SGOTM 06 - Geezers

Harbourboy · Jan 26, 2008

Yes. We are 26/30 on our way to a Gt Gen. I must admit I always tend to add these to the city (academy / instructor) rather than make a warlord unit. It's a matter of weighing up the instant ex-points against a steady stream of ex-points. Since we are going to be warring a lot, I'd prefer a steady stream.

I always spend my first Great General on a Medic. A hyperpowered medic is essential to keep the stack of doom rolling.

AgedOne · Jan 27, 2008

erikthecelt said:
It's not the steady stream of EXP points that you should weigh against having a Med 3, which can only come from a Warlord. It's the time that you save by having a healthy stack faster after each attack. It speeds up the attack which means you need fewer hammers overall to win. If you attack five cities and save 2 turns healing after each attack, that's 10 turns! Don't forget, with Charismatic, our units promote faster so that 2 xp is not as significant getting to 12 as it is getting to 15.

I suggest that you try out the Med 3 in an offline game and see it what it does. I will live with a GG added to London as that means a second promotion for every unit but I would prefer the medic as it's always going to be in the front lines and will always be useful.

Harbourboy said:
I always spend my first Great General on a Medic. A hyperpowered medic is essential to keep the stack of doom rolling.

One of the reasons I signed-up to play with Geezers in these SGOTMs is a chance to pick up knowledge that seems to have passed me by.
This is evidently one of those 'pay-back moments'.
Not only have I never used a GG to create a Med3 in any of my SP games - I have never even thought about doing it!! Today's the day :thanx:

Update: I'll be ready to go in a few minutes. Just get my cup of tea.

AgedOne · Jan 27, 2008

Summary

We're building plenty of cats.
We took and razed Knossos.
Our army is closing in on Alex's next city in the south.

I'm a bit worried about a couple of things.
First - I got us a Medic I out of the GG, but not Medic III, unless I'm missing something and this just comes along after more promotions.
Second - I feel we're a bit lightly defended in our heartlands now- and Hanni's coming our way with Numids!

Detail
T190 (350)
Start moving forces towards Knossos (but must wait for another cat to arrive before we move in)

IBT
Barb sword approaches the horses by Kumbi
A Gt Eng is born somewhere in the world.

T191
Kumbi produced chariot. Starts barracks.
Chariot heads NE to explore.
Axe moves up from London ready to intercept barb sword.
I can see that Knossos now has a C1 phalanx, in addition to the 2 archers.

Another cat is heading south towards Iron City - but I think I now need more before hitting Knossos.
Worker from York heads to hill east of London to start chop&mine.

Tech to 0%.

IBT
Barb sword arrives on our horses.
Alex attack party sidles up towards the iron. 2 C2 Horse Archers!
Hanging Gardens are buit somewhere.

T192
Spear from Nottingham heads down to help at Iron City.
New axeman in Nottingham - sits on mined hill outside.
Nottingham starts a cat.
Spear in Iron City moves to forest-hill to prevent HA incursion.
Workers chopping the forest here.
Workers also chopping hill east of London.
Chariot exploring around Alex city in far north. Horses outside of the borders.
2 Chariots from Kumbi exploring east.

Tech to 100%.

IBT
Alex's HAs disappear from view.
Barb archer walks out of Parthian - heading west, so doesn't bother me.

T193
Chariot in far north spies on Cherokee (Alex) and it's not pretty. Multi-promoted Phalanx and Axeman, trireme and galley.
View attachment 168266
3rd cat has joined the stack ready to advance on Knossos.

T194
New cat in York. Heads south.
New spear in London. Stays put.
Exploring chariots still on the move. Northern one returning, having seen to N tip.
Force of 3cats 2 axes 1 spear stands outside Knossos. Another spear coming up behind.

Tech to 0%

IBT
Skirmisher from Timbuktu ran down road and killed one of our chariots.

T195
We hit Knossos. Cat1 killed archer. Cat2 withdrew. Cat3 killed phalanx. Axe killed last archer.
Knossos razed. We got 28gold.
Alex has 3 HAs & a cat just the other side - just too late to save his city.
I decided I had to leave our axeman to die, rather than put 2 more units with him that would probably all die.
Our remaining forces hide in the woods, ready to mince up any HAs that remain unprotected.
Timur (our Gt Gen) appears in London and heads to Iron City to teach his medic skills to somebody.

IBT
Fabulous military skills from Alex. He kills our axeman, but then goes on to attack our fortified spear in the woods.
Having lost, he leaves his remaining forces in the open beside our units.

T196
Oh! My military skills are obviously just as fabulous.
Tried hitting Alex's stack with a cat, but it lost instead of withdrawing and caused no collateral damage.
So I thought better of continuing this approach and backed off the remaining units where they were joined by Timur.

IBT
Barb archer killed himself attacking our archer outside Parthian.
Alex's forces are sitting and healing.

T197
New cat in Nottingham heads south.
Workers have completed chop by Iron City - finishing Granary - and now begin mining.
Workers by London also complete chop and start mining.
New cat London heads south.
Timur joins spearman amongst our attack force as a warlord.
Assigned experience points. Not really sure about this. Nobody got the option of medic III. Just a medic I. Have I done this wrong?
Cats got CR3.
Started cats in Nottingham, London. Barracks in Iron City.

IBT
Alex has an archer wandering around near Kumbi. That won't bother us much.

T198
Our attack force starts to head south.
New cat in York heads south to join the fun.
Workers have completed farm - now head to jungle hill east of London.
York switches from Cows to farm (but now they are stagnating) and London switches to cows.

T199
Attack force continues south.
Chariots exploring.
Axe from Nottingham heads to Iron City in case of trouble.

IBT
A bunch of Numidians (3 plus a chariot) have shown up in the jungles to the east of London.
Alex's archer is still around near Kumbi.

T200
I send a couple of spears from London over to head off the Numids in the jungle. They both have WoodsI.
View attachment 168267
Main force is in the forests just outside Alex's borders in the south.
More cats are streaming south to join them.

Official Save
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm6/Geezers_SG006_AD0500_01.CivWarlordsSave

Session Turn Log

Spoiler :

Autolog

Spoiler :

erikthecelt · Jan 27, 2008

I looked at the save, it looks like you joined the warlord to the whole stack so that the xp was spread out. When you want all of the xp to go to one unit, it has to be alone in the tile. Timur will eventually promote to medic 3 but he needs to earn a lot more xp. Sorry, I didn't explain more fully.

Looks like we need a lot more spears.

AgedOne · Jan 27, 2008

erikthecelt said:
I looked at the save, it looks like you joined the warlord to the whole stack so that the xp was spread out. When you want all of the xp to go to one unit, it has to be alone in the tile. Timur will eventually promote to medic 3 but he needs to earn a lot more xp. Sorry, I didn't explain more fully.

Looks like we need a lot more spears.

Apologies.
That's my inexperience showing. :blush:

The-Hawk · Jan 27, 2008

Urgh, our tactical situation at London is not good, those Numis are well promoted. I believe we will lose the spice plantation and will need to do some whipping or risk London itself. I was hoping Hanny would be attracted to iron city, looks like his main attacks will still be aimed at London. Unfortunately, there is not a 1-tile pinch point in the mountains, so we need to defend two tiles (yellow dots).

My thoughts on defending the current attack.

If the spears are going to defend the pass, then they need to split up... one spear to each yellow dot. Otherwise, he simply goes around them.
The spears currently show only 32.9% attacking the Numi. If we plant them on the jungle hills, they will get +95%. Not sure what that does for our overall odds, maybe makes us +60-70%? At best, Hanny loses 1 unit overrunning one spear. The other can't even counterattack the wounded Numi (since they will be in a stack).
I think we need to mass a small SOD at green dot, and let Hanny have the spices. He moves to a yellow dot, then moves and pillages next turn. At that point, his units can be counter attacked from green dot.
His Numis get a +50% on cats, but only attacking. This is why we want to hit him first.
There is a cat south of London, it can get back in time. The cats in London and Nottingham can be whipped next turn and get there too. If we bring the spears back, bring the axe NE of London, and bring the axe from copper, then we should have enough units to kill his stack.

My thoughts on longer term defense of London:

If we don't defend the yellow dots, then we will lose spices every time he comes to London. I think we need to defend both. I would be tempted to put a stack on one yellow dot and hit him when he moves to the second since Numis don't get terrain bonus. However, if he ever brings a mixed stack, this would be a problem. We are better served putting stacks on both and letting him attack us fortified on advantageous terrain.
I think we need a spear, archer, axe combo on each yellow dot. Lots of units, but I don't see a great alternative.
We should get our workers to road all of the jungle tiles so we can move and respond to breakthroughs.
An alternative (may be better) is to abandon the spices (don't rebuild the plantation). We simply defend London from green dot going forward.

By the way, a couple of other things I noticed:

Cherokee has a galley, I think we need to be wary of units being dropped by York. Maybe a spear should be added to the mix in York. Another option is a small reserve force on the cows. It can move to London or York in response to attacks.
Kumbi is not working the horses (maybe from the sword attack?). I will switch back.
I'd sure like to kill that wounded HA of Alex's. Not sure there are enough unit nearby. We will need to get a spear or two into Iron City before they are rested up. Pretty sure they are heading our way.

I think I'm next? I don't think there are major decisions to be made since CS will not finish. However, I'd like input on the defense of London (short and long term).

Harbourboy · Jan 27, 2008

Clearly, the defence of London is now paramount, but still a tad concerning that by 500AD, we still have no decisive advantage over any other AI.

Sam_Yeager · Jan 27, 2008

Whilst I was not against razing Knossos and sending some troops southwards I must admit I didn't expect so many to be sent to the south, especially something like half of our spears. Iron city's defence, or lack of it, is particularly dismaying. Let's hope Alex doesn't have a spare HA hanging around. :rolleyes:

I think a fair chunk of the force in the south needs to head back.

It seems to me that we need to hunker down and build up our military until we have sufficient to defend our cities and send out a decent attack force against the AI. Whether or not the AI will allow us to do this is another matter. To an extent this game is starting to look like the last game where we had insufficient troops to sustain an attack into enemy lands.

AgedOne · Jan 27, 2008

In retrospect, it looks like we were nowhere near powerful enough to head off on the offensive. I was playing this like it was 500BC and not 500AD.

I think this again shows that we are all at different experience levels at CIV, and I am probably the least of the team. Assuming I am going to continue as a Geezer, I would recommend that I elicit much closer level of detail when preparing for my turnsets in future.

I stuck pretty much to the plan I outlined beforehand, but I guess the plan missed out such factors as (a) how much of a defence force to leave behind and (b)How big an attack force to send off after Alex.

erikthecelt · Jan 27, 2008

Let's not panic and get carried away. The AI is not the most intelligent player in the game. We switch Notts and York to spears and whip the following turn. London can finish the cat and produce a spear that can be whipped if Hanni's stack actually comes for London. It would not surprise me if they turn north or wander around a little. I would try the spear wall in the mountains first. The Numids will split up once they get to the spices and we will have to chase them around.

At most, I would bring 1 medic spear back to iron city and let the cats/axe going south continue and link up for an assault. Alex has that stupid barb city in the north and with HA wandering about as well, his cities can't be well defended. Lets put Alex on the defensive, his HA will not know whether to return home or continue to iron city.

Notts can work the cow island now to help regain the pop or grow slowly and work the hills.

Harbourboy · Jan 27, 2008

Erikthecelt does have a point. This is not Beyond the Sword, so the AI does not have a semi-intelligent military advisor. But this IS Always War, so there will always be huge armies. And the armies only get huger. If we have not made some telling blows by 1000 AD, we will be overwhelmed by endless tsunamis of macemen and knights, as precursor to the asteroid impact of a stack of 30 musketmen that will arrive after that.

markh · Jan 28, 2008

Well, we are facing the results of our approach now. We had an extraordinary approach for an AW game. We decided to focus on economy and this means less military resulting in the AIs building up, too. I have never played an AW game like this, so this game is quite a learning experience for me for this type of game. I do not think that anything is lost. Just a few Nums coming for a visit is nothing to worry about. BTW did I mention that I am more concerned about Hanni than Alex ? :rolleyes:

Build spears and whip them if necessary. Nums are excellent pillagers, but they lack in taking cities, so I do not think that our cities are in danger. They should not be able to do anything against our protective archers fortified in cities and we should be able to pick them up with spears. Pillaging in AW games is hard to avoid, so this is something we had to expect.

I can just repeat what I have been saying. We have to keep razing cities and quick. As long as there is room to settle the AIs do not switch to full military according to my experience. They can still be handled. We have to keep the AIs busy outside of our borders, otherwise we will go down. There will always be occasional units slipping through, but this can be handled. We have an excellent strategic position, so we should make use of it. I have mentioned before that we should fortify units in the mountains at London, btw.

So, don't get pessimistic ! Nothing is lost, but we have to get going quickly. Don't be afraid to whip if necessary. We have a high happy cap and can regrow cities fast.

Roster:

Mark
Harbourboy
Sam
AgedOne - just played
The-Hawk - UP !
Erik - on deck

markh · Jan 28, 2008

Just checked the stats on Nums again. The most important things for us that they are reduced in strength and have -10% on city attack, so the current three Nums will not harm our cities as long as we have 2 defensive units in our cities. Now we have to make sure they do not pillage too much.

Sam_Yeager · Jan 28, 2008

erikthecelt said:
At most, I would bring 1 medic spear back to iron city and let the cats/axe going south continue and link up for an assault.

Surely the medic spear should stay with assault force to help heal the inevitable wounded units whilst one of the other spears is sent to Iron city?

erikthecelt · Jan 28, 2008

Sam_Yeager said:
Surely the medic spear should stay with assault force to help heal the inevitable wounded units whilst one of the other spears is sent to Iron city?

I believe there are 2 medic spears in the stack.

The-Hawk · Jan 28, 2008

OK, I will play tomorrow night. Pretty simple turn-set plan:

- Defend London (duh!

)
- I agree with Mark that we should look for opportunities to press on the attack. Since our stack is near Alex, I'll pop down and see what is defending his city. If it can be taken, I will raze it. If it looks ugly, I'll hightail back for more units.
- Build military everywhere.
- No research decisions scheduled this turn.

markh · Jan 29, 2008

I had a look at the save yesterday. Good work AgedOne. :goodjob:

Did anybody switch to vassalage ? I do not read the ingame logs, so I maybe I missed it. If not chances are big that the AI is still defending with archers. All the more a point to be aggressive. The stack we have at the Greek borders definitely should look for the opportunity to raze the city there.

Have fun with the Nums, Hawk !

AgedOne · Jan 29, 2008

markh said:
I had a look at the save yesterday. Good work AgedOne.

Did anybody switch to vassalage ? I do not read the ingame logs, so I maybe I missed it. If not chances are big that the AI is still defending with archers. All the more a point to be aggressive. The stack we have at the Greek borders definitely should look for the opportunity to raze the city there.

Have fun with the Nums, Hawk !

As I recall, Hanni just switched to vassalage, on the last turn of the set.

The-Hawk · Jan 29, 2008

Summary

Did 11 turns because a battle was imminent.
Played lots defense, killed lots of AI units . Body count:

[*]Killed: 6 HAs, 3 Numis, 2 Chariots, 3 cats.
[*]Lost: 4 cats, 1 spear, 1 axe (also lost two scouting chariots)
Built a force to go after alex, but the AIs have longbows now.

Turn 0

Whip cats
Kumbi citizen works horses
Move two axemen towards london

IBT

Alex HA pops out of fog and kills a chariot
Largest civs:

1) unknown
2) unknown
3) Mansa the wussy
4) Geezers the Great!
5) Alex the snot-nosed brat.
6) Hanny the fanny
7) unknown

Turn 1 (515 AD)

York, Nott, London all cat -> spear
Collecting units on jungle hill
Move one spear to peak at alex, find Thebes defended by a sword and phalanx. One spear heading back to iron city, other units move up to begin bombard.
Decide to let the axe and two chariots by iron city loiter until we get some defense in place.

IBT

Alex HA coming at London from near Kumbi will lose dyes
Alex HA appears near stack by Thebes
Numis still coming towards London

Turn 2 (530)

Kill HA by Thebes with spear
Scout Timbukto 4 skirms and Walata 2 skirms

IBT

Hanny axe kills spear by Thebes, axe is joined by 2 chariots and a numi
Numis pass spice to go for London. I guess our capital guarded by a lonely archer is too tasty to ignore .
Alex HA plunders dye near London
Axeman joins defense of Thebes
Yet another Hanny chariot and cat are heading for london

Turn 3 (545)

London spear -> spear
Nott spear -> cat
Decide Thebes needs to wait, consider trying to kill Hanny stack, but decide not to risk the warlord (Alex would clean up the wounded survivors). Thebes stack heading back for iron city. Could have razed Thebes if Hanni hadn't shown up.
Spear kills alex HA on dyes
Cat kills Numi
Cat dies attacking Numi
Cat dies attacking Numi
Cat kills Numi
Spear kills chariot
Spear kills numi

IBT

Hanny chariot and cat coming on

Turn 4 (560)

Kumi barracks -> spear
send axe and spear out to mountain.

IBT

Alex 2 HA and cat near iron city still healing.
Alex sends another 2HA and cat stack towards London
Hanny stack chasing our stack retreating from Thebes.

Turn 5 (575)

Axe kills Hanny cat (near London)
Spear kills Hanny chariot
Scout Gao two longbows defending
Thebes stack near iron city with hanny in hot pursuit,. Send a spear out to join the stack in case hanny tries to run them down.
Whip spear in London. Whip cat in nott

IBT

Alex northern stack seems to be bypassing London, heading for Kumbi or dyes pass
Alex southern stack healed and moving towards iron city.

Turn 6 (590)

London spear -> cat
Nott cat -> cat
Attack southern Alex stack
Cat dies attacking HA
Cat withdraws attacking HA
Axe kills cat
Spear kills HA
Axe kills HA

IBT

Alex Northern stack (now only stack ) moves in towards London.
Hanny stack south of iron city breaks off attack and disappears.
Alex has rebuilt a city SE of iron city.

Turn 7 (605)

Not enough units to defend the mountains, decide to abandon spice again. They should pillage this time since they have a cat in stack.

IBT

Alex stack turns south again
Confus spreads to Kumbi

Turn 8 (620)

Send one spear to join loan archer at choke point SE of London in case Alex is heading here.
Decide to send a couple of other units south so we can get back after alex

IBT

Scouting chariot killed
Alex stack turns back north towards london. Wishing he would make up his mind so I can kill him.

Turn 9 (635)

London cat -> axe (want one for the choke point)

Turn 10 (650)

Nott cat -> cat

IBT

Kumbi spear -> cat
Alex avoids spice goes to hill

Turn 11 (665)

Cat dies attacking HA
Cat withdraws from HA
Axe dies attacking cat
Spear kills HA
Spear kills HA
Spear kills cat

Next set

Hanny has a stack floating around (1 numi, 2 chariot, 1 axe), last seen near iron city.
Ive left a decent defense force in iron city (archer, cat, axe, spear, warrior). Decide we need to leave a cat in case hannys stack shows up.
Our offensive stack is ready to go check out the new alex city: 2 axe, 5 cats, 2 spears, warlord spear.
London has a decent defense force. Id recommend we leave the mountain pass open and let them come through towards london where we can attack them in force from a hill outside London. In two attacks through the mountains, the AI bypassed the spice to go for weak London.
At this point, our scouting chariots seem too vulnerable. Wouldn't waste more hammers on them.
I would build all cats now. Cats can handle LB's, just need to bring a few extras. Only build spears and axes to replace lost defenders near London.
Tactical situation is not bad. If they keep attacking London, then we have a small front to defend. Let them come through the pass, kill them near the spices. Meanwhile, we attack alex to the south.

Sam_Yeager · Jan 30, 2008

@The-Hawk - Sounds as though you had an enjoyable turnset.

Pity about Thebes.

Nice to hear that religion has spread to Kumbi.

SGOTM 06 - Geezers

Deity

Emperor

Emperor

Old, Geezer, Unoriginal

Emperor

Old Original Geezer

Deity

Another Original Geezer

Emperor

Old, Geezer, Unoriginal

Deity

Deity

Deity

Another Original Geezer

Old, Geezer, Unoriginal

Old Original Geezer

Deity

Emperor

Old Original Geezer

Another Original Geezer

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