pay them.

And a brief science moratorium seems essential to a rapid strike ... do we agree on that? Need to know before Scout214 plays.

dV

 

[Scout214]

Seems that we need to drop science to zero for a short time to build up some ready cash, then depend on conquest to keep the coffers full (and help to increase science.) We need a strike force big enough to take out each city. I'm sure you guys know the nitty gritty details of managing that better than me, though.

I can wait for a better consensus to proceed. Then again, gs might be back by then!

 

[da_Vinci]

g_s says he is 3 - 4 days until he can be back up playing SGOTM

if we agree on this appraoch:

"we have 4 axe now, in 2 turns we have fourth spear. Switch to max hammers in Karak, cat in 7. At max hammers, cat in 4 in Besh. Then 8 to next cat there.

In 5 turns, Turfan supports pop 3, then 11 hpt, cat in 6 each (so 11 to cat there).

Westbridge ... spear in 2, then cat in 9 ... so in 12 turns we can have 1 spear and 1 cat out of WestB, I cat out of Karak, one cat out of Turfan after pop 3, and 1 cat out of Besh (and one more cat or first sword if we want).

Then all cities must go to max cash, until we take one of Sals and get gold."

Then S214 could play the 10-12 turns to build the troops, and R1 could play the attack on Mecca, then g_s would be back to play, and then we roll around to Lehm again.

I think that S214, R1 and I have fundamental agreement with this (maybe some minor issues arournd sword/cat balance?) ... does anyone have a good argument against this general near term approach?

I honestly think that any other approach is just wasting too much time ... we have to get the offensive off the ground now!

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

I agree in principal. I think skip swords this first attack, we should be fine with cats, axes and spears. Maybe back fill with 1-2 swords for razing Sals other cities.

 

[da_Vinci]

Keep at the current 3 galleys, or build a fourth? I think 1 less galley is one more land unit we can support, so I say 3 is fine.

dV