SGOTM 06 - Misfits

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

What's Skype? I have Yahoo Messenger... and MSN at home.

I'll be replying as well, it's just been a busy morning!

 

[namliaM]

Cool, messages Looking forward to your feedback....

Uhm, my nick on both is namliam_eht if you care to contact me

Feel free to do so about the game or just for random chatter... I allways like to chat to fellow civ-ers

 

[ChrisFromLux]

Our warrior (Brave heart?)
Do we want to go Bushman 2 with him and explore around a little? OR Get him to Combat/Medic and bring him home? We are going to do a lot of battling and can use a Medic...
We can probably get a medic (chariot? or some other unit) someplace else later on easy enough... And we cannot scout around freely for long, soon-ish units will start roling in to attack our *Ahem* empire. I think we can really use the scouting.

I would go to Bushman2 to turn him into a faster scout, well protected in the woods ...

Build que
Warriors all the way untill we can start the settler at size 4 I think. In total we want/need (I think) atleast 3 warriors "at home" and 1 out exploring a little (where is our closest enemy and where are the others?) Now that the cat is out of the box... no harm in finding it. Or cats as the case may be.
3 warriors "at home" to me means 1 in the Capitol and 2 to escort and/or pre-fogbust for the settler to go to his new home. What do you all think?

I would build Warriors, until we build the settler or get Bronze/Horses/Archery ... 3 warriors "at home" is what I usually try to have ...

So I make a little more maps...

pre-bronze/iron: I cleary prefer N°1, because there's the possibility to build a nice city in the SE, giving access to banana, horses and maybe another resource, as well as a better city giving access to the stone.
In dot-map2, I don't like city blue_X and I don't like city F, which has lost the banana, just to get stone. Do we really want to build early Stone-Wonders, or conquer them from our 'friends'?

Can this fish be pillaged before Astronomy? I know in BTS it cannot, but in Warlords?

In my opinion (but I haven't tested), this fish can't be pillaged, because it's in the ocean, so out of reach for galleons/triremes, and caravels can't pillage. So, yes, AI should need Astronomy ...

Does the happy face disappear with obsoleet of the Obelisk? Anyone know? Or test someone?

About the happy face for the obelisk/monument: I'm not 100% sure, but I think we'll lose it as soon as the monument gets obsolete. In the game I checked, I had built Stonehenge, and now (much later), no city has a monument anymore. And no happy-face, by the way ...

 

[namliaM]

I don't like city F, which has lost the banana,

That banana is the rightfull property of LONDON So F vs C doesnt lose the Banana so much as it does the Rice which goes to B in No 2.
F can also be jumped back over the mountains (2 west of its current location)

build early Stone-Wonders, or conquer them from our 'friends'?

I know what I am looking for.... and you dont need the stone to get it/speed it up => Units!

I am not even sure we need many barracks not right away anyway 4 unpromoted Chariots to harras the AI (stop them from connecting resources) are much better than having only 2 Chariots but promoted (i.e. build a barracks first)

In my opinion (but I haven't tested), this fish can't be pillaged, because it's in the ocean, so out of reach for galleons/triremes, and caravels can't pillage. So, yes, AI should need Astronomy ...

Hmz, I tried in world builder... and I can pillage fish on Ocean, but this is without HOFMOD offcourse. I know for sure in BTS Ocean is of limits for any foreign culture.... but Warlords HOF MOD, I am not so sure anymore
Losing the fish in city A would be "killing" but maybe we can be sure by planting a Trireme on our borders or something?

About the happy face for the obelisk/monument: I'm not 100% sure, but I think we'll lose it as soon as the monument gets obsolete. In the game I checked, I had built Stonehenge, and now (much later), no city has a monument anymore. And no happy-face, by the way ...

Stonehedge obsoleets too with calander, and the Obelisks disappear.. that I get...

I can now confirm (tested) the happy face disappears with Calander, so we might as well not build the Obelisk and save us the 45 hammers for a Chariot or some unit/Barracks or... I think Calander is just about the #1 target we are aiming for in techs...

 

[ArcadicGamer]

I forgot to mention, we probalby dont want to settle on the dye, since every happy we can get combats WW.

As for the monuments, Stonehenge built monuments disapear with the obsoleting of SH. However, built monuments still give their culture, i think. I beleive there is an article in the war room about it.

Havent had a chance to play the save, and i think i'm working over till 4am tonight so it'll be about 6am (American Central Standard) before i post the log and new save.

 

[ChrisFromLux]

Hmz, I tried in world builder... and I can pillage fish on Ocean, but this is without HOFMOD offcourse. I know for sure in BTS Ocean is of limits for any foreign culture.... but Warlords HOF MOD, I am not so sure anymore
Losing the fish in city A would be "killing" but maybe we can be sure by planting a Trireme on our borders or something?

I didn't believe you
But I have tested it as well, with HOF-Mod 2.13.001, and you can really pillage in the ocean, even with a galley/trireme ...
I knew they could enter ocean inside your cultural border, or inside a friend's border you had OB with, but I didn't know you could do that inside the cultural border of a war-enemy

I forgot to mention, we probalby dont want to settle on the dye, since every happy we can get combats WW.

Settling on the dye won't make us lose it. We still get the resource, if we know the tech (Calender). Of course, the tile is better if have a plantation on it ...
Or am I wrong again?

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Capitol EARLY (Pre Calander)
Banana (+2), Cows (+2), CC (+2), Farmed Dye (+1), Gold mine (-2) 4 Grass hills (-4) for a total of +1 food... not to great in the food dept, but this is allready size 8. We are currently capped at 6.
We will be working the Banana (+2), Cows (+2), CC (+2) and the Gold hill (-2) for +4 food at size 3 ALLWAYS I think.
Then comes the question what to do with the other 3, 4 or 5 pop extra. Beeing capped at 7 (once the gold is roaded)... or capped at 8 if we build an Obelisk or even greater hights should happiness allow it.
How should the city be improved?

We could make a cottage on the second Banana for an added commerce, but we are (I think) going to replace that by a plantation later on, so is that usefull?

I think yes on the banana cottage. We can always decide later if the +2 food and +1 health is more useful than the commerce.

Perhaps the build after the settler should be a granary, especially if we intend to whip hard. We definitely want barracks soon, too, but we can't have everything. I really don't want Hannibal on our butt before we have troops ready. In fact, I'd like to take the fight to him.

Do we want to put a cottage on the Dye or farm it? Once the cottage is a town it will be the same as having a planation on it, we have Dye else where as well for happyness we only need one... And a town gets better with PP or Free speech (should we ever get there)
A relative beeline to Calander requires the following techs (in order of beaker cost):
127 Wheel
171 Pottery
214 Sailing
256 BW
256 Writing
429 Iron Working (need this soon-ish for jungle clearing)
535 Mathmatics
750 Calander
===
2311 beakers
Soon we should be making 9 (default) + CC (1) + Banana (1) + Goldmine (7) + Trade route to new city (1) + Riverside Dye (2) + Riverside mine (1) = 22 (at size 5) Or something like that. Which makes Calander something of a 100 turns away, maybe a little less cause we add a library, but we also have to drop science from 100% once we settle the new city... and we are not there yet... so 100 turns from now is not that bad a guestimate I think?
Cottage (15) => Hamlett (30) => Village (45) => Town
Overall a cottage takes 90 turns to grow to a Town -if we work it all the time-, which is right around the time we get Calander.

Two things... Do the techs get cheaper when the other civs know them even when we're at war? If so, some of the early ones should cost a little less.

Second, are we going after sailing to get calender? We might want to consider calender vs. construction (with masonry the pre-requisite). Sadly we have no ivory, but someone else will... we might want to have cats ready when they come calling. I can deal with unhappiness much easier than death!

It all comes down to this question: To what end should we focus our (early) captitol for the time beeing and to what in the future? Toward production ... Or Finance? So lets see the options...

It's sooooo tempting for me to chose production because of the peaceful builder in me, but I think it would be a mistake. They are going to trade, and we are not. If a couple of them get ahead of us, we're doomed. This also means we need a nice GP farm so we can lightbulb some techs.

Oh, since we're working on a tech path, we might also discuss what we can live without for now. I think the religious block (med/poly/priest/mono) can sit and wait. We might by some miracle get the oracle, but at what cost? I'd say there are better wonders, even.

We can also ponder what wonders we might want should we get a city freed up to construct one.

I think the Great Wall would be perfect for a AW game, but can we get it? (That also makes a case for masonry first). Anyway, those are my thoughts..

 

[ChrisFromLux]

I think the religious block (med/poly/priest/mono) can sit and wait.

That means we'll need a library in every city for our cultural borders to expand. The library costs 135, compared to 45 for the monument.

Of course, the library gives us 2 instead of 1, and +25%, but still ...

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

That means we'll need a library in every city for our cultural borders to expand. The library costs 135, compared to 45 for the monument.

Of course, the library gives us 2 instead of 1, and +25%, but still ...

Don't monuments come with mysticism?

 

[namliaM]

Settling on the dye won't make us lose it. We still get the resource, if we know the tech (Calender). Of course, the tile is better if have a plantation on it ...
Or am I wrong again?

No you are right... but we need calander offcourse before it becomes available.... but what dye?? I presume you mean C, which is settling on Spice not Dye. Futhermore we do have another dye Source up north in E (which we all seem to like)

If only we can reach some kind of plan on the rest.

I really don't want Hannibal on our butt before we have troops ready. In fact, I'd like to take the fight to him.

This is why I might opt to build units ASAP prior to a barracks. A barracks is 75 hammers, which is the price of 2 Chariots. Having the 2 Chariots earlier, hopefully before the AI pick up resource... they should be pretty hard to get ride of for the AI... ONLY Mansa with his strength 4 skirmishers could be a pain vs Chariots.

Two things... Do the techs get cheaper when the other civs know them even when we're at war? If so, some of the early ones should cost a little less.

Not quite... the beaker count stays the same, but we get a small bonus for researching it.
This bonus is about 3% per civ we know that knows this tech ... IIRC ... There is an article on this in the war acadamy. Seeing as we are very low in beakers at the moment, we might get 1 beaker/turn for free... if we are lucky, not really something to count on, is it?

There is an article in the War acadamy about this, find it here

8) If you have a neighbor who you're thinking of killing off who has techs which you have not researched yet, it might not be worth it to kill them off UNTIL you've researched the tech (1 neighbor who knows the tech in a 7 player game will provide a 1.04 boost).

So we get a 4% boost in beaker generation per civ, 3 civs = 12% (if they all know it). 12% out of 20 Beakers = 2 beakers/turn bonus. Not a lot but still nice I think... Still not something to count on, as we cannot know what path the AI is taking on tech.

I propose we find the Copper first (if its there at all) and plan from there. The game will develop quite differently if we can grab Bronze...
First question would be: Archery, do we need Archery and if we do when?
For now, it is scheduled (for me) right after BW, presuming we cannot get at the Copper soon. If we do find copper someplace near London or E, I suggest you grab up Wheel ASAP to get both the Horses and Copper up and running.

Second, are we going after sailing to get calender?

Yes, Sailing is a prereq to Calander. The listed techs ARE NOT a suggested route, but are the quickest way we could go for Calander to guestimate how good the cottage on the Dye in London would become... I think it is pretty strong to cottage it. Cottaging the extra banana now I dont know about that, I think (but I need to think more, maybe even do some math) I would rather have a Riverside cottage we are going to keep vs a banana cottage we might destroy. Tho the +1 food offcourse is tempting.

It's sooooo tempting for me to chose production because of the peaceful builder in me, but I think it would be a mistake. They are going to trade, and we are not. If a couple of them get ahead of us, we're doomed. This also means we need a nice GP farm so we can lightbulb some techs.

I think it is quite the reason why we should orient it on production early on, with them trading unless we remove atleast 1 civ and are 2 or 3 times the average AI size, we cannot hope to keep up in tech. We need to limit their tech and power as much as possible as early as possible IMHO. This means Units => Hammers ASAP. Possibly even prior to a barracks.

Oh, since we're working on a tech path, we might also discuss what we can live without for now. I think the religious block (med/poly/priest/mono) can sit and wait. We might by some miracle get the oracle, but at what cost? I'd say there are better wonders, even.

I would opt for now to not even look at wonders.
On the other hand we DO need the religios block (or part of it) to get to Monarchy! No way we can play a decent AW game without HR.

Monuments come indeed with myst, and we need those for our city E I think... But grabbing a religion would be much easier (CoL or Philo?)

Does anyone have any techs in mind we could bulb that are important?

 

[ArcadicGamer]

Bronze was easier than we thought. 2S in capitol's FC! Wooooo.

[img=http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/4577/sgotm2470bc0000va4.th.jpg]

The Map so far. Two border discoveries. Mansa is our closest, as far as to the east goes. Hanni is to the SE, with bronze that we can see.

[img=http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/4429/north0000oc5.th.jpg]

Northern scouting

[img=http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/1496/southeast0000at9.th.jpg]

SouthEastern Scouting.

Turnset log.
Pasture Cows. Warrior NE
Warrior NE.
Warrior N-NE.
Warrior E-SE.
Warrior S-SE.
BW extra turn, someone researched it? Buddism Founded in distand land Warrior E-S
Alexander got BW. Slavery. Hannibal got Buddism. Alex's scout spotted NE. 4 turns till warrior 3.
---WAr2 W Warrior SE Worker to gold
Warrior S-S Mani's borders spotted! War2 W. Mining gold.
Warrior SW-SE. War2 W, Spices spotted.
War2 back to capitol. Warrior SE, Timbuktu spotted on plains hill with warrior. SE.
Mani got BW. Slavery.Warrior SE-S Spot lion and Alex scout.
Warrior SE, kill Lion.
War3 Built. Started War4. Moved to dye. Warrior S-SE, spot BEAR. And Hanny's borders.
Warrior SE. Farming dye now.
Warrior SE SE Alex Scout.
Started researching wheel. Copper POPS 2S of london, and in hanny's borders, Healed the warrior 1 turn, SAVED.

As you can see, both Alex and Mani have BW, and have revolted to slavery. I did not revolt right away, since it wasnt talked about. Wheel was started the turn of the save, which the turn has techincly ended, but i didnt want to force a turn onto the wheel, since we gained a turn researching in the turnset.

The farm on the dye will be done in 5 turns from the save. Warrior4, home warrior 3, will be done at the turn. Settler would be decent to start then, while finishing the farm and mining the bronze for axemen from there out. We MAY be able to axe rush mansa successfuly if that is deemed pheasable. *feasable? Killing a good techer and trader will likely kill some of the trading they will undoubtfully be doing.

Next? Wheel>Pottery>? Barracks at some point if we wish to axe rush? Need a 2nd worker to work the settler's city plus some more D for the city.

 

[ChrisFromLux]

Don't monuments come with mysticism?

Oh, of course they do. I thought you wanted to ignore the entire religious block ...
I have to stop posting that late

 

[ChrisFromLux]

Bronze was easier than we thought. 2S in capitol's FC! Wooooo.

Hmmm, they give us easy access to horses and to bronze. So what surprise is waiting for us???

We MAY be able to axe rush mansa successfuly if that is deemed pheasable. *feasable? Killing a good techer and trader will likely kill some of the trading they will undoubtfully be doing.

I like that, but we should also keep Hannibal and Alex busy with some chariots to prevent them from hooking up Horses and Bronze. We have to find out what resources they have access to.

In my opinion, as we have easy access to them, our 3 'friends' will have them as well

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

I agree with CfL, we need to get after them before they form a nasty gang...

 

[ArcadicGamer]

Harrassing both of them while killing another is something that we can do, especialy with the capitol we got right now. Settler ASAP to get horses, and we'll be in good shape to start warring.

 

[namliaM]

Hmz, you didnt upload the save to the progress page? Next time please do upload even if your set is not up yet... it helps with details (see below!)

With Copper inside our BFC (who knows what whill happen next??? Like... Uranium visible with IW?) I think we do need the Wheel. We are NOT connected to the river, should anyone doubt that... This means the Copper (once mined) will flow into the river, but NOT into the city. So we need atleast the road on the Dye to get it.
It is hard to tell how improved london is at the moment, without the save or a good closup screeny. I think we need to Mine the Copper and road the dye ASAP to start Axemen, Dont know about the extra worker either... if london is going to be stuck at size 5 or 6 it doesnt need much improving... and with Chariots we can probably snatch a worker or 2 later on... As long as London is improved we will be OK I think.

Is there more land due West of London? Looks like it... Wowsers... (can probably tell in game tho...)

Timbuktu looks like 13 tiles east of London... I am surprised he is that close... MM was the last of the AI to find us. Anybody have any idea how much the upkeep would be if we conquer it? MM is a bad target tho with his Strength 4 Skirmishers on a hill behind 40% culture defense and 25% fortification.
Considering all AI are coastal, I am guessing Alex will be south of us West of Hannibal. They would make better targets, but we need to cripple MM in the progress...

It would have been nice to see more of the Banana/Horse city site due east of the southern mountain range. It is a potential good city site.
But finding Hannibal is nice too now lets find Alex too...

There looks to be space for another city between "C" and Timbuktu. Also a nice fish and wine city up north... IF that is just about the most northern tip of our continent/pangea? maybe we can fogbust it too prevent barbs from backsiding us ?

I think we should definatly research The Wheel now... AND revolt ASAP to slavery.
We have one more turn on the Warrior, how many more for the next warrior? If 5 or less AND we only have 2 warriors "at home" we build another warrior first, then start the settler.

Revolt (1 turn) + 6 for the wheel... I know it is an odd number we are ending up on, but can you bring us that far along? Than we can try and figure out what to do next Pottery or Myst seems the two techs we need to choose from depending on the situation of development of London/progress of the settler etc.

Question at the team:
What is more pressing?
Get Axemen out (short term win by getting to our friends faster)
Get a settler to settle Rihoco (the E city, with RIce HOrses and COws)

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Why not start the settler while mining the bronze and building the road, then swap-chop the settler and axemen? Once the chops are done, we'll need to get a road to Rihoco... Horico?

I think we'll have that many turns before anyone shows up...

 

[namliaM]

My point of settler vs Axemen is that one settler = 3 axemen and it is going to take quite a while to get them earned back by the new city.

Maybe we are better off building a few axemen and growing the city to say size 6, only then to get the Settler out. This is offcourse assuming the worker can keep up with the city growth...

 

[ArcadicGamer]

Appologies, i had it all que'd up to upload and never hit ok. Save file is linked here http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm6/Misfits_SG006_BC2470_01.CivWarlordsSave

We know right now mani has BW, but not copper that we know of. Maybe Build Axe's while chopping a settler and switching it on and off would be the best solution to get one out? It's not something i have a alot of knowledge about. Its the best of both worlds, gets a couple ax's in to pillage and maybe get a lucky worker steal, while getting a settler for horses asap to do the exact same. Possibly revolt to slavery during that time also, and once pop hits a new # whipping the settler also?

I debated to myself for about 20 minutes wheather to go N or E when i hit that juncture. Glad i went e personaly.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

My point of settler vs Axemen is that one settler = 3 axemen and it is going to take quite a while to get them earned back by the new city.

Maybe we are better off building a few axemen and growing the city to say size 6, only then to get the Settler out. This is offcourse assuming the worker can keep up with the city growth...

I guess I was looking at it this way.

We can't start an axeman for 10 turns, right? (Revolt [1] / Wheel [6] / Build Road [3]) So, start the settler now, assuming we have the number of warriors to protect the city, or the time to produce an axeman before they arrive, which is 10 turns plus the time to make the axeman. (I'm not sure how many hammers we're producing right now.)

Switch to axeman while the worker moves to chop forests to the west. When the forest is almost chopped, back to settler for a turn to take the chop hammers, then back to axeman. I think in two chops we'll have a settler, an axeman, and a second axeman almost done. (If he isn't completed by the leftover hammers from the chop.

So, we have the settler and 2 axes, we grow the city while chopping, and get the horses hooked up quicker to go harass the enemy with chariots.