SGOTM 05 - Gypsy Kings

[da_Vinci]

i agree that you shouldn't left Damascus as it is not so bad town and can make troubles.
One thing that i didn't mention yet is after monarchy - instant revolt to it or to wait for more covics to come online(maybe after CS). IMO immidiate switch is better but ....cant find arg why not.

PS. i will play tomorrow so i want opinions about what kind of troops we need to build(IMO at least one more axe is needed) maybe cats or some mixture.

I am not sure that there is an urgent need for HR civic right now, for two reasons: most cities have pop room IIRC, and to make use of HR we need to have troops in the cities, but we really want them on the offensive.

So i think it can wait. Maybe we do it later. Whip at pop caps for now.

After mids, representation will put happy in some cites, so maybe don't need HR at all?

Regarding troops, we have a nice set of swords, could use some more axe to defend them from axe. Already pretty good on spear IIRC. Mostly cats now I would think. I like to sacrifice one or two with barrage promotions, then use either CR cats or other troops (if odds are really good, or who needs a combat for a promo, etc.) to finish off a city.

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

I see no need for HR civic right now. After we get Mids, we will have all of the options available. I agree with more Cats.

 

[Thrallia]

I agree with razing damascus, then peacing Sal. In my opinion, it is much more efficient to peace him now, go for Alex, and later on, bring some new troops past Sal and take him out for some extra experience on the way to the real front lines.

The top conquest/domination players in the XOTMs usually go after an enemy until it is no longer a threat, peace it, go after someone else, and then finish the first enemy later on, as he produces replacement troops and they pass by on the way toward the front. IMO, it makes plenty of sense to do so here...Sal won't be a threat, we need the GL and Pyramids, Alex is still weak militarily, and it will take very few turns to finish off Sal later on.

As for research, I agree CoL should be next, not just to unlock CS, but also because Courthouses will be key to allowing us to keep important cities we take as we go to war.

And for troops, I agree that we need cats...I'd say we need an almost 50/50 cat/everything else ratio for a rapid deployment when we get to the main continent.

Lastly, I disagree that we need HR as well. Once we get the Mids, we can adopt either Representation(which will give +2 happy in 5 cities) or Police State(which will remove half of our WW once we redeclare war on people)

 

[da_Vinci]

@Thrallia: does this mean you found your disk?

dV

 

[Thrallia]

nope

I actually came up with all that just by reading the thread and looking at the screenshots posted by hw.

I think my brother may have borrowed it, in which case I should be able to get it back monday or tuesday(unless I'm wrong about him borrowing it) so I'm hoping to still be able to play my turnset without a swap or skip(since I'm still 2 away from going)

 

[Lehm]

It´s a horrible imagination to not find one´s CIV disk. How do you deal with that? What does one do without CIV? Is there a life without playing CIV? Can´t imagine that...

 

[hellwitch]

Now i am playing....
after 3 turns our economy is back online as the research(50% on -13 gpt Col is 18 turns away, 546 gold in the tresury).

 

[hellwitch]

I have played 10 turns.

here is the session log:

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1100 AD to 1166 AD:

Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Spearman (4.80) vs Saladin's Archer (3.30)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Combat Odds: 86.3%
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Spearman is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Spearman is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Spearman is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Spearman has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Swordsman (6.60) vs Saladin's Archer (4.32)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Combat Odds: 88.2%
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (Plot Defense: +4%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (City Attack: -55%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Swordsman is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Swordsman is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Swordsman has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Swordsman (6.60) vs Saladin's Archer (2.97)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Combat Odds: 99.2%
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (Plot Defense: +4%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (City Attack: -55%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Swordsman is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Swordsman has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Swordsman (6.60) vs Saladin's Spearman (3.17)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Combat Odds: 99.3%
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (Plot Defense: +4%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (City Attack: -55%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Spearman is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Spearman is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Spearman is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Spearman is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Swordsman has defeated Saladin's Spearman!
Turn 240, 1100 AD: You have captured Damascus!!!
Turn 240, 1100 AD: You have destroyed the city of Damascus!!!

Turn 242, 1112 AD: Temujin's Swordsman (6.60) vs Saladin's Archer (4.20)
Turn 242, 1112 AD: Combat Odds: 93.8%
Turn 242, 1112 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 242, 1112 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 242, 1112 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 242, 1112 AD: (City Attack: -55%)
Turn 242, 1112 AD: Temujin's Swordsman is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 242, 1112 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 242, 1112 AD: Temujin's Swordsman is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 242, 1112 AD: Temujin's Swordsman is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 242, 1112 AD: Temujin's Swordsman is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 242, 1112 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 242, 1112 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 242, 1112 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 242, 1112 AD: Temujin's Swordsman has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 242, 1112 AD: Qin Shi Huang has declared war on Alexander!
Turn 242, 1112 AD: Chuang-Tzu has been born in Persepolis!

Turn 243, 1118 AD: Temujin's Axeman (6.50) vs Saladin's Spearman (3.20)
Turn 243, 1118 AD: Combat Odds: 99.2%
Turn 243, 1118 AD: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 243, 1118 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 243, 1118 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 243, 1118 AD: Saladin's Spearman is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 243, 1118 AD: Saladin's Spearman is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 243, 1118 AD: Saladin's Spearman is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 243, 1118 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 243, 1118 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 243, 1118 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 243, 1118 AD: Saladin's Spearman is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 243, 1118 AD: Temujin's Axeman has defeated Saladin's Spearman!
Turn 243, 1118 AD: You have captured Baghdad!!!
Turn 243, 1118 AD: You have destroyed the city of Baghdad!!!
Turn 243, 1118 AD: You have made peace with Saladin!
Turn 243, 1118 AD: You have discovered Monarchy!
Turn 243, 1118 AD: You have discovered Alphabet!
Turn 243, 1118 AD: You have discovered Horseback Riding!
Turn 243, 1118 AD: Christianity has spread in Nagoya.

Turn 244, 1124 AD: Isabella adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 244, 1124 AD: Euclid has been born in a far away land!

Turn 248, 1148 AD: Tokugawa adopts Vassalage!
Turn 248, 1148 AD: Tokugawa adopts Serfdom!

Turn 249, 1154 AD: You have plundered 6? from the Farm!
Turn 249, 1154 AD: You have plundered 22? from the Village!
Turn 249, 1154 AD: You have trained Christian Missionary in West Bridge Ham. Work has now begun on a Galley.

Turn 250, 1160 AD: You have plundered 14? from the Hamlet!
Turn 250, 1160 AD: You have plundered 1? from the Cottage!

The Galley near EastBridge must go to Alex land(i've made a OB) and get circumnavigation bonus as there is a 3 tile fog to be complete.
2 of Galleys are on a way to alex border. One Galley must unload the worker and the axe and must transport the missionary to Mecca then it can go for Alex border too.
All land troops are heading to EastBridge.
In Karak i've hired a priest for few turns, hi must stay 2 more turns till a GP is born. If it is a propet we can get the srine in WBridge.
During my turn set i've pillaged Sals land for the gold so we have a good tresury now ~ 500 gold.
We are 3 turns from finding Col.
I've whip a library in Mecca. the current sword is for the last Sals town as we can get literature from him if we made war/peace with him again. Be carefull - Mecca has read faces on pop 4 so it must be handled.
The Settler in Karak is for 1N from horses city on the West island as this is very good spot.

 

[Ronnie1]

Nice going hw! Will examine save later today.

The roster order is

Lehm - waiting
Conquistador 63 - Up Now
hellwitch - just played
da_Vinci - waiting
Thrallia - on deck
g_storrow - in the hole
Scout 214 - waiting
Ronnie1 - waiting

 

[Conquistador 63]

Got it. I'll post my plans later.

 

[da_Vinci]

Nicely done hw!

Happy in Mecca will improve when the missionary arrives (if successful), and I expect sometime during this turnset, one more whip unhappy should wear off.

The cottages on the dyes are maturing nicely ... they will be as good as plantation soon so we leave those alone.

There is a third hill in Turfan that we can mine ... for 14 hpt in that city. I think the workers go there after the pasture is done.

Long term we might want to send the troops from WestIlse and WBridge over toward Aryan ... raze the little Indian cities, let Aryan spread out a bit. Troops made elsewhere go east. Troops made in Mecca work against Sal.

Are two separate armies in separate theatres of action better than one large army?

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

I looked at the save and I have a few questions:
1. Which tech next? I suggest Metalcasting. Or maybe CS? Alex already has MC, maybe we can get it along other techs for peace after getting his capitol. BTW, luckily Qin is already at war with Alex, we really need to rush and jump into this.
2. On next Gperson: if GP, is the shrine really worth it? We have few cities, are we planning on spamming missionaries to each new city? If not, maybe settling him in Karak, or LB Divine Right for later trade is better? A GS would LB Philo, I suppose, is that a good option (also for trade?)
3.Should we whip settler in Karak after GP is born? I think so, it can regrow fast enough.
4. Should I let East Bridge grow after lighthouse? That implies not working the iron. I'm not sure it is worth to work the coast tiles there, but since the LH has been built...
5. Cyrus has silk available to trade but we have nothing to offer besides the rice we already sold to him for 6 gold. Should we renegotiate this deal, getting silk instead for the added happy?

 

[da_Vinci]

I looked at the save and I have a few questions:
1. Which tech next? I suggest Metalcasting. Or maybe CS? Alex already has MC, maybe we can get it along other techs for peace after getting his capitol. BTW, luckily Qin is already at war with Alex, we really need to rush and jump into this.

Too bad Qin won't make peace. If we declare on Alex now, might the MMS make Qin willing to make peace? Then we could trade with him, and a bulbed tech might be nice to have (he does not have theo). Or would Qin and Alex make peace right away? Do we need to hold off on declaring war with Alex until troops are in place?

If we revolted to no religion, could we then make peace with Qin and trade? Then we declare on Alex and we can go back to Christianity. Maybe this works after some MMS? Just something to ponder.

2. On next Gperson: if GP, is the shrine really worth it? We have few cities, are we planning on spamming missionaries to each new city? If not, maybe settling him in Karak, or LB Divine Right for later trade is better? A GS would LB Philo, I suppose, is that a good option (also for trade?)

Shrine will be 6 gpt immediately, more later. Not much right now, but is a settled priest better? If settled priest generates GPpoints (I settle them so rarely, I forget), then they are for priest, perhaps the least useful GP now. So I am leaning toward shrine. Maybe settle the GS, if not bulb philo

3.Should we whip settler in Karak after GP is born? I think so, it can regrow fast enough.

Can you guess how I vote on this?

4. Should I let East Bridge grow after lighthouse? That implies not working the iron. I'm not sure it is worth to work the coast tiles there, but since the LH has been built...

We get double production on granaries, so we could build that in 8, then go for the growth ... we will have plenty of cities making troops after WestIsle is founded. Seems like the only way to get much out of EastBridge. Can switch to iron from time to time to build infrastructure such as library, whip to finish, then off iron to grow back. The cottages will mature over time ... so commerce infrasturcture makes sense I think.

5. Cyrus has silk available to trade but we have nothing to offer besides the rice we already sold to him for 6 gold. Should we renegotiate this deal, getting silk instead for the added happy?

The only city that need extra happy right now is Mecca, but miss will provide that (and a temple after that) ... maybe we need the GPT for troops and research more? We will have extra resources after we found WestIsle, so we could get the silk now and the GPT back later? Not sure which is best.

dV

 

[Ronnie1]

I vote for build shrine if GP, bulb Philosophy if GS.

I like CS after CoL, with an eye to MC from Alex after hurting him.

I vote renegotiate deal for silk.

I don't think we should whip more than 1 pop in Karak, and I think we need to pasture the pigs.

If we are going to run cottages in Westbridge, we should finish the Library.

With all those turns invested in the lighthouse (Eastbridge), I guess we should let it grow. I would rather produce galleys here working the iron and the 2 cottages.

Finally on setting up the assault on Athens. Since we have OB, we can get a good look before we declare. I think we need to do as we did before. Find a good defensive postion where we can withstand the counter attack. Hopefully there is a position that allows bombardment at the same time. We should land as many units as we can in wave 1 and have at least 1 medic.

We can NOT get the circumnav bonus according to Gyathaar early in the process of setting up this game.

By hw, The Settler in Karak is for 1N from horses city on the West island as this is very good spot.

I believe you mean 1S of the horse?

 

[hellwitch]

I believe you mean 1S of the horse?

Yes that is what i meant. Sorry for the mistake.

I vote for build shrine if GP, bulb Philosophy if GS too.

The deal with Cyrus must be for the gpt till we reach happy limit in more cities than Mecca. The deal can be cancel anytime but we don't need happines right now(we will get wine soon plus representation after taking the mids in long term).
IMO we need religion as all new troops need expirience.
I also like CS for next tech

 

[da_Vinci]

S of horse has better food (by 2 fpt after Lighthouse) and same 4 hills, so that makes sense.

Any use for Literature now? maybe not yet, it is getting free beakers and we don't have marble (but Japan does close to Greece). But after we get marble from Toku, might be useful for HE (WestIlse perhaps) and even NE in Karak with scientists. Might get it for free by then.

CS makes sense now ... but if the barbs won't research that as well, maybe consider co-researcing what they are doing if it is useful ... we get the use of it sooner.

dV

 

[hellwitch]

from what i have seen it this game the barbs research as us if the tech is somehow availiable in their path or go on their basic way if we go for someting too advanced. IMO the co-operation with them is not good because our path folow a strategy but theirs dont. As i already said CS is the natural choice for me. It is the missing part of the "mace" bline because we can get MC and Machinary from peace or trade.

 

[Conquistador 63]

Turnset played and uploaded. No combat, just troop movement. We got a GP for the shrine and are teching CS. I sent troops down to Sal's city ,we can redeclare, capture 2 workers next turn if you see fit, but WW can be a problem.

Lots of troops, few boats on East Bridge. Next player will have to address this issue. The exploring galley, on its way back, will reveal Athens defenses next turn. Don't go east as there are 2 chinese galleys there.

Spoiler :

New Log Entries
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Turn 240/660 (1100 AD) [08-Sep-2007 19:56:32]
Research begun: Code of Laws (3 Turns)
Turfan Hammers grows: 6
Turfan Hammers finishes: Catapult
West Bridge Ham grows: 4

IBT:
Attitude Change: Qin Shi Huang(China) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Qin Shi Huang(China) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Tokugawa(Japan) towards Cyrus(Persia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Tokugawa(Japan) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Friendly' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Qin Shi Huang(China), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'

Turn 252/660 (1172 AD) [10-Sep-2007 22:01:05]
Turfan Hammers begins: Catapult (6 turns)
Galley promoted: Combat I
Mo Tzu (Great Prophet) born in Karakorum

IBT:

Turn 253/660 (1178 AD) [10-Sep-2007 22:08:13]
User comment: Izzy want us to convert Judaism, we refuse
User comment: Clams for 6gpt to Izzy
Tech learned: Code of Laws

IBT:

Turn 254/660 (1184 AD) [10-Sep-2007 22:18:35]
Research begun: Civil Service (43 Turns)
User comment: Alex wants Theo I say no
Christianity has spread: Mecca
Mecca's borders expand

IBT:
Civics Change: Cyrus(Persia) from 'Barbarism' to 'Bureaucracy'
Civics Change: Cyrus(Persia) from 'Slavery' to 'Serfdom'

Turn 255/660 (1190 AD) [10-Sep-2007 22:27:42]
West Bridge Ham finishes: The Church of the Nativity
Mecca grows: 4

IBT:
Attitude Change: Qin Shi Huang(China) towards Asoka(India), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Civics Change: Asoka(India) from 'Barbarism' to 'Vassalage'
Civics Change: Isabella(Spain) from 'Barbarism' to 'Vassalage'

Turn 256/660 (1196 AD) [10-Sep-2007 22:33:45]

IBT:

Turn 257/660 (1202 AD) [10-Sep-2007 22:37:26]
Turfan Hammers finishes: Catapult
West Bridge Ham finishes: Galley
East Bridge finishes: Lighthouse
Mecca finishes: Swordsman

IBT:
Taoism founded in a distant land

Turn 258/660 (1208 AD) [10-Sep-2007 22:41:05]
Turfan Hammers begins: Catapult (6 turns)
East Bridge begins: Granary (45 turns)
Mecca begins: Courthouse (20 turns)
Swordsman promoted: City Raider I
Swordsman promoted: City Raider II
Beshbalik finishes: Galley
West Bridge Ham's borders expand

IBT:
Attitude Change: Qin Shi Huang(China) towards Asoka(India), from 'Furious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 259/660 (1214 AD) [10-Sep-2007 22:48:20]
Beshbalik begins: Galley (10 turns)
User comment: Qin has 2 galleys W of Athens

 

[Thrallia]

looks like it is a good thing I was able to get my disc back from my brother today

I'll take a look at the save after school tomorrow for more thoughts, but my first impression is to go ahead and grab those two workers from Saladin, but I'm not sure how long it would take for him to be willing to peace us again, so it may not be worthwhile.

Also, I agree that we should head to CS next, and try to get MC from Alex after we take Athens.

My last thought is that we definitely need to get Maces in order to conquer the world, as Cyrus, Asoka, and Isabella all have Feudalism now, from their civics changes(serfdom and vassalage)

 

[hellwitch]

I have a close look at the save. We will have 5 galles for the attack.
IMO it is very possible to face a crossbows in alex capital. The obvious solution is 1-2 keshiks to have is the stack as they are the best counter we can have. When we attack the city the crossbows wont be problem as we have lots of cats but they are dangerous on the counterattack.