SGOTM 06 - Misfits

[ChrisFromLux]

I've read the article about WW in the War Academy, and I've read the corresponding thread, but I still don't know why meeting them some turns earlier will raise WW.
As I understand the article and the formula, it's all about combat

In order to be a bit helpful, I've generated a map with our starting location, and I've played namlia's 1st option (whipping worker).
The tiles I've been working:
- banana on size 1 (cows for the 8 first turns, of course)
- cows on size 2
- dye on size 3
- lake on size 4

This gave me, up to T70:
- Worker on T24, 3x idle until T70
- Warriors on T30, T34 and T46
- Barracks for 1 pop only on T59
- promoted Archers on T64 and T70
- 5 turns to go for pottery

To sum it up, your calculations (for option 1) seem to be correct

I'll also try out/verify option 2, and I've attached my starting save for those interested ...
By the way: we don't need 'Fishing', it's our starting tech

 

[ChrisFromLux]

I've also played namlia's 2nd option (building worker).
The tiles I've been working:
- banana on size 1 (cows for the 8 first turns, of course)
- cows on size 2
- dye on size 3
- gold on size 4

This gave me, until T63:
- Worker on T23, 2x idle until T63
- Warriors on T41, T48, T54 and T58
- Barracks for 2 pop on T59
- promoted Archers on T61 and T63(getting the chopped hill )
- 6 turns to go for pottery
- stopped playing 7 turns earlier than option 1!!!

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

So at what point are we going to get a settler out?

 

[ChrisFromLux]

For the settler:
- if we just build it: T78 (London 1T from size4)
- build it, using 1 chop: T75 (London 1T from size4)
- grow to size 4 before building, whip for 2pop : T71 (London size 2!)

 

[ArcadicGamer]

In addition to what namlia said, the quicker they meet us and declare war, the faster they pile up the "mutual struggle" points. I wish I were one of those code monkeys who understands all the game mechanics, but don't those points just keep accumulating?

Pretty sure the have a cap, for each leader its different, but it wont matter regardless since its enough points to get them pleased/friendly alone. Which brings me to a later game point, we don't ever want to build a caraval to scout the seas. They should have to come to us, imo. Thats for a much later discussion however. (this will also increase the possibility of a war between them, and keep their teching at a reasonable level.)

Before i input on which tree would do better, which produces a settler faster? I would assume the first with the larger pop, but it might be releativly close. The next in the que would have to be a settler. BW is almost nessisary as a 1st or 2nd tech so we can plan around bronze, and if its missing get IW for the jungle and to see if iron is around. 1 has to be there, or the GOTM staff is pretty evil SOB's.

 

[namliaM]

In addition to what namlia said, the quicker they meet us and declare war, the faster they pile up the "mutual struggle" points. I wish I were one of those code monkeys who understands all the game mechanics, but don't those points just keep accumulating?

I dont think so, there is a cap someplace I think... but I am not sure. Also the mutual strungle only applies if they also know eachother... so if we meet someone from another continent that doesnt know anybody else we know... there is no harm really... Except maybe the visiting part....

WW only comes from combat IIRC...so meeting someone doesnt have any effect on that!

@Chris
Thanks for your play testing...
Sorry about the Fishing thing, I missed that
So it seems Chris you agree with me, that option 2 seems to be better than option 1?

I really hate to whip for 1 pop... Generaly it is better to whip for 2, but we would have to investigate that... we have to balance whip/grow/units/commerce I dont think we should start the Settler at the point that chris did (1 turn from growing?) Generaly IMHO not a good idea.

I will try to get out the magic spreadsheet and see what I can do about AH earlier (is that a real option at all? To skip Agriculture? The +1 food of the Banana with the farm IMHO is just to good to pass up)
I will also try and see what I can do with producing a settler.

One thing we do need to confirm ASAP is...
Are we alone on an island? Or do we have neighbours? And if we have neighbours, who are they, more importantly where are they at?
This will be very important for us to find out what way to expand and what number of units we want/need.

More later....

 

[ChrisFromLux]

...
WW only comes from combat IIRC...so meeting someone doesnt have any effect on that!
...

Now I'm really confused ... first you tell me we should not scout in order to delay meeting the other civs; even delaying that 1 turn could be crucial ...

I say that in my opinion, WW only comes from combat, but all of you don't agree ...

and now namlia confirms that it only comes from combat ...

 

[namliaM]

I am just presuming a granary to be our next build for the moment...

1a) Option one the early settler is at turn 71...
Finish the second Archer, immediatly start the settler (T64), whip for 2 at turn 70, Settler ready to go in 71. The following granary is done at T85
T90: City at size 4, 26 food, 31 hammers 550 Commerce after pottery

2a) A settler at the earliest in option 2 is at turn 75.
Finish the second archer I think just one turn before growing to size 4 (T67), wait one turn and start (T68) a settler, whip it for 2 pop at turn 74, done in 75. Presuming we want a granary next, this will be finished T88.
T90: City at size 4, 37 food, 16 hammers and 619 commerce after Pottery

Optimum for whipping tho is one turn before you grow to the next size.
So using "Proper" whipping
1b) option 1 will delay the settler to Turn 76
Granary started after the archer and continued after the Settler. Granary done in turn 83.
T90: City size 4, 22 food, 43 Hammers and 602 commerce after pottery

2b) Option 2 will delay the settler to turn 83!
Granary started after the archer and continued after the Settler. Granary done in turn 86.
T90: city size 3, 21 food, 26 hammers and 721 commerce

 

[ChrisFromLux]

For the settler:
- if we just build it: T78 (London 1T from size4)
- build it, using 1 chop: T75 (London 1T from size4)
- grow to size 4 before building, whip for 2pop : T71 (London size 2!)

I shouldn't have done this testing at 01:30AM I didn't see that London was 1 turn from growing until I posted here ...

I've redone the Tests, letting London grow to size 4 first: the production speed of the settler doesn't change, but we have 2 more/turn and 1 turn to start something else ...

 

[ChrisFromLux]

Another thing: I think we should get up our roster, so that the first player can move the warrior (SW?) to see more of our land.

This way, we can decide whether we settle in place (choosing one of namlia's options) or if there is another interesting spot we can make calculations for, thus being sure we have resources (banana/gold) for a close 2nd city, as ArcadicGamer proposed ...

 

[namliaM]

Why dont we stick to the order that is on the roster AlanH made?
Roster:
ArcadicGamer
ChrisFromLux
CNWJR
MaroWaker
Mastiff_of_Ar
namliaM

Which would make AG our lead off man... (not that many woman around, so I hope I am right)

Moving the settler anything west, to me is not an option... Losing the banana is just to big a thing loss

1S and settle on top of the Dye? Dont think so...
2S and lose the cows? Would have to be pretty good.
Current location,
2 plains tiles (-2 food)
4 hills (-4 food)
Gold hill (-2 food)
Banana (+3 food)
Cows (+2 food)
CC (+2 food) => Overall -1 food
1SE, lose 1 turn and 1 forrest, as well as start with only 5 health untill we can chop them jungles??
Add the gold river hill too, for +1 GPT ALL GAME LONG as well as add 3 (jungle) grassland river tiles for +3GPT for a long time...
4 grass hills (-4 food)
1 Plains hill (-2 food)
Banana (+3 food)
Cows (+2 food)
CC (+2 food) => Overall -1 food
1E, lose 1 turn and 1 forrest, only 1 jungle but pick up the plains hill.
1 Plains tile (-1 food)
5 grass hills (-5 food)
2 Plains hills (-4 food)
Banana (+3 food)
Cows (+2 food)
CC (+2 food) => Overall -3 food
2E, lose 2 turn and pick up the gold tile for +1GPT ALL GAME LONG
4 grass hills (-4 food)
2 plains hills (-4 food)
Banana (+3 food)
Cows (+2 food)
CC (+2 food) => Overall -1 food

In the food department they are not all that different.

Moving 1SE to me certainly has its apeal... Getting +1GPT all game long (>300 turns?) and another +3GPT a little less long (250 turns?) + library bonus + Burocracy + Markets/University/etc.... That gets into 5 or 6GPT bonus most game long... tho we would probably pick that up in another city at some point if we dont take the capitol there.

We are moving to a hill, if the tile 2W of the warrior is indeed flat grassland (what it looks to be) it should also reveal the mistery tile W-SW of the settler. The tile w-w of the settler is forrest => No resource. The one W-SW could be a resource... and could be crutial to our desicion... so I think yes, we should move our warrior SW and do it ASAP to further our discusion(s).

Looking more closely at the save, the tile SW-SW of the settler I marked PT, could also be water, thereby making the location SW coastal, but coastal doesnt help much I think at AW, due to the trade routes beeing (much) less profitable due to the fact of ONLY local routes. Later on we may want to look at Mercantalism, maybe even prioritize banking for this reason?

IF those 2 tiles are water and the tiles to our NW are for certain water... We could be looking at the western edges of our continent/island there... Or atleast choke points which would be defendable... both are nice, if there is indeed coast there, that might favour us moving the settler east, depening on how much land there is left... which is going to be an educated gamble at best...?

 

[AlanH]

Why dont we stick to the order that is on the roster AlanH made?

lurker's comment: That's what we call "Alphabetical Order" where I come from

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Start with anyone but me! namlia seems to have a good grip on the start, Chris is right up there, and AG seems to know quite a bit, too. The first two of you guys have been on discussing quite a bit, so I'd say let namlia start just so we can move that warrior!

 

[namliaM]

LOL, I didnt notice that one AlanH...

Anyhow Option 3... research AH ASAP.
3a) Which means Hunting => AH => Agriculture => BW=> Archery => Wheel=> Pottery
Worker: Pasture => Mine gold => Farm Banana => Farm Dye => Mine Grass hill => More stuff
Buildorder city: Worker => 3 Warriors => 3 Archers (Stop third archer for settler) => Settler (just before growing to size 5 AND helped by chop), Whip for 2 at turn 67, out in turn 68 => Finish 3rd archer => Granary
NOTICE: No barracks (do we need one at all this early?)

T90: Size 5!, 28 Food, 60 hammers, 715 commerce after Granary/pottery

I did this a little quick and I think we need to look at the other options without barracks... as well as 3b

@Chris, The 1 turn delay will delay their visits and attempts to pillage our lands and potentially halt our Workers from working the lands. This can be crutial... WW Points IIRC from the war acadamy (I will look up the article tomorrow to make sure) only happens from battle...
Killing units (or ours dying) and taking cities (or razing them) or our cities beeing taken/razed. Also late in the game, Nukes drive WW crazy!

 

[cnwjr]

For now, you will have to count me out on the game. I am unable to load the save file (protected assets error). I have neither the time nor the inclination to tinker with it for the forseeable future.

 

[namliaM]

I think AlanH posted a nice "how to" in the recruitment post...

 

[namliaM]

I have taken the liberty of moving the warrior to further our efforts, I think we all were agreeing on moving him SW anyways.


Is it even worth considering moving east now? Maybe it is... to open up the coastline to the west for antother city?
The tile inbetween the water bodies (just SW of the gold) is a jungle tile.

So what to do? Settle in place? Or go walkabout (meaning moving 2 east)?

 

[namliaM]

1c) If we skip the barracks... untill we get the settler out
Build order: Warrior (11 turns, break for worker) => Worker => 4 Warriors => Start Archer (Stop short for the settler, which starts just before growing to 5) => Settler (whip for 2)
Settler out in turn 63!

Mind you we have 5 warriors at this point with 2 (unpromoted) archers following in T64 and T70.
We could then start a Granary, with an added whip of a barracks (again just before growing to 5) finishing at T83

T90: Size 4, 20 food, 51 hammers, 411 commerce

2c) No barracks either
Build order: Worker => 3 Warriors => Archer (T58) => Settler (just before growing to 5 and whip for 2 pop) => Archer (T69)
Settler out by turn 65!

barracks whipped during Granary build (T82), Granary done in T85
T90: Size 4, 10 food, 33 hammers, 689 commerce

I think I like 2c with the most commerce goings on... The 3 warriors and Archer can fogbust ahead of the settler allowing for free passage....
Also getting an archer before the settler will allow us to more effectively deal with any visitors while building the settler.

 

[ArcadicGamer]

Settle in place or SE is my opinion. In place looks better, mainly because of the jungle to the se. 3w of the settler looks to be a good 2nd city if metal shows there, if not a good 3rd.

 

[ChrisFromLux]

...
@Chris, The 1 turn delay will delay their visits and attempts to pillage ...

Ah, OK, now I finally got it!

...
3w of the settler looks to be a good 2nd city if metal shows there
...

Looks more like a coastal city to me; I don't think we'll find metal there.


As for where to settle London, I vote for settling in place, using namlia's option 2c! For a 2nd city to the east, we can still take eastern banana/gold into the FC ...
Another city on the western coast could be in the S of London, as the blue circle could indicate the presence of seafood, maybe ...