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SGOTM 05 - Misfits
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
cnwjr
Warlord
Well, as neither Piko nor Maro have picked up the save, I will do so late today.
Maro, if you are gone for the next week, you probably won't get another turnset before we finish. We only have 11 day counting today to finish.
Maro, if you are gone for the next week, you probably won't get another turnset before we finish. We only have 11 day counting today to finish.
cnwjr
Warlord
Okay, played out the turnset to 2019. 31 turns remain.
I switched all wealth production to research. We researched Fascism, Satellites, Refrigeration, Computers, and Plastics.
I converted a number of areas to farms to pick up some population.
Upgraded galleons & troops. Built an armor and another is about to be finished.
A number of loaded transports are on station. Asoka has two coastal cities that only have a few defenders. I have put the transports outside of those cities. We shouldn't invade until only a few turns remain. We don't want to give Asoka time to counterattack our own cities he can reach and negate our own final strike.
The score has gone to:
Asoka 5620
Temujin 3604
Barbs 1607
The deficit is down to 409, approximately halved.
We have a definite, positive chance to win this thing. We might not even have to invade at the end.
Unless, of course, Asoka wins a UN election. We just had one for diplomatic victory, so the results should be in within a turn or three.
I switched all wealth production to research. We researched Fascism, Satellites, Refrigeration, Computers, and Plastics.
I converted a number of areas to farms to pick up some population.
Upgraded galleons & troops. Built an armor and another is about to be finished.
A number of loaded transports are on station. Asoka has two coastal cities that only have a few defenders. I have put the transports outside of those cities. We shouldn't invade until only a few turns remain. We don't want to give Asoka time to counterattack our own cities he can reach and negate our own final strike.
The score has gone to:
Asoka 5620
Temujin 3604
Barbs 1607
The deficit is down to 409, approximately halved.
We have a definite, positive chance to win this thing. We might not even have to invade at the end.
Unless, of course, Asoka wins a UN election. We just had one for diplomatic victory, so the results should be in within a turn or three.
cnwjr
Warlord
Assuming Asoka doesn't get a diplo win, we will need to hit his oil well at least once more, as well as watch closely late in the game to see if he converts any of his windmills to mines or if the rebuilding of his towns gives him enough production. At the moment, it will take longer than the game to finish the last spaceship part, and it cannot be cash rushed.
Also, in the last turn or two, assuming we are close or above Asoka's score and don't need it to get another tech, we need to convert to culture from research (only on the slider) to make everyone happy. I seem to recall that happy pop counts more... though I haven't checked for civ4.
I think the next up is Mastiff_of_Ar, unless Piko wakes from his recent slumber and wants a turn. Marowaker has already said he won't have time this week.
Also, in the last turn or two, assuming we are close or above Asoka's score and don't need it to get another tech, we need to convert to culture from research (only on the slider) to make everyone happy. I seem to recall that happy pop counts more... though I haven't checked for civ4.
I think the next up is Mastiff_of_Ar, unless Piko wakes from his recent slumber and wants a turn. Marowaker has already said he won't have time this week.
ok i've had a look, i have a basic idea of what to do, but not exactly what we are aiming at. Certainly we can build up units to take out a number of asoka's cities, but we arent? i see the transports, ready to land on the mainland... isnt hitting his island cities the best option? we would be able to get maybe 6 cities in a turn? Anything we land on Asoka's mainland can get squashed easily.
And we will lose saladland if we declare war, unless we choose to conquer it as part of our plan? we should really discuss exactly which cities and how we want to do it before we have any more turns. Which cities, what units, how long to get them in position, which turn to declare war on, and so on. Lets really discuss this, we have the time
Most of his cities contain 1 mech inf, 1 SAM infanty, 1 jet fighter and one stealth bomber. That is every non mainland cities contents (i assume from available observations). A few key cities on asoka's mainland are loaded with gunships and artillery, going near them is asking for trouble.
He has 8 cities off of his mainland, 4 on saladland, 2 on qinland and 2 on small islands. these could be capured by us, increasing our land (not much with revolts) and population scores. Whilst ofcourse removing from asoka as we all know. Taking these 8 cities in a well designed onslaught, will not give him any chance to defend with his mainland forces, it would be like taking candy from a baby no?
I can't count, plus bhopal = 9. Did i miss a 10th? oh also the 2 on qinland are on hills.
And we will lose saladland if we declare war, unless we choose to conquer it as part of our plan? we should really discuss exactly which cities and how we want to do it before we have any more turns. Which cities, what units, how long to get them in position, which turn to declare war on, and so on. Lets really discuss this, we have the time
Most of his cities contain 1 mech inf, 1 SAM infanty, 1 jet fighter and one stealth bomber. That is every non mainland cities contents (i assume from available observations). A few key cities on asoka's mainland are loaded with gunships and artillery, going near them is asking for trouble.
He has 8 cities off of his mainland, 4 on saladland, 2 on qinland and 2 on small islands. these could be capured by us, increasing our land (not much with revolts) and population scores. Whilst ofcourse removing from asoka as we all know. Taking these 8 cities in a well designed onslaught, will not give him any chance to defend with his mainland forces, it would be like taking candy from a baby no?
I can't count, plus bhopal = 9. Did i miss a 10th? oh also the 2 on qinland are on hills.
cnwjr
Warlord
The main goal right now is research. In my turnset we halved the difference in score between Asoka and ourselves. This should mean that we can win in the next three turnsets without going to war. The score is calculated on population, land, wonders and techs. We can't do much about land and wonders at this point in the game. We can do something about population, so make sure that you maximize population growth. We don't need to worry overly much about production now. We also need to research as fast as we can, so when given the option always pick the tech that will finish the quickest. The troops are mostly for a last ditch effort to reduce Asoka's population if we get close enough but not quite over his score. I hope we don't have to do it at all. We also have to keep Asoka from winning a space race, and he only has one component left at Jaipur. As long as we hit his production in that city, it will not be able to be finished in the remaining time. If he rebuilds the oil well, sabotage it! Same if he turns the windmills in those hills near him into mines. In about 10-20 turns, the towns will be rebuilt, and add 1 production each. Actually more as he has a factory. At this point there is not really much left to do except wait and see.
cnwjr
Warlord
A consideration to remember... the aircraft in the mainland can be anywhere in the world in a single turn to be used the following turn. I don't think the computer AI plays that way, but if we choose to go after the islands instead, it is something to keep in mind. We don't have to make that decision right now. Our transports can basically be anywhere in the world in about 10 turns at worst. I think it will be at least 25 turns before we need to actually do any attacks... if we do at all.
Also, a thought... if anyone demands something from us this late it the game... give it to them!!!! We don't want to provoke a war. As we have more techs than Asoka & Cyrus, they might demand something. Even a smaller city or two is acceptable to give. Responding to Asoka's demands needs more consideration depending on the situation... it might be a good idea to pause the game and post to get a response if that happens. I doubt it will come up, but it is best to be prepared.
Also, a thought... if anyone demands something from us this late it the game... give it to them!!!! We don't want to provoke a war. As we have more techs than Asoka & Cyrus, they might demand something. Even a smaller city or two is acceptable to give. Responding to Asoka's demands needs more consideration depending on the situation... it might be a good idea to pause the game and post to get a response if that happens. I doubt it will come up, but it is best to be prepared.
Spoiler :
Here is your Session Turn Log from 2019 AD to 2029 AD:
Turn 629, 2019 AD: Karakorum celebrates "We Love the President Day"!!!
Turn 629, 2019 AD: The borders of Sparta have expanded!
Turn 631, 2021 AD: You have discovered Fiber Optics!
Turn 632, 2022 AD: Louis Pasteur has been born in Old Sarai!
Turn 634, 2024 AD: You have discovered Mass Media!
Turn 637, 2027 AD: You have discovered Fission!
Turn 637, 2027 AD: Judaism has spread in Otrar.
Turn 637, 2027 AD: Deal Canceled: Open Borders to Cyrus for Open Borders
Turn 638, 2028 AD: Asoka has completed The Manhattan Project!
Turn 629, 2019 AD: Karakorum celebrates "We Love the President Day"!!!
Turn 629, 2019 AD: The borders of Sparta have expanded!
Turn 631, 2021 AD: You have discovered Fiber Optics!
Turn 632, 2022 AD: Louis Pasteur has been born in Old Sarai!
Turn 634, 2024 AD: You have discovered Mass Media!
Turn 637, 2027 AD: You have discovered Fission!
Turn 637, 2027 AD: Judaism has spread in Otrar.
Turn 637, 2027 AD: Deal Canceled: Open Borders to Cyrus for Open Borders
Turn 638, 2028 AD: Asoka has completed The Manhattan Project!
score is currently
3821 - us
1720 - barb
= 5541
5786 - india
= 245 points behind 21 turns to go.
despite turning towns to farms we still have +21 gold per turn at 70% down from +55?
oh yes, great scientist was used to tech ofcourse, helped towards fission, reducing it to 3 turns, that has been completed, and on the current turn asoka completed the manhattan project...
Asoka lost his attempt to win diplomatic victory, tokugawa abstained and we voted for ourselves. Was then a re-vote for UN leader, won by asoka, who immediately attempted to diplomatic victory again with the same result.
Techs are good as they boost the barbs score aswell as ours. I'm not sure about destroying many more towns? half have been destoyed already by the looks of it?
cnwjr
Warlord
Well, it looks like it is going to be very close.
A couple of suggestions. Renegotiate the deals with Cyrus & Asoka for more money. Don't try this with Toku as he typically operates in a deficit. Though we do have a gift to him that can be canceled. Sell techs to Cyrus & Toku. This gives us around 620 new funds which will let us operate at 80% for another 6-10 turns. As they get more funds, we can sell more techs. I'd suggest refrigeration to both. We can kill off some troops to cut expenses. We could withdraw our troops on station back to the closest lands of ours to cut the away costs. As long as we leave enough time to reach Asoka and invade if we need to do so, this works fine. These are small savings (20-50/turn) so it is barely worth doing. Check cities carefully for micromanagement. Those that are so large they can't grow any further in the 21 turns remaining can switch to production and/or scientists. Make sure that all specialists are scientists. Priests, engineers, artists, merchants do us no good. Priorities are growth, commerce/research, production in that order. As we have only 21 turns left, micromanagement is going to be critical.
Our closing pace is slowing a bit. We are hitting the more expensive techs. We are likely to only get 4-5 more before we end the game. We are going to be so close that an invasion on the last 2-3? turns may be necessary. We need time to land (1 turn), attack with artillery (1 turn). An additional turn 'might' be necessary if we choose to bombard first. We should raze the cities as we will certainly lose them to counterattack. I'm not sure what will work best. I'll try a test game to see.
A couple of suggestions. Renegotiate the deals with Cyrus & Asoka for more money. Don't try this with Toku as he typically operates in a deficit. Though we do have a gift to him that can be canceled. Sell techs to Cyrus & Toku. This gives us around 620 new funds which will let us operate at 80% for another 6-10 turns. As they get more funds, we can sell more techs. I'd suggest refrigeration to both. We can kill off some troops to cut expenses. We could withdraw our troops on station back to the closest lands of ours to cut the away costs. As long as we leave enough time to reach Asoka and invade if we need to do so, this works fine. These are small savings (20-50/turn) so it is barely worth doing. Check cities carefully for micromanagement. Those that are so large they can't grow any further in the 21 turns remaining can switch to production and/or scientists. Make sure that all specialists are scientists. Priests, engineers, artists, merchants do us no good. Priorities are growth, commerce/research, production in that order. As we have only 21 turns left, micromanagement is going to be critical.
Our closing pace is slowing a bit. We are hitting the more expensive techs. We are likely to only get 4-5 more before we end the game. We are going to be so close that an invasion on the last 2-3? turns may be necessary. We need time to land (1 turn), attack with artillery (1 turn). An additional turn 'might' be necessary if we choose to bombard first. We should raze the cities as we will certainly lose them to counterattack. I'm not sure what will work best. I'll try a test game to see.
if we capture cities not on his mainland, and all on a particular islands, he wont be able to land units to retake in 1 or 2 turns, and he doesnt have any carriers mid ocean that he can hop an airfoce over with. there is the off chance he may have a sly way to attempt to air strike 1 city? but you can't recapture with air units anyhow *wink*
cnwjr
Warlord
A valid consideration. It's a matter of size and counterattack.
I just conducted some tests. It will probably take 6-10 artillery to take out a single defending mech infantry without bombardment, or weaken it enough for infantry to kill it. It looks like we won't have time for bombardment. The remaining units should be able to take out the other defenders.
The decision on where to invade needs to be made in a few turns at most. If we are going to have to move around the world from where the troops currently are parked, we need to get them started. The best cities to attack are those we can reach in a single movement, which pretty much means only those that are coastal. We have enough troops to take out two cities... no more are likely. Bear in mind that Cyrus is in a Defensive Pact with Asoka, so his troops will attack in their own 2-3 turns. I figure two turns. One to land troops and one to take out the city. If we need two turns to take out the city, we lose.
Everywhere, Asoka has significant troops (compared to our poorer quality ones) that can do a lot of damage after we land. Remember to promote all troops before they are landed!!! DO NOT waste city defender promotions on the infantry as we won't be in cities. Strength is probably best and anti-gunpowder as both mech & SAM are gunpowder units.. One unit should probably have medic promotion to recover a tiny bit from the counterattacks from our initial landing.
Again, I certainly hope we don't have to attack as we will likely lose as much as we gain unless we hit the really big cities I originally targeted.
Mastiff? I believe you are up now. No hurry as we have two turnsets to play .
I just conducted some tests. It will probably take 6-10 artillery to take out a single defending mech infantry without bombardment, or weaken it enough for infantry to kill it. It looks like we won't have time for bombardment. The remaining units should be able to take out the other defenders.
The decision on where to invade needs to be made in a few turns at most. If we are going to have to move around the world from where the troops currently are parked, we need to get them started. The best cities to attack are those we can reach in a single movement, which pretty much means only those that are coastal. We have enough troops to take out two cities... no more are likely. Bear in mind that Cyrus is in a Defensive Pact with Asoka, so his troops will attack in their own 2-3 turns. I figure two turns. One to land troops and one to take out the city. If we need two turns to take out the city, we lose.
Everywhere, Asoka has significant troops (compared to our poorer quality ones) that can do a lot of damage after we land. Remember to promote all troops before they are landed!!! DO NOT waste city defender promotions on the infantry as we won't be in cities. Strength is probably best and anti-gunpowder as both mech & SAM are gunpowder units.. One unit should probably have medic promotion to recover a tiny bit from the counterattacks from our initial landing.
Again, I certainly hope we don't have to attack as we will likely lose as much as we gain unless we hit the really big cities I originally targeted.
Mastiff? I believe you are up now. No hurry as we have two turnsets to play .
Mastiff_of_Ar
In his Element
Can we attack from the sea? If we could bombard with the ships, whittle them down with artillery, then kill them and raze in one turn, we'd be way ahead. Do we have any marines, by chance?
I think if we land the troops while at war, they'll never have a chance. The gunships and mech will get to them and slaughter the stack before we can get to the next turn.
I think if we land the troops while at war, they'll never have a chance. The gunships and mech will get to them and slaughter the stack before we can get to the next turn.
cnwjr
Warlord
We have no marines, nor time really to build them. We cannot effectively attack from shipboard. It would take too many units, each with about 0.0% chance of winning. We would manage minor collateral damage, but nothing really to the primary defender. We cannot bombard from ships with artillery, and have no escorts to speak of. No time to build them nor money to do so. If we leave the troops aboard the ships, they will die just as quickly as landing them via the numbers of aircraft, subs, destroyers, battleships, etc. This is one reason that an attack is to be done only at the last minute and only if absolutely necessary for the score points. Otherwise, we will lose. As we had pretty much planned on losing a few days ago, all I can see from this is that we have a chance to win now. The best we can do is to go as we have been and see if we can get enough techs and population. The military option is a last resort. It might be best to carefully watch how our score is going turn by turn and perhaps move all troops to one spot instead of two to see if we can get a large city (Bombay?) for the most points. Bombay is also an older city and might have a wonder. I haven't checked.
Mastiff_of_Ar
In his Element
I was thinking more of a 1 turn attack. DoW, move into position, bombard, and attack all in one turn. We'd lose all the ships next turn, but knocking off the one city might put us over the edge. If we hit the mainland, the troops we land will surely die...
I'm up, so I'll take a look, but if we have no escorts or troops that can take out a city, it won't work. Maybe an island city, but no way on the continent.
I'm up, so I'll take a look, but if we have no escorts or troops that can take out a city, it won't work. Maybe an island city, but no way on the continent.
cnwjr
Warlord
Hopefully, we won't need to attack. If we do, we simply can't do so as seaborne assault. We have little chance of success if we do land, but it is a possibility. It really depends on whether the score is close enough to need the few points possibly gained from taking out a large city. If we are more than about 20 points from a win, it won't matter what we do.
At the moment, there is no reason to worry about it as, if it does happen, it will be the last turn or two of the final turnset.
At the moment, there is no reason to worry about it as, if it does happen, it will be the last turn or two of the final turnset.
Mastiff_of_Ar
In his Element
Okay, I think I have a good idea... for once.
Let's go after Medina and Rajshah. Not only do they lose land, but we'll gain it back. We might still have population in Medina, too. It'll be much easier to hit than Calcutta, (16 units vs. 17 in the area)
Second, we can hit another city on that island...
Also, if we kill Ergill, do we get lots of land?
Let's discuss a bit before I start. We can make a few bombers without dropping much research.... and we might get 3 more techs in all.
Let's go after Medina and Rajshah. Not only do they lose land, but we'll gain it back. We might still have population in Medina, too. It'll be much easier to hit than Calcutta, (16 units vs. 17 in the area)
Second, we can hit another city on that island...
Also, if we kill Ergill, do we get lots of land?
Let's discuss a bit before I start. We can make a few bombers without dropping much research.... and we might get 3 more techs in all.
cnwjr
Warlord
Right now, tech is more important than either population or land. It produces a better score. We should get a minimum of 4 techs before the end of the game if we do as I suggested earlier by trading away a tech for cash and pushing the research to 80%. We then have a tech (currently) at 2, 4, 6 & 6 turns. If we carefully micromanage the cities to add max scientists where possible, we might get a 5th. I figure 5 techs will win for us; 4 might. A city can go into negative food a tiny bit as long as it doesn't cost pop in the next 21 turns. Even if it does, new pop should cover it.
I won't get a chance to check out your suggestions until later today, but as I recall, we are not immediately next to Medina, meaning that we can't attack it immediately. Remember that there are several places we are in contact with both Cyrus and Asoka, and will have to fight or defend on all those fronts. We pretty much need the maximum possible benefit... but only if we don't get the score from research.
Also, I think our 'stone-age' bombers will not fare well against SAMs and modern fighters unless we have overwhelming numbers. I don't think we can afford the diversion from our research to do this, but I have to sit down and make the calculations on the numbers.
I won't get a chance to check out your suggestions until later today, but as I recall, we are not immediately next to Medina, meaning that we can't attack it immediately. Remember that there are several places we are in contact with both Cyrus and Asoka, and will have to fight or defend on all those fronts. We pretty much need the maximum possible benefit... but only if we don't get the score from research.
Also, I think our 'stone-age' bombers will not fare well against SAMs and modern fighters unless we have overwhelming numbers. I don't think we can afford the diversion from our research to do this, but I have to sit down and make the calculations on the numbers.
i don't mind the medina plan, we can capture and hold. And our culture will expand, and we gain population points asoka will lose. if we do this on the very last turn... with tanks that can move the distance? 2 movement point units? we could do it with no revenge possible no?
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