ruff_hi
Live 4ever! Or die trying
Do you see that sort of site very often?Mine is one with 20 grassland gems
SGOTM 06 - The Real Ms. Beyond
- Thread starter AlanH
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http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm6/The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG006_AD0275_01.CivWarlordsSave
185 AD
Ouch - I can't believe London is still just size 5 and double whipped.
Our positive cash flow is to low. We need to start prioritizing the economy.
I am starting to wonder how out of sync I am with the team. I disagree with to many of the little items such as the dye cottage, and whipping York back to size three.
I still think the dyes cottage at London is a mistake. I really hate relying on a single source of happiness that can get pillaged and screw up multiple cities. Dyes are only +1 gold without improvement, and that little income IMHO doesn't justify the risk of the whole empire losing access to the other dye due to pillaging.
215 AD
Scratch a stray Numidian.
230 AD
How is the Oracle still available to build?
We aren't fighting all of the civs...
(IT) I've seen no clear discussion on tech path, so I picked CoL to help salvage the economy.
245 AD
However, science dropped to zero so nothing is invested. We are now making -2 dollars at zero science. I really hope Athens coming on-line helps fix this.
260 AD
The bombardment of Sparta begins.
275 AD
The assault of Sparta begins. Our first catapult lost at 65% odds, but the CG1 archer is broken. I then proceed to take Sparta with no more losses. We gain Stonehenge, granary and lighthouse. However, this is no Christian Shrine.
=======================
New Updates
Beyond Sparta I didn't see a clear plan, so I stopped after taking it.
Taking Sparta helped our score a lot. Once we get all those border expansion, we should jump again.
I started exploring south of Athens, and it looks like there is a lot of tundra garbage down there. The land mass may be bigger then we first thought.
I started building a stack by Corinth. I wasn't sure where we were heading next, and this is at least a central area to build up.
185 AD
Ouch - I can't believe London is still just size 5 and double whipped.
Our positive cash flow is to low. We need to start prioritizing the economy.
I am starting to wonder how out of sync I am with the team. I disagree with to many of the little items such as the dye cottage, and whipping York back to size three.
I still think the dyes cottage at London is a mistake. I really hate relying on a single source of happiness that can get pillaged and screw up multiple cities. Dyes are only +1 gold without improvement, and that little income IMHO doesn't justify the risk of the whole empire losing access to the other dye due to pillaging.
215 AD
Scratch a stray Numidian.
230 AD
How is the Oracle still available to build?
We aren't fighting all of the civs...
(IT) I've seen no clear discussion on tech path, so I picked CoL to help salvage the economy.
245 AD
However, science dropped to zero so nothing is invested. We are now making -2 dollars at zero science. I really hope Athens coming on-line helps fix this.
260 AD
The bombardment of Sparta begins.
275 AD
The assault of Sparta begins. Our first catapult lost at 65% odds, but the CG1 archer is broken. I then proceed to take Sparta with no more losses. We gain Stonehenge, granary and lighthouse. However, this is no Christian Shrine.
Spoiler :
=======================
New Updates
Beyond Sparta I didn't see a clear plan, so I stopped after taking it.
Taking Sparta helped our score a lot. Once we get all those border expansion, we should jump again.
I started exploring south of Athens, and it looks like there is a lot of tundra garbage down there. The land mass may be bigger then we first thought.
I started building a stack by Corinth. I wasn't sure where we were heading next, and this is at least a central area to build up.
Compromise
Emperor
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For the first time ever, I actually looked at one of the Turn Logs that sometimes get posted on these reports. I couldn't help but laugh. I think you lost 3 battles that had better than 50% odds, and didn't win any that you were expected to lose. I'm pretty sure the game's RNG generator has a "LKendter" bias that means that odds are only even at about 60%.
Well played, Lee. And a good stopping point too. Good thinking to look south of Athens. Still no evidence of any other AIs though.
Our economy is...in shambles. How do we want to fix it? Or do we need to? With cats, swords and elephants, it will be no trouble at all to eliminate the rest of the AIs here.
Also, it's time to start talking about great people. The clock has started with our capture of Stonehenge. We can easily expedite a priest by discovering Priesthood and recruiting a temple denizen. Or, we could take advantage of Athens' food a get a scientist quickly. Actually, if we work at it, we could probably get two scientists before Stonehenge pops a prophet. We can probably use them to expedite Astronomy, right?
Well played, Lee. And a good stopping point too. Good thinking to look south of Athens. Still no evidence of any other AIs though.
Our economy is...in shambles. How do we want to fix it? Or do we need to? With cats, swords and elephants, it will be no trouble at all to eliminate the rest of the AIs here.
Also, it's time to start talking about great people. The clock has started with our capture of Stonehenge. We can easily expedite a priest by discovering Priesthood and recruiting a temple denizen. Or, we could take advantage of Athens' food a get a scientist quickly. Actually, if we work at it, we could probably get two scientists before Stonehenge pops a prophet. We can probably use them to expedite Astronomy, right?
Swiss Pauli
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Had a look at the save and have the following comments:
- I'm suprised we went to Sparta without a Spear or Jumbo, leaving us vulnerable to a chariot attack. Can we move the spear from Thebes to Sparta via the approach road from Hannibal?
- Please cancel the library in Corinth: this is a production town with little commerce potential in the medium term.
- Let's whip Athens' Library (and why is there a citizen assigned?).
- Where next? Hannibal, obviously. I think we should move ASAP, so get the cats out of Corinth, but we should move the Axe/Jumbo to 1N of the city to see whether it has another source of food than the plains cows we can see. It is a shame to raze a size 7 city, but we should so if it's as food poor as it looks now.
- Mansa has a settler party near York. I assume he'll found on the current tile for Rice/Cows/Stone. How kind of him!
- Let's get an exploring WB out of Athens to check whether Ragnar-gate is possible. This will help us decide the GP policy.
- I assume Alex LB'd Theo with his Henge prophet.
- Although I'd said to finish Monarchy after Sailing, I think CoL is better as we have a high happy ceiling.
- I'm suprised we went to Sparta without a Spear or Jumbo, leaving us vulnerable to a chariot attack. Can we move the spear from Thebes to Sparta via the approach road from Hannibal?
- Please cancel the library in Corinth: this is a production town with little commerce potential in the medium term.
- Let's whip Athens' Library (and why is there a citizen assigned?).
- Where next? Hannibal, obviously. I think we should move ASAP, so get the cats out of Corinth, but we should move the Axe/Jumbo to 1N of the city to see whether it has another source of food than the plains cows we can see. It is a shame to raze a size 7 city, but we should so if it's as food poor as it looks now.
- Mansa has a settler party near York. I assume he'll found on the current tile for Rice/Cows/Stone. How kind of him!
- Let's get an exploring WB out of Athens to check whether Ragnar-gate is possible. This will help us decide the GP policy.
- I assume Alex LB'd Theo with his Henge prophet.
- Although I'd said to finish Monarchy after Sailing, I think CoL is better as we have a high happy ceiling.
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At this point I think it would be a shame to keep any more cities. We are at negative cash flow at 0% science. Another city or two could put us on strike.
Swiss Pauli
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Lee, we're not negative, we're positive (just). And you've built up a big cash reserve, too. We're also paying for upkeep on those southern exploring units and the workers south of Athens chopping that tundra forest.
If London works its cottages more as it grows to the new happy cap, and we cottage Thebes, Athens, and Sparta, we'll turn the economy round. Until then we can survive on city conquest cash and use that for the run to CoL.
If we begin to crash, we can delete some warriors and chariots.
Think positive guys!
If London works its cottages more as it grows to the new happy cap, and we cottage Thebes, Athens, and Sparta, we'll turn the economy round. Until then we can survive on city conquest cash and use that for the run to CoL.
If we begin to crash, we can delete some warriors and chariots.
Think positive guys!
ruff_hi
Live 4ever! Or die trying
This is interesting. I'm going to crack open the latest save and take a look at the domination limit. Wouldn't it be nice if one of these GOTM's was won by a non-conquest means?
PS: why does that bunny have a pancake on its head?
Edit: It turns out that this pic is all over the internet. The bunny (RIP) even has its own entry in that most trustworthy of websites.
Edit2: Borg Bunny
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I can tell we really look at the game differently. I suffered badly in several solo AW attempts. The common thread was collapsing economy and the AI getting better units.
I consider 0% science totally unacceptable except at end game for the final domination push, or the tail end of a war where the ONLY reason for low science is high WW.
I agree we badly need to get more conquest cash from razing more AI cities, and pillage mania. We need to get to the point that we can get courts in place and start to turn things around.
After that Athens disaster, I've lost my ability to think positive in this game.
Kodii
Ka ICE
Got it.
I'll whip up the save and take a look.
I'll whip up the save and take a look.
Kodii
Ka ICE
We're in better shape than I expected (excluding our economy). I think that we have enough troops near Hadrumetum to raze that city. Then when our troops in Hadrumetum and Sparta heal, they can converge to attack and keep Carthage, then wipe up from there.
Mansa is essentially already screwed without resources, but we probably want to tackle him down before he gets Feudalism.
How feasible would it be, considering our current shield production and economy, to clear right through Hannibal and then Mansa?
Assuming Mansa doesn't get LBs anytime soon, I think its possible, whilst sending searching WBs and converting some of our core cities into economic cities.
Mansa is essentially already screwed without resources, but we probably want to tackle him down before he gets Feudalism.
How feasible would it be, considering our current shield production and economy, to clear right through Hannibal and then Mansa?
Assuming Mansa doesn't get LBs anytime soon, I think its possible, whilst sending searching WBs and converting some of our core cities into economic cities.
Swiss Pauli
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Hard to say about Mansa. Maybe we'd be best sending a PP his way once we capture Carthage? In any event, Mansa's LB's are only 2 str more than his skirmishers, so it's not that tragic if we can't take him before he gets Feudalism.
Swiss Pauli
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@Lee: just look at our curve...if we can keep up that trajectory we'll be up near CRC 
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ruff_hi
Live 4ever! Or die trying
Edit: see 3 posts down for real thinking. This post and 2 down are wrong - sorry.
I think that we need to push 100% for a settler spam now. Look at this ...
The dom limit is 64%. We currently own 76 tiles / 15.66% giving a total land tile count of approx 485. Therefore the land target for dom is about 311. There are 488 tiles in the above pictures (which sort of makes my tile calculations a little funny). Something is fishy. Can the next person to run a set please turn on ALERTS and set the domination warnings to 100% - that will generate a warning that we are within 100% of domination and give us our domination targets.
I think that we need to push 100% for a settler spam now. Look at this ...
The dom limit is 64%. We currently own 76 tiles / 15.66% giving a total land tile count of approx 485. Therefore the land target for dom is about 311. There are 488 tiles in the above pictures (which sort of makes my tile calculations a little funny). Something is fishy. Can the next person to run a set please turn on ALERTS and set the domination warnings to 100% - that will generate a warning that we are within 100% of domination and give us our domination targets.
ruff_hi
Live 4ever! Or die trying
actually - you have to fiddle with the underlying HOF ini file to get those messages - do you want me to click enter and upload the save at the START of next turn so that we can get the official limit?
Edit: ignore this offer - not going to help us.
Edit: ignore this offer - not going to help us.
Swiss Pauli
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I think something's gone weird with the Dom calculations in this game. Anyone know how the game makes these reckonings? Maybe Gyathaar has messed with this part to confuse everyone?
ruff_hi
Live 4ever! Or die trying
Edit: see next post for real thinking. This post is wrong - sorry.
The usual way I calc the number of land tiles required is look at our land squ miles (F9, statistics), divide that by 1000 which gives us the number of tiles we currently control (76 in this case), look at our dom %age (F8) (15.66% in this case) and do the maths ... 76 / .1566 = 485.31 - it is always a little off for some reason. Alerts will give you the true dom tile count if we turn it on and turn up the warning range from the default 5% to 100% (need to manually edit the HOF.ini file to put in 100%).
As we can see about 500 tiles, it sort of means that the islands are really tiny.
The usual way I calc the number of land tiles required is look at our land squ miles (F9, statistics), divide that by 1000 which gives us the number of tiles we currently control (76 in this case), look at our dom %age (F8) (15.66% in this case) and do the maths ... 76 / .1566 = 485.31 - it is always a little off for some reason. Alerts will give you the true dom tile count if we turn it on and turn up the warning range from the default 5% to 100% (need to manually edit the HOF.ini file to put in 100%).
As we can see about 500 tiles, it sort of means that the islands are really tiny.
ruff_hi
Live 4ever! Or die trying
ok, I'm a moron ... 15.66% is our pop %age. Our land %age is 6.23% ... therefore total land is 1220. Tiles required for dom = 781. Guess the settler spam on our land will not get us there.
Ignore all of the above posts ... sigh.
Ignore all of the above posts ... sigh.
Compromise
Emperor
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Good efforts, ruff. I actually made a quick calculation a while back (found it in post #136) of the domination land requirements. It looks like our numbers agree. Also, it looks like the assumption that there isn't enough land on the starting continent to dominate is true.
It is a good point, though. Especially with Stonehenge (or more efficiently Caste System), we might be able to find enough islands to get domination. These "Big and Small" maps typically have one big continent (ours, obviously) and a bunch of small islands. If the small islands are within galley range, we can do the settler spam and still win an early domination victory. We'll want a workboat or trireme out of Athens soon to check the west coast. And one out of Carthage to look east. Triremes would be safer from barb and/or Ragnar galleys.
I thought Swiss's comments on the latest save were good. I wouldn't pillage Mansa too much (except if he happens to find or pop strategic resources). We'll want his land nice and improved if we are to keep any of his cities.
Anyone very experienced with a specialist economy? It might be of use to us here since we're likely to overexpand quickly. (Probably already have done so.)
I'm short of posting time, so that's it for now.
It is a good point, though. Especially with Stonehenge (or more efficiently Caste System), we might be able to find enough islands to get domination. These "Big and Small" maps typically have one big continent (ours, obviously) and a bunch of small islands. If the small islands are within galley range, we can do the settler spam and still win an early domination victory. We'll want a workboat or trireme out of Athens soon to check the west coast. And one out of Carthage to look east. Triremes would be safer from barb and/or Ragnar galleys.
I thought Swiss's comments on the latest save were good. I wouldn't pillage Mansa too much (except if he happens to find or pop strategic resources). We'll want his land nice and improved if we are to keep any of his cities.
Anyone very experienced with a specialist economy? It might be of use to us here since we're likely to overexpand quickly. (Probably already have done so.)
I'm short of posting time, so that's it for now.
Kodii
Ka ICE
I would have played today, but I ended up working ALL day... which is extremely fun on a Saturday. And for double the fun, I work all tomorrow morning and most of the afternoon. I can probably play tomorrow evening, but if you are itching to keep moving, swap me.
Compromise
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I think tomorrow is fine.
On a related note, I have sunrise on deck, but I'm not sure he's confirmed that he can load and play the saves yet. Sunrise, what's your availability over the next few days?
On a related note, I have sunrise on deck, but I'm not sure he's confirmed that he can load and play the saves yet. Sunrise, what's your availability over the next few days?
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