SGOTM 06 - The Real Ms. Beyond

Construction is a long way off, and I really think we need Iron & Swords (and we want to know whether the AIs have Iron), so I'd say IW before the Construction beeline.

Also, I didn't train an axe before the settler (Death or Glory) so an axeshould be next. No AI units spotted, save for a Malian Scout who sniffing round London.
 
No garrison for the new settler/city on Always War...death or glory indeed! It should be okay, though; there are warriors nearby. I think the priority in the new city should be pure military: a barracks, then troops. It need horses (with road) asap, then the cows. After that, it's probably more important to build roads than anything else.

From what I see now, I think Athens is our next city. We'll need a fair number of troops since it's on a hill. Maybe 6 axes, a spear and a chariot? Does that seem about right? I agree that we need some scouting down there.

Eventually, I think our capital should become a commerce city with lots of cottages. We'll want to get troops to the front quickly, so those will probably want to come from the front lines.

What next for tech? Hunting will allow spears. Do we want to detour for Archery? I'd say no, and press on to Ironworking. Maybe a new city location will become obvious when Iron is revealed. After that, I think we should get to construction as quickly as possible.

Lee, I think you're up. How's your availability in a day or two?
 
Lee, I think you're up. How's your availability in a day or two?

Since you are running the show, can you confirm I am up rather then the unsure version above?
Can you post an updated roster? I've gone back several pages and can't find one.

I am pretty much back to my normal routine. Monday through Thursday always good, with Friday / Saturday good some weekends.

I will try and post turn ideas tonight.
 
Lee is confirmed up next. For future reference, the roster will always be in post #2 of this thread.

I think you can probably garrison the second city with one of the warriors who is fogbusting up N, NE of the capital.

As I see it now--everyone feel free to debate--the goal of that second city (to be located 1NW of the horses) is simply to acquire horses and to pump out troops. It will work the horses (the first thing to get improved) and the cows. It will grow slowly, but with two improvements, it can pump 9hpt at size 2, which isn't bad at this stage in the game. If it earns us an AI city or two early on, it will be worth it.
 
Ruff_Hi -- dropped out
What is this? That is what I call a harsh social comment. I haven't dropped out ... just ... errr ... moved to lurker status ... yes, that is the ticket. Don't worry - I will be popping in with suitable comments on poor play (:D) and ideas regarding future direction occasionally.
 
:) Sorry ruff. I'll make the edit. Please feel free to sprinkle this thread with abuse or advice as appropriate!
 
I can tell the Christmas break was bad for me with this game. I really feel out of touch with it.

The question mark I see is hunting before iron working. At least we would have defense when AI mounted units arrive. I am in favor of hunting and plan to go that way tomorrow unless there are objections.

I will settler horse / cow city.

I will get an axe heading toward Alex to hopefully blockade his capitol.

How soon to we want another worker? We have no cottages at this time.

I don't see much else to plan for with this turn.
 
Comments:

- We will need about 10 'CR1 axe equivalents' based on my test game (if Alex has no melee units). We can fill out that number with chariots, so something like 6 axes, 6 chariots will do.

- Hunting is essentially a 'defensive' move, but it might be a necessary 'evil'. My heart says IW and my head Hunting.

- London can spam cottages post Calendar (banana plantations). My test game revealed that it's not too rich in food at this time, so farm it for now, as we want max growth possibility (and have the happy from CHM to whip a lot).

- 2nd worker? After a couple of axes, I'd say a Granary, then a Barracks in London. There's not so much forest to chop, so later rather than sooner for me. But I tend to train too few workers, so someone else should think about this point.

- Axe Blockade: I wouldn't do this because the AI will train military which is exactly what we don't want Alex to do. An ultra-early warrior choke can work, but it's too late for that. The axe should scout, pillage and withdraw; once the warrior heals, he can move along the forest tiles at Athens for a preliminery reccy.
 
- London can spam cottages post Calendar (banana plantations). My test game revealed that it's not too rich in food at this time, so farm it for now, as we want max growth possibility (and have the happy from CHM to whip a lot).

My single biggest problem in my personal AW games has been collapsing economy. Sustain a lot of military, especially outside our borders, is economy havoc. Calendar is a long way off. City #2 is planned for production. Where to we plan to get money from? This is a very critical question to answer.


I don't understand the CHM to whip a lot comment. As far as I know the anger doesn't go away sooner, so how does CHM help us?
 
My single biggest problem in my personal AW games has been collapsing economy. Sustain a lot of military, especially outside our borders, is economy havoc. Calendar is a long way off. City #2 is planned for production. Where to we plan to get money from? This is a very critical question to answer.
Athens has seafood and Gold, and London has a goldmine of course. Maintenance costs can't be ignored, but I don't think heavily cottaging London now is the answer. A banana cottage on the 'unfarmable' banana would be good, though.

I don't understand the CHM to whip a lot comment. As far as I know the anger doesn't go away sooner, so how does CHM help us?
Higher happy cap = more whipping. Letting all whip anger subside before whipping isn't very efficient, and we need to push the limits (though it is my default was of playing :blush:)
 
I've been thinking about the worker count and the economy too. I think we need another worker sooner rather than later. One of the (many!) things that helped CRC win fast in SGOTM5 was that they lay down roads quickly to expedite their assaults.

I also think we want to take Athens asap. This means troops, but each road we build on the way to Athens will basically save us about half of a turn by getting our troops there more quickly. But I wouldn't try to stifle Athens for the reasons Swiss pointed out. We don't want a stack of units piling up on the hills there.

I guess I'd suggest getting an axe out of London next. Mostly as defense for cow-horse city. Then a worker. (Though the worker could be whipped after we grow at max speed while building a barracks.)

I'd connect the two cities to maximize unit-build-choices and defense movement. Then, I'd road to Athens. As soon as practicable, we should send out a chariot or two to scout the non-Greek AIs.

I always wait too long to get the economy online. It will probably be best to get London on cottages as soon as we generate enough troops to take Athens.

Another thing that's likely to be a minor issue is barbs spawning in-between our cities. Instead of busting fog everywhere, I bet it will be more efficient to clearcut the roads and use chariots to take out barb troops who either wander onto our roads or our cottages.

Edit: Using death-or-glory reasoning, let's go for IW before Hunting, but Hunting for sure after IW. We're gambling that the AI won't send too many mounted units before we can get IW. I think this is reasonable. If disaster seems imminent, we can go full bore on Hunting (work the gold mine, etc.) and upgrade a warrior to a spear as soon as we discover it. A bit risky, but death or glory!
 
Edit: I said Horses before cows at the new city, but we'll probably want the cows first. More food that way.

Also, we're getting to the point where the AI might start sending out warrior/archer(/skirmisher from MM) parties to give us grief. Nothing an axe or two of ours can't handle, but we'd better have such either on hand or within whipping range.
 
Sorry for my apparent disappearance. I've been having some RL issues to deal with as well, but I will contribute to the discussion to the best of my ability.
 
Glad you haven't left us Kodii. Please feel free to contribute what and when you can.

I decided to put the "10 axe" estimate to the test by putting an AI city on a hill and putting a bunch of my troops nearby. I won 3 of 4 assaults, so the estimate is probably good.

What I'm more concerned about, however, is that this really put a strain on the no-cottages, place a gold mine at the capital and work it economy that I was running during the test. I think Lee's concerns about the no-cottage economy are quite valid.

I didn't even take the time to move the units, and my economy just about came to a standstill, especially when I noticed this and plopped a second city on the map. I'm not sure that Athens is such an incredible site that it's worth completely sacrificing our early expansion to get it.

Having whipped out a settler already, we're sort of on the REX path already. Perhaps we should at least consider doing more settling of our own cities before we go on a rampage against the AIs.

On a somewhat related note, when we look at the game map, doesn't it sorta look like there's a nice mountain "shield" with only a few (choke?) points for the AI to come through at us? That would be a nice gift from Gyathaar!
 
2200 BC
The city review overwhelms me. ;) ;)

I don't like it, but I go with the team and stick with iron working. However, with our weak economy it will take a very long time.


2170 BC
We drop to 90% science by putting the settler outside our borders. We really need some income.


2110 BC
York is founded at the cow and horse location. This drops our science rate to 80%.
Our worker starts to improve the cows.


2080 BC
(IT) Our warrior laughs at an attacking lion (0 damage).


1990 BC
Alex has a second city.



New Updates

I played long enough to get 1 axe to York, and to whip a second in London.

We now need to start talking about how we plan to improve the economy along with what are our mid-term goals are.
 
Nice work Lee. Both cities have an axe to protect them. I think you picked a good stopping point, with some hammer overflow in London.

I'm going to suggest that we build a worker in London soon. It would take 10T from now, but I think the optimal way to do it would be to grow first grow to size 3 (in 4T) then build the worker while working the copper mine. Just connecting the two cities will be worth +2gpt.

In the meantime, I'd probably put hammers into an axe rather than a barracks in London. If we need the troop, we'll have it ready. If we have time for a barracks first, we can do pause the axe build and get the barracks done first.

And look! You found Mansa (I think it's him, not Hannibal):


You can see I was doing a little tile calculation for domination purposes. With our 29 land tiles, we have 2.38% of the total land area. For domination, we'd need 780 land tiles. Conquest is likely to be faster, unless the starting continent here has all that land. From what we can see now, it looks like we have at least 500 tiles (very rough estimate!) unless there are some weird contours on the map.
 
The upload server is working again, so I made my save official.


http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm6/The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG006_BC1870_01.CivWarlordsSave

Spoiler :

Turn 60, 2200 BC: You have trained a Settler in London. Work has now begun on a Axeman.

Turn 62, 2140 BC: Judaism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 63, 2110 BC: York has been founded.
Turn 63, 2110 BC: Hannibal adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 64, 2080 BC: Barbarian's Lion (2.00) vs Churchill's Warrior (4.20)
Turn 64, 2080 BC: Combat Odds: 0.7%
Turn 64, 2080 BC: (Animal Combat: +30%)
Turn 64, 2080 BC: (Barbarian Combat: +5%)
Turn 64, 2080 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 64, 2080 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 64, 2080 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 64, 2080 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 64, 2080 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 64, 2080 BC: Churchill's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Lion!

 
Kodii, you mentioned some RL distractions. I'll plan to run the next turnset tomorrow unless I hear from you. So, you can play, swap or skip as RL permits.
 
I'll plan to run the next turnset tomorrow unless I hear from you.

I am getting a bit worried how little discussion has been going on.

We haven't even talked about the basic of how soon we still building cottages and how we are going to avoid economic stagnation.
The do or die philosphy is so totally foriegn to me that I don't feel I can add much. :(
 
Hmmm. Yes. I'll hold off until we can discuss this a bit.

So let's talk economy and defense. I do think we should pump out a worker quickly to connect our cities. One of the primary benefits of being the defender is that you can use your own roads to mobilize defense. But that's just if those roads exist.

Also, I think our economy will come to a standstill if we just pump out units to take Athens. We can't see all of the tiles in his cities, and with two cities, it seems fairly likely that Alex will have Copper or Iron by the time we get to him, even if we get a road all the way down there to expedite our troops.

Is this stifled economy okay? What about getting one more city ready just as IW comes in. We can use it to grab Iron, generate commerce, or build troops depending on what's needed.

City plans:
London: I think we want to avoid whipping London as much as possible. It has some pretty good tiles to work, and can have more if we get some cottages and/or hill mines going. I think it should be a hybrid based on what we need. Until we have a reasonable defense force and network, I think it should pump troops. Once we feel secure, I think it should generate mostly commerce.

York: At size 3, York can work plains cows, plains horses and a plains hill mine. This will stagnate its growth, but it will have something like 12hpt which is what it's designed for. I think it should just pump troops with no whipping.

Third city: I suggest we have this ready to go just as we discover IW. We can grab Iron if needed. At worst, we will be able to clear jungle and can plant it so that it can work a gold mine 2SE of London and pay for itself while we clear the jungle for it to become a commerce city. If we wait until we get IW, we won't need to worry about maintenance costs dragging down our research rate since IW is the last tech we'll need before our initial assault.
 
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