SGOTM 05 - Gypsy Kings

Ronnie1 · Aug 17, 2007

We are 88H (47 invested) from Library in westbridge, 11 turns + a whip of 1 pop. If we switch to barracks and troops now, we are 8 turns to build barracks so 1st unit out about same time as library would yield scientist.

We can't afford to sacrifice pop from bonus tiles at this point IMO.

Are we suggesting that we don't really need to empasize science at all? If we can conquer all with cats and swords, we can shut science down right after construction.

da_Vinci · Aug 17, 2007

Ronnie1 said:
We are 88H (47 invested) from Library in westbridge, 11 turns + a whip of 1 pop. If we switch to barracks and troops now, we are 8 turns to build barracks so 1st unit out about same time as library would yield scientist.

We can't afford to sacrifice pop from bonus tiles at this point IMO.

Are we suggesting that we don't really need to empasize science at all? If we can conquer all with cats and swords, we can shut science down right after construction.

I think we are saying that long term, it will be better to emphasize science somewhere else.

I think the key is we have to get to pop 4 by either adding happiness or solving WW sometime soon (like kicking Sal?). Once we are at pop 4, I don't see how we pass up 10 hpt in WBridge. So while short run science in WBridge makes sense, would the library go to waste there once we hit pop 4? Or would we really pass up the 10 hpt?

dV

Ronnie1 · Aug 17, 2007

I agree with the long term thinking. My issue is with the short term science solution, I don't see one.

If we can't get peace, we can't grow our pops. If we get peace with Sal, our intention is to declare on Alex again. Will that allow us to grow?

If we are going to take a wait and see approach to science/science cities, then I think we pretty much shut it down after Construction and just build Swords/Axes/Spears/Cats and try to roll everyone up with excessive numbers.

hellwitch · Aug 17, 2007

I've played mu turns:

I build a monastery in West Bridge(renamed) sarted a missionary for Karak.
Finished the axe in Turfan started a whip(whip axe on 1 turn left) Galley which is 2 turn from builded. (It is possible to whip again at turn 1 for another fast build - i prefer a galley).
Besh finished the granary started a galley.
Sal send us a settler = new worker and +2exp

Karak - all the turn i was with 2 scientist and that made Construction few turns closer. the GGP are growing good = 124 we will get our next GP in 17 turns

Turn 171, 65 AD: Alexander converts to Hinduism!

Turn 175, 125 AD: Mahavira has been born in Beijing!

Turn 176, 140 AD: Temujin's Axeman (5.50) vs Saladin's Archer (3.00)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Combat Odds: 98.3%
Turn 176, 140 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 176, 140 AD: Temujin's Axeman has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 176, 140 AD: You have trained a Axeman in Turfan. Work has now begun on a Axeman.
Turn 176, 140 AD: Qin Shi Huang has completed The Kong Miao!

Turn 178, 170 AD: You have constructed a Christian Monastery in West Bridge Sci. Work has now begun on a Library.

Turn 179, 185 AD: The enemy has been spotted near West Bridge Sci!
Turn 179, 185 AD: Qin Shi Huang adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 179, 185 AD: Imhotep has been born in a far away land!

Turn 180, 200 AD: The enemy has been spotted near West Bridge Sci!
Turn 180, 200 AD: The Parthenon has been built in a far away land!

Turn 181, 215 AD: The enemy has been spotted near West Bridge Sci!

The plan is to spred in Karak and to whip a temple there = +2

and maybe = 4pop
WBridge could go for barracks after the missionary and troops.
Besh or Turfan must build at least 3rd galley as Sal have some too and we must to sink them before invasion

Ronnie1 · Aug 17, 2007

The roster order is

Lehm - waiting
Conquistador 63 - waiting
hellwitch - just played
da_Vinci - UP NOW
Thrallia - on deck
g_storrow - in the hole
Scout 214 - waiting
Ronnie1 - waiting

da_Vinci · Aug 17, 2007

Ronnie1 said:
I agree with the long term thinking. My issue is with the short term science solution, I don't see one.

If we can't get peace, we can't grow our pops. If we get peace with Sal, our intention is to declare on Alex again. Will that allow us to grow?

If we are going to take a wait and see approach to science/science cities, then I think we pretty much shut it down after Construction and just build Swords/Axes/Spears/Cats and try to roll everyone up with excessive numbers.

I agree, short run science is problematic, or if one just runs scientists in Karak, means swallowing some lost output (which apparently is what hw did). It's kind of a pick your poison thing, and I guess most of us picked the one that hw swallowed.

Well, if we don't care about mids, then we can kick Sal into peace, then go west to the mainland, keeping peace with Alex until we have kicked a few more AI into peace (or eliminated them). That might get us to pop 4. Forges might help too, so we might revisit that idea.

After a couple more AI are not at war with us, then maybe we have a second army that goes after Alex and his mids? Then we pincers the mainland from both sides? I'm not sure if two separate armies is better or worse than one big one for speed ... what do others think?

dV

Ronnie1 · Aug 17, 2007

Are we still planning the east bridge and a run at the Mids?

As a side note, we can put 1 turn into the Library in westbridge every now and then, and not lose all those hammers if we think we will ever want to complete it.

If we intend to just slug it out, I think we build 100% military now and go for it!

da_Vinci · Aug 17, 2007

The decisions before us now are:

Attack Saladin as next priority? I think we agree yes, but want to be sure.

Kill him off or just til he makes peace? Not sure on that.

After Sal, go west or go east?

Might be that none of those decisions are critical to my turnset, as we still need to build, but we will need the answers soon.

dV

hellwitch · Aug 18, 2007

Sal's capitol is the only real seaport for him so if we capture it Sal will be blocked on his island.
About the WW. I think that the barb activity is slowing down this could give us less WW after some turns as the WW has -1 point per turn(one fight give between 1-3 points). So with +2

from religion and temple Kakrak could support 4pop even sooner. Keep looking for changes in Karaks WW frequantly as we could go for rapid grow(without the scientist). I think now we must hook the pigs also.

Next Tech is Alfa(peace posibilities)>Lit(GL,HE,NE)

da_Vinci · Aug 18, 2007

I am playing now ... seems like a simple building turn.

dV

Played to turn 190. Karak is Christian now. I have been building a settler there as we need one for iron/EastBridge. One scientist plus pighill and horse was only one turn slower than two scientists to const (which we finished), and much faster to setter. Temple there and we should be able to run pop 4.

Turfan built a galley and whipped a spear. Part way into a temple, which should allow Turfan to run pop 3 and 11 hpt. Second spear building there to have enough for Sals horse archers. Two of them and two archers are coming in a pair of galleys near WestBridge.

In a fit of bad thinking I put two units on an unroaded hill where they don't need to be ... sorry.

We sank one of Sals galleys ... tempted his unpromoted galley to attack our combat 1 galley in coastal water ... we had better odds and won ... it is healing in WestBridge.

Cash is low, watch food in some cities as I ate stores to push hammers.

Saw barb galleys ... were they there before?

New barb city in north part of west coast of mainland.

Izzy built Temple of Solomon with a GProph.

I think with religion and temples we can get all cities to pop 3, for 11 and 10 hpt in Turfan and WestBridge.

Spoiler :

Autolog:

Spoiler :

Thrallia · Aug 19, 2007

Sorry to disappear for a few days there...school just started, and I had to absorb a sudden increase in my time away from home from 30 hours a week to 45 hours a week.

I'll be able to play my turnset on Monday, which gives us all of tomorrow to figure out what to do next.

As far as science is concerned, as this is monarch, I highly doubt we can conquer the world with swords and cats(which would require us to finish before longbows, basically). I think then that we need to found that city 3b and get the clams up, so we can get at least 2 cities running scientists. After construction we need CS and Machinery, then I believe research can be turned off.

Additionally, I think that the Pyramids is very important to our plans. I think we should go east, to Alex...declaring war won't increase our WW, since we have no residuals from him, and once we kill him any WW from him won't exist anymore anyway. Additionally, Pyramids will give us Police State, which gives -50% WW and +25% military production. That will allow us bigger cities and faster production.

Perhaps we should research drama as well though, on the way to CS, or afterward, so that we can run the culture slider when we need to.

Lehm · Aug 19, 2007

But we shouldn´t delay our attack until we get maces. Or did I misunderstand? The only question (and still question) is who will be our first target. Saladin is easy to reach. He has a juicy capital which we could/should keep.

Alex is a bit more far away but he has the mids. And we still need the east bridge city. Furthermore as Alex is aggresiv he will have more units than Sal I guess or at least more promoted units.
My idea is to attack Sal first, make peace with him after we got his capital. That slows him down. Then we could go for Alex who we should be able to kill off within one war.

da_Vinci · Aug 19, 2007

Well, here is an outline ... found the isthmus city with current settler, for science down the road. Make another one in Karak for iron/Eastbridge. Or the iron city first, but that will be more maint sooner.

Meanwhile, we go take Sal's capital and make peace with him. By the time that is done, we are ready to go after Alex.

dV

Conquistador 63 · Aug 19, 2007

Just checked the last save, and I have a few comments on MM:
. West bridge has no barracks and is building troops;
. Karak is building a settler and is working specialists - we could also have grown it to 4 and whipped for 2 pop for faster completion of the settler;
. workers are building more farms in Karak , when we aren't working the ones already built. Maybe we should be clearing jungle or building cotttages instead;
. Turfan needs to build cats nonstop from now on;

On overall strategy I agree let's take/raze a couple of Sal's cities before going for Alex's mids.

Ronnie1 · Aug 19, 2007

As far as science is concerned, as this is monarch, I highly doubt we can conquer the world with swords and cats(which would require us to finish before longbows, basically). I think then that we need to found that city 3b and get the clams up, so we can get at least 2 cities running scientists. After construction we need CS and Machinery, then I believe research can be turned off.

@Thrallia, I fought for your scientists in Westbridge but was out voted.

I'm not sure we can support that many cities on our mainland. I think we need the east bridge city more than the 3b city. If we keep Mecca, which I think we should, our city maintenance is going to start climbing. I think we need to be very selective about the cities we do keep.

I agree with C63 that we should build barracks in Westbridge now that it is a troop center. I also agree about clearing jungle and pre-roading to Eastbridge site. Also agree about the Cats non stop in Turfan.

The roster order is

Lehm - waiting
Conquistador 63 - waiting
hellwitch - waiting
da_Vinci - just played
Thrallia - UP NOW
g_storrow - on deck
Scout 214 - in the hole
Ronnie1 - waiting

Thrallia · Aug 19, 2007

Lehm said:
But we shouldn´t delay our attack until we get maces. Or did I misunderstand? The only question (and still question) is who will be our first target. Saladin is easy to reach. He has a juicy capital which we could/should keep.

Alex is a bit more far away but he has the mids. And we still need the east bridge city. Furthermore as Alex is aggresiv he will have more units than Sal I guess or at least more promoted units.
My idea is to attack Sal first, make peace with him after we got his capital. That slows him down. Then we could go for Alex who we should be able to kill off within one war.

not at all, I don't think we should wait that long either...I just don't think we should stop aiming toward them for later...after all, the more cities we raze elsewhere, the more room the barbs will have to spawn their own maces once we have the techs required.

da_Vinci · Aug 19, 2007

Conquistador 63 said:
Just checked the last save, and I have a few comments on MM:
. West bridge has no barracks and is building troops;
. Karak is building a settler and is working specialists - we could also have grown it to 4 and whipped for 2 pop for faster completion of the settler;
. workers are building more farms in Karak , when we aren't working the ones already built. Maybe we should be clearing jungle or building cotttages instead;
. Turfan needs to build cats nonstop from now on;

On overall strategy I agree let's take/raze a couple of Sal's cities before going for Alex's mids.

Wow, did I have a mental meltdown at the end of that turn! :eek:

Don't know where my head was at, but my intention was to build a cottage in Karak ... must have clicked the wrong key without thinking.

I was trying to find a balance between working the scientists and working the bonus tiles in Karak so thought that staying at pop 3 might make more sense, but you may be right that a whip at pop 4 for settler would have been better. Imagine dV not using a whip opportunity! :eek:

Westbridge spear is a reaction to seeing the HA being shipped in, and wanting enough spears in enough places to repel them. Forgot we had not yet put barracks in WestBridge.

I must be getting too old!

dV

da_Vinci · Aug 19, 2007

Ronnie1 said:
I agree with C63 that we should build barracks in Westbridge now that it is a troop center. I also agree about clearing jungle and pre-roading to Eastbridge site. Also agree about the Cats non stop in Turfan.

Barracks in Westbridge for sure. Cats non-stop in Turfan before or after the temple to allow pop 3? The point of religion was to get enough happiness for 3 hills or mine + 2 hills in Turfan and WestBridge, wasn't it?

dV

Conquistador 63 · Aug 19, 2007

IIRC Turfan will be able to support pop3 w/o temple, provided it doesn't have unhappy pop from whip.

da_Vinci · Aug 19, 2007

Conquistador 63 said:
IIRC Turfan will be able to support pop3 w/o temple, provided it doesn't have unhappy pop from whip.

Oh my ... did I screw up one more thing?

Well, in this case maybe not as revealed in this post from earlier:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5818659&postcount=363

Lehm had noticed that going to pop 3 gave him 7 :mad:

, and the math around the floor function revealed that pop 2 to pop 3 added 2 WW :mad:

and one crowding :mad:

With a base

of 4, we need the gold, the religion, AND the temple to get 7

to run pop 3 if we are gettign 4WW from pop 3.

But right now, in Karak, we only have 3 WW for pop 3, so it must be dwindling. But it might jump back up to 4 WW at pop 3 if barbs get active or we go on the offensive. So we might want those temples eventually.

Hopefully the temple was a reasonable idea. What shoddy play in retrospect for most of the rest of the turn :rolleyes:

dV

SGOTM 05 - Gypsy Kings

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