SGOTM 06 - Geezers

[erikthecelt]

I agree with keeping after Alex. There are three ways to do that. The stack can go NE, SE or SW.

SW takes us to Athens and will kill Alex's most productive city, but it leaves the stack far away from home and we have a difficult choice to make on keeping it or not. If we keep, we'll need most of the stack and 20 turns to subdue the revolt as it's currently size 16.

SE takes us to his next largest city (probably) but we won't want to keep it and it leaves us closer to Hannibal. A second stack of reinforcements could raise the elelphant city and link with this stack to go after Hannibal. Alex is going to thinking about resettlement and not about attacking us.

NE brings the stack back to the elephant city, with a stack capable of taking and holding elephant city. It's probably size 5 or smaller so it will have no infrastructure but it will allow us to build elephants to counter the crossbows that are coming soon. We are closer to our territory so reinforcements can link up at will. It will not deliver a knockout blow to Alex.

I think all choices have real benefits and each has an associated problem for us to solve.

Alex is still producing a lot more hammers than Hannibal so I think we send the current stack with the cat that is closest to Athens. The sword and cat on the way should return to iron city. When we have a stack of six cats, sword, spear and axe we can attack the elephant city. I expect it has the units that weren't in Thebes, so probably 4 or 5 defenders including at least one elephant.

For the record, I think any of the three options will work for us.

Tech wise, machinery is a no brainer, followed by HBR and guilds.

London is working the lake instead of the mined hill, is this to speed up MC? We are at the health cap for London - do we want to whip a forge when MC is done and build an aqueduct later?

We should clear the forest in front of Iron City so it can't be used for defense by the AI.

HB - please detail worker plans as well as your build and military plans, thanks.

 

[Harbourboy]

Sorry, how do we know where Athens is? I can't see it at all in this save.

On a strategic note, if we are not really planning on taking and holding a city right now, then the decision should surely be to take out the capital. Unless this is unlike normal games and this capital is not in a capitally-like prime spot. But the aim here should be to cripple Alex permanently. So I am in favour of carrying on south west and finishing the job. No point backtracking now.

We have 3 workers, plus one on the way. Does one of them want to improve one more tile for Nottingham (still 25 turns away from needing it though)? York and Kumbi both also need improvements, and I agree that we need to take out the forest next to Iron City.

I am terrible at micro-planning. My brain just doesn't work that way. I'd much rather just play a couple of turns once the overall plan is agreed, and then check back for ideas if anything interesting happens.

 

[markh]

London is working the lake instead of the mined hill, is this to speed up MC? We are at the health cap for London - do we want to whip a forge when MC is done and build an aqueduct later?

Yes, it is to speed up MC. We are in a race against the AI for maces. We will face them soon, so we have to keep the pace. Otherwise we will be in the same position as in the last games where we faced superior units due to our slow teching. We still produce 3 or 4 turn units in London. That is enough for the time being as we have a good number of units and any new unit does cost us more gold. The other cities build units quite fast, so I think it is ok to have our best science city do what it can to keep our science at a better level.

I already thought of building an aqueduct in London. 8 turns IIRC and whip a forge afterwards.

I would not turn around our stack NE. Afterwards it would have to go down again. I am not sure whether the stack is big enough for Athens, though. I would feel better with another sword and 2 - 3 more cats, but maybe I am just a bit too cautious.

HB : guessing on the cultural borders Athens should be SW. I marked the possible positions in the screenshot I attached to my report.

 

[erikthecelt]

Hannibal has just got CS and already had both MC and HBR so he is now working on machinery. We can expect Hanni to have maces within 5-10 turns and knights very shortly after.

I think we should reconoiter in force with the stack. If Athens is too well defended we can turn north and take out a smaller city and some of Hannibal. In this game we have an advantage over the AI in terms of hammers that we did not have in the Brennus game and I don't think you had in the previous GOTM. As well we played the economic game so we are not that far behind the AI. Alex has been sending a few units our way and he can't be building as many as we have (does not have the hammers).

@HB - pause when ever you like.

 

[Harbourboy]

We have not heard from The-Hawk since Markh played that last set. I'd be keen to hear his views before we proceed, unless people think we need to be moving a bit more quickly.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

We have not heard from The-Hawk since Markh played that last set. I'd be keen to hear his views before we proceed, unless people think we need to be moving a bit more quickly.

It's been nearly two days since the last turnset. I suggest you post a draft plan and allow another 24 hours for comments. By the time you actually play we'll be up to 3 - 3.5 days which seems a reasonable rate given that we have another two months before we have to finish.

@HB - I seem to recall that one of The-Hawk's recent posts was more of a strategic post. It might be worth seeing if it is still relevant.

 

[markh]

We are not in a hurry, so take your time, HB.

 

[The-Hawk]

Sorry gents, I've been going through a busy stretch at work. Getting home late, too tired to think. I've been reading along, but haven't looked at the save.

Sounds like consensus is continuing to maul Alex. I'm all for it, I think it is a mistake to let an AI recover when he is on the ropes. Let's whack him good. As long as Hanny doesn't get ahead in techs, I'm not too worried. If we have maces to face his, we will be fine due to poor AI tactics.

Typically, I would be keeping cities once I have CoL. However, the AW setting may require a different approach. It will be hard to defend lots of cities when all the neighbors are pillaging. So, I'd lean towards razing most of Alex's cities, unless we find a wonder. Once we start working into Hanny from his south, we can keep cities (Hanny's remaining cities are between us and Mansa). Once we are through Hanny and attacking Mansa, we can resettle in Alex's lands. I wouldn't pillage too much, certainly not his cottages. Pillage phants and metals, leave the rest for our future cities.

 

[Harbourboy]

OK, my overall plan is:

Nottingham: build swordsman (in 1 turns time)
London: build axeman (in 3 turns time)
York: build catapult (in 3 turns time)
Kumbi: not sure (in 4 turns time)
Iron: not sure (in 4 turns time)

one worker to chop Iron city forest.
Other two are still busy but thought one could chop the Nottingham jungle

I aim to have the southern stack rest up for one turn for healing then head south west, joining up with the incoming swordsman. Plan is to see if the SW city is takable. No plans to pillage, mainly because we have no fast units, but may take out military resources and mines if the stack ever needs to stop.

I will be playing within 24 hours.

 

[erikthecelt]

London - settle the General and build a chariot with Flanking 1 and Sentry as the next unit. The chariot should join the next attack stack or replacement stack. Do not let it travel alone. It will be the eyes for planning approaches and tactics. It can also pillage without slowing the movement of the stack.

I think the main stack needs two turns to fully heal and there is a good chance the Mansa cat will suicide IBT and you will need more time. If it doesn't you should kill it.

Are you going to build another attack stack in Iron City to go after the elephant city or are you going to send reinforcement/replacement stacks to join with the main stack before attacking anything?

Attack stacks should include 7-8 units 4-5 cats a spear, an axe and a sword. Plan your other builds to complete the stack. Replacement stacks should probably be axe or sword, spear and 3 cats for safe travel.

What are you going to do with the workers? Kumbi has two squares to be improved but only the rice needs a road for +1 health, so the rice should be first priority to grow London and allow the forge to be built. Cottages that can be worked on the river and the Kumbi spice would be the first priority if you want do as Mark suggests and MM to speed research.

 

[Harbourboy]

Are you going to build another attack stack in Iron City to go after the elephant city or are you going to send reinforcement/replacement stacks to join with the main stack before attacking anything?

I would build another stack, but I doubt things will get that far in 10 turns as we will really only have another few units in that time.

 

[Harbourboy]

IBT: Malinese catapult kills our Axeman!
Mansa Musa adopts Bureaucracy
Chichen Itza has been built in a far away land.

231 - 965 AD: Nottingham: Archer => Sword (4). Axeman kills Malinese Catapult. Worker starts jungle near Nottingham. Worker moves to jungle rice. Catapult and sword continue to join healing stack.

IBT: The Colossus has been built in a far away land.

232 - 980 AD: Southern stack now 99% healed so moves one SW to intercept arriving sword and catapult. Worker starts on jungle rice (which I now realise was not the rice you were talking about - so sorry about the inefficient worker action there). Worker moves to Iron forest.

IBT: Enrico Fermi has been born in a far away land. A Numidian shows up near travelling catapult and sword.

233 - 995 AD: London: Catapult => Axeman (3). York: Catapult => Catapult (5).

IBT: Taoism has been founded in a distant land. Numidian gets closer to our iron. Hmm. That's not very well protected.......

234 - 1010 AD: Kumbi: Worker => Spearman. Iron: Catapult => Spearman. Iron spear moves onto Iron mine to hopefully protect from Numidian.

IBT: Numidian withdraws from combat with our spearman. Our 3 known enemies have at least 7 techs on us now.

235 - 1025 AD: Nottingham: Swordsman => Swordsman (4). Our 1.1/4 Spearman defeats the 0.8/5 Numidian. Threat to Iron mine averted for now.

IBT: Nothing.

236 - 1040 AD: London: Axeman => Chariot (sorry, forgot that last time). Southern stack spots Athens. It is on a hill and currently guarded by 3 Longbowmen (1 x CG2) and a Phalanx. Our stack has 2 Swordsmen, 7 catapults, 2 axemen, and 4 spearmen.

IBT: Nothing.

Summary: I might stop here, but seeing as there are only 2.5 turns left in my set, I might as well hand over as well. The big decision now is what to do about Athens. Someone needs to work out the attacking odds and chance of success with our stack. Bear in mind the possible need to maneouvre around the river that blocks the direct attack route, which may take several turns. Note that Athens has Chichen Itza and carries 85% city defence now.



http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm6/Geezers_SG006_AD1055_01.CivWarlordsSave

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I'm not certain but I have a sneaking suspicion that Athens may be on a one tile hill. I'm tempted to send our stack scouting for the rest of Alex's cities in the south. In the meantime we can send a stack out from Iron city to raze elephant city and then head south to join up with the rest of our forces.

 

[Harbourboy]

Yes, I think we might a serious re-think of the Athens attack. Might not be optimal for us right now.

 

[markh]

No, no, no. Keep it going HB. Our stack is more than enough to raze Athens. 7 pults will take anything. What do we want more ? 20 cats, 40 maces ? Raze that city, even if we lose our complete stack (what I doubt BTW).

 

[The-Hawk]

Our stack is more than enough to raze Athens. 7 pults will take anything.

Agreed. Once we bombard Athens down, we should have no trouble taking it, unless Alex brings some reinforcements. We have plenty of units, should only lose 4-5 cats unless we get unlucky.

Once we get a better look at Athens, we should discuss raze vs. keep. I would lean towards razing for all the reasons we've mentioned before. Also, Chicken Itzy does nothing for me. However, if Athens in the far SW corner of the island, we might keep it if it is high commerce or high production. We'll be turning to the East and North for the rest of Alex's cities, then on to Hanny. The pillaging risk at Athens will be much less if there are no AI cities fuurther to the S or W. Our SOD will be between the AI's and Athens.

My only worry is where are Alex's units? He is ahead of us on power, must have a stack somewhere.

 

[Harbourboy]

Maybe they are on a galley coming around the long way.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

My only worry is where are Alex's units? He is ahead of us on power, must have a stack somewhere.

IIRC the power graph gives a lot of weight to walls and LBs. ISTR pop size may also count as well.

This thread gives the details.

Given the comments above can I assume that HB will play a couple more turns to move onto the hills so we can see more details of Athens' location or is that up to me now?

 

[Harbourboy]

I figured you might as well carry on from here, seeing as we have stopped now anyway. My PC has been playing up a bit lately, so no guarantees it will even be working tomorrow.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Ok, unless anyone disagrees I'll play a couple of turns in a few hours to move onto the hills by Athens and then stop and post a pic for the team's edification.