SGOTM 06 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

Happy new year to JT - you must have hit 2008 by now. Just over an hour and a half of 2007 left here...

Best wishes to you all for 2008 wherever you may be!

Best wishes for the New Year. Hard to believe you are already there when I just got out of bed...

Happy New Year to you MP and to the rest of the team as well! Still 10½ hours left in Denmark and I haven't had a drop of alcohol yet . That will probably change during the evening

Time to break out the Champagne? Less than 10 hours now...

There are still a couple of tiles on the west coast that it could explore - but most likely there is no way to leave our continent from the west. With the other wb continuing to explore the east coast we should know within 20-30 turns if there is way off our continent.

There is a bit of risk in this as we saw in the last SGOTM on the Greek side of our island. I see two possible ways that I think we need to check; near the cow island and all the way down south. You may be right, but I think we should make the effort to be sure that a culture bridge is not possible?

Polytheism and Priesthood can be researched in 14 turns and we also have the option of building 2 swords in Tim and then a settler using chops. Distance to ivory city site is 3-4 turns for the settler. I see two problems with this. First, I'm not sure if 3 swords will be enough to conquer Carthage even with support of the two CR2 axes and secondly I'm reluctant to divert a large worker force to chopping the Oracle (needs 5 chops = 25 worker turns) since that will slow down the development of Timbuktu and the Iron city.

After spending some time with the map, I agree with most of this. Pottery should be next for Granaries and to build Cottages. I've been thinking of city placement as well and would sure like to know whether a passage exists or if we need Astronomy? I can think of several different ways to lay out cities depending upon whether they are needed long term (Astronomy needed) or shorter term. I don't think Ivory City will support itself financially without including the two Flood Plain tiles with Cottages.

After Pottery, it depends upon our priorities. To grow cities, I think we need Sailing and Calender. To explore, we may need to head for Optics, which also requires Sailing? We will also need Masonry to get to Construction?

Queries:

Warrior bait seems to work. Has game been changed so that worker bait no longer works, even at Prince?
What should next build in York be?
Do we want to take Sparta and, if so, how about waiting – it will grow and we can concentrate on settling an ivory city and probably research; on other hand, it might make a decent GP city
When should I end my turn set?

I think it is too early to keep Sparta as it is going to drag our economy.
On ending your turn set, I cannot give you a goal as we need to discuss research objectives some more. We are currently on turn 107. If you play 13 more, that evens us out at turn 120. I would give you that as a stopping point right now. Let's see what discussion follows? Are you pressed for time to complete the set?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Best wishes for the New Year. Indeed!

There is a bit of risk in this as we saw in the last SGOTM on the Greek side of our island. I see two possible ways that I think we need to check; near the cow island and all the way down south. You may be right, but I think we should make the effort to be sure that a culture bridge is not possible? The cows will get checked by the wb, and we can use a land unit for the rest.

After spending some time with the map, I agree with most of this. Pottery should be next for Granaries and to build Cottages. I've been thinking of city placement as well and would sure like to know whether a passage exists or if we need Astronomy? I can think of several different ways to lay out cities depending upon whether they are needed long term (Astronomy needed) or shorter term. I don't think Ivory City will support itself financially without including the two Flood Plain tiles with Cottages. We will want to have WE's, so isn't it a matter of when, not if, we settle there? We will start to lose hammers put into the Tim settler fairly soon. I anticipate whipping it and sending to the ivory. Is it a reasonable possibility to capture Athens and use chops for Stonehenge in the ivory city to generate gold?

After Pottery, it depends upon our priorities. To grow cities, I think we need Sailing and Calender. To explore, we may need to head for Optics, which also requires Sailing? We will also need Masonry to get to Construction? With Pottery, Metal Working from the Oracle would speed us to Optics. Even if we get beat to it, we would gain gold for the hammers invested. I'm very uncertain about it. Like to see more discussion of risk/reward and "how to" on this.

I think it is too early to keep Sparta as it is going to drag our economy. Okay.

On ending your turn set, I cannot give you a goal as we need to discuss research objectives some more. We are currently on turn 107. If you play 13 more, that evens us out at turn 120. That's fine by me. I have through Tuesday night (about 36 hours from now) to finish my turn, as I will be away for four days thereafter.

Agree we need more discussion, but would cetainly like to play in 24 hours.

 

[leif erikson]

I think you are right that we need to get that Settler out of Tim and Ivory City is the place to go.

I have added a screenie to indicate better what I am thinking. Site 1 is where I might place the city for long term needs as it has more food and more resources. Site 2 is where I might place the city to meet the immediate need of getting Ivory hooked up and to our cities. The site marked F is a potential future site, should we choose site 1, as it includes a Rice, Banana and Horse tiles along with some hills for production.

I think I would like to hear from some of the others on future course of tech research. Also, Oracle or Stonehenge in Ivory City?

Building the Oracle and taking Metal Casting is not a bad idea and will help move us towards Optics as Metal Casting is generally a fairly expensive tech. Some Great Scientists would help as well, for Compass and Optics.

 

[rrau]

I'm thinking city site 1 and whip a monument for border expansion. If we run into happiness problems in other cities, we can build a monument for the few turns it'll take to hook up the elephants (camp and road the elephant to Right of marker2 and the tile to the SE to connect to river, which is connected to Timbuktu via road-or road to NE and connect to the Timbuktu road - both are same number of turns) . Monuments provide one happy face with England and Churchill.

[edit] Oracle if we're going to go for a wonder.

 

[ShannonCT]

I like the idea of Oracling Metal Casting. The quicker we can get to Optics, the better. With the AI having yet to build Stonehenge or found Judaism (and having only three unmolested AI left on Prince), I think we have a pretty good chance of getting the Oracle. So I guess that means I'm voting for Pottery > Polytheism > Preisthood.

Timbuktu should have no problem chopping three more swords and then whipping a settler for 2 population, after which it can enter expansion and teching mode with a granary, library, and lots of cottages/specialists.

Looks like we're set for workers for a while. Three workers around London/York should be plenty for building a few mines and chopping the remaining forests, and then improving cows and gold when Ironsite's borders pop. Two workers near Tim can finish chopping forests to get us three more swords there and then start on some cottages. Three workers near Ironsite can finish chopping the library and start building roads to connect Carthage and Athens (to speed up the conquest of Athens) like such perhaps:

Spoiler :

If we settle somewhere near the elephants, we can get five workers over there and time the chops of five forests to coincide with the completion of Preisthood to Oracle Metal Casting.

I notice unit maintenance and supply costs are getting pretty high. I hope we can find some ways to keep these costs down, like keeping Tim's new swords in our borders until all of them are ready to move toward Carthage. It would be nice if we could rely solely on a few chariots to defend our cities from barbs instead of using a lot of warrior fogbusters. We can pick up horses either from the ivory site or Carthage.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Very good play CP, I like the exploration you have done.

I think we can take Carthage with only 3 swords plus the two CR2 axes. If you put the next Tim forest chop into another sword you can put the following chop +whip2pop into our settler. We should be in a position to attack Carthage in 11-12 turns time with 3 swords and 2 axes. If we bait beforehand I think the chances are good to meet only 2 archers (as there are only 2 at the moment). Also, if we move units away from Carthage before we attack then the workboat will be sent out to make fishing boats on the fish for us for free.

For the ivory site, I like settling on top of the northern most of the elephants, but leifs site1 is also good.

We can have ivory settled between 10-15 turns from now and we can have 5 workers (the two chopping for London and the 3 around Ironsite) on 5 forest tiles chopping them on about turn 16. (Just read belwo that this is what ShannCT suggested)

We can get poly->priest in 14 turns so pottery->poly->priest will be around 20 turns.

So if we try for poly->priest = Oracle->CoL we can build Oracle around turn 123 (655BC)

If we try for pottery->poly->priest = Oracle->MetalCasting we can build the Oracle around turn 127 (595BC)

I think since we have left Oracle so long already, we should try for the more ambitious MC sling. By taking pottery first it also lets us build granaries in the meantime once our military builds are done. Because we chop 5 forests in one turn we will know if we will win the Oracle or not and no chops need to be wasted. If we miss out on the Oracle, we keep the prechopped forests for making walls and chopping into gold.

Below I have made some predictions for our research timeline to Astronomy.

For astronomy, I am predicting our best gp strategy would be to build 3 great scientists using caste system in 3 different cities. 1 for optics and 2 for astronomy giving us ~5,500 beakers from the lightbulbing. We would grow them in Carthage, Athens and Timbuktu at the same time and micromanage it so that the first pops from Carthage (this has the least food abundance) second in Athens and third in Timbuktu. Each time a GS pops, the remaining gp producing cities can hire additional scientists. I think this will be the fastest overall way to get 3 GS's.

If we do it in the above way we can get them done in approximately 40-50 turns from the time we hire scientists in each city.

If we try to do it without caste system and use libraries instead, the quickest we can do it is 75 turns from the time we hire our first scientists.

If we sling MC, we will have to self research Sailing (214),CoL(750),Masonry(162),Construction(750),Compass(851),Calendar(750),Machinery(1495) = 4972 beakers.

Currently on 100% research we get 44 beakers. Lets say we can chop forests into gold and can get the self-research done in 80 turns at an average of 62 beakers/turn over those next 80 turns.

This gives us Astronomy around turn 187 or 305AD.

This means we need CoL and our GP cities ready to go (size 5 of greater) within the next 30-40 turns. This should be easily accomplished, so it seems that self-research may well be the bottleneck (although my rate of 62 beakers per turn was plucked from thin air). We might be able to plan for 4 GS's with our biggest food city (Timbuktu) making numbers 1 and 4, our next food city (Athens) making number 3 and last city (Carthage) making number 2.

Disclaimer: because of the high level of speculation, these number could be well out of range, but at least it gives us a rough background to work to right?


Oh yeah, happy new year from the first Xteamer to see the sun!

 

[Cactus Pete]

Still wishing to learn if workers make good bait in this version and if it's possible to use the gold chop on Stonehenge. Also, no comments posted on usefullness of Sparta as a GP farm.

I think we can take Carthage with only 3 swords plus the two CR2 axes. But if we fail it would be a time consuming setback. I intend to make that decision based in part on promotions I get, or don't get, from early sword.If you put the next Tim forest chop into another sword you can put the following chop +whip2pop into our settler. We should be in a position to attack Carthage in 11-12 turns time with 3 swords and 2 axes. If we bait beforehand I think the chances are good to meet only 2 archers (as there are only 2 at the moment). Also, if we move units away from Carthage before we attack then the workboat will be sent out to make fishing boats on the fish for us for free. Will do.

For the ivory site, I like settling on top of the northern most of the elephants, but leifs site1 is also good. If wb finds another civ, then perhaps on the ivory, but I favor site 1. It has more forests within unexpanded culture and can grow faster over time. Do we chop a monument there?

We can have ivory settled between 10-15 turns from now and we can have 5 workers (the two chopping for London and the 3 around Ironsite) on 5 forest tiles chopping them on about turn 16. (Just read belwo that this is what ShannCT suggested)

We can get poly->priest in 14 turns so pottery->poly->priest will be around 20 turns. This seems to be the concensus, and I've no problem with it; except, I think I will put science at 0% for several turns after Pottery, while the wb explores more and perhaps other civs have time to complete Oracle and/or Stonehenge.

Because we chop 5 forests in one turn we will know if we will win the Oracle or not and no chops need to be wasted. If we miss out on the Oracle, we keep the prechopped forests for making walls and chopping into gold. True and good, but it still will waste some research gold.

Would like to play again in 12 hours.

 

[leif erikson]

Still wishing to learn if workers make good bait in this version and if it's possible to use the gold chop on Stonehenge. Also, no comments posted on usefulness of Sparta as a GP farm.

Are you asking us to play test the Gold Chop? I thought Fred and JT had that worked out?

In my limited time play testing, it seems that Warrior bait is more effective than Worker bait. Shannon and Fred can probably confirm that as they play tested more than I did.

I think that Sparta would serve as a good GP farm except that it doesn't have much in the way of commerce enhancements. Its distance from the Capitol will cost us in maintenance. With a Lighthouse it will provide +6 food, so three specialists. Once developed, it would be pretty good, but it will take some time to get it up to speed? There are more food resources at either Carthage or Athens and they have a better potential for commerce. In the near term, I'm not sure it is worth it?

Would like to play again in 12 hours.

Hope the New Year's are completed in time to get answers that quickly?

Sorry, I'm not much help at the moment...

EDIT - On Ivory city using Site 1, why don't we simply chop The Oracle and let that expand the cultural boundary? We need five forests and there are five within the unexpanded boundary.

 

[ShannonCT]

Still wishing to learn if workers make good bait in this version and if it's possible to use the gold chop on Stonehenge. Also, no comments posted on usefullness of Sparta as a GP farm.

It doesn't look like worker bait works consistently when the AI knows that you are waiting with units nearby. In my first practice games for this SGOTM, the AI didn't attack my workers when they saw that I had warriors ready to counterattack.

It is possible to use the gold chop with Stonehenge. Specifically, since Stonehenge costs 180 hammers, any excess hammers up to 180 will be applied to the next build and any excess above that will turn into gold. If the excess hammers that didn't get turned into gold immediately are applied to something cheap, then more excess hammers can get turned into gold on the subsequent turn. If we want to turn hammers into gold right now, we'd be better off researching Masonry and doing it with walls where we actually get some hammer bonus.

I don't like Sparta as a GP farm. Timbuktu, Athens, and Carthage are all better GP farm prospects and we only really need 4 Great Scientists. Tim or Athens is certainly capable of two GSs.

Would like to play again in 12 hours.

Sounds good.

 

[Cactus Pete]

It doesn't look like worker bait works consistently when the AI knows that you are waiting with units nearby. In my first practice games for this SGOTM, the AI didn't attack my workers when they saw that I had warriors ready to counterattack. That's consistent with my limited experience.

If we want to turn hammers into gold right now, we'd be better off researching Masonry and doing it with walls where we actually get some hammer bonus. Thanks, that's what I wanted to know.

I don't like Sparta as a GP farm. Timbuktu, Athens, and Carthage are all better GP farm prospects and we only really need 4 Great Scientists. Tim or Athens is certainly capable of two GSs. Copy that. I'm still leaning to keep Sparta when we eventually take it?QUOTE]

"EDIT - On Ivory city using Site 1, why don't we simply chop The Oracle and let that expand the cultural boundary? We need five forests and there are five within the unexpanded boundary." Of course, I knew that.

 

[leif erikson]

Sounds like you are ready CP? Can we help with anything else?

Good luck my friend!

And thanks Shannon.

Almost New Year in our part of the world. Best wishes!

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

My feeling is that we don't want to keep Sparta.

Worker bait is VANILLA only. In Warlords the best bait is a scout and second best bait is a warrior. From my experience, Warlords is programmed to not go after workers at all if there are units nearby and you are in their territory.

4 swords and 2 cr2 axes would be the safe bet for taking Carthage. My first suggestion of 3 swords could come undone if a 3rd archer appears and we have no extra sword on his way down.

 

[Cactus Pete]

My feeling is that we don't want to keep Sparta. Noted and understood, but seems a waste, especially if we can wait until it grows a little. We'll need eastern cities to construct ships. Like to hear if this is a concensus.

Worker bait is VANILLA only. In Warlords the best bait is a scout and second best bait is a warrior. From my experience, Warlords is programmed to not go after workers at all if there are units nearby and you are in their territory. That sounds right. I'll try to get a warrior to Athens.

4 swords and 2 cr2 axes would be the safe bet for taking Carthage. My first suggestion of 3 swords could come undone if a 3rd archer appears and we have no extra sword on his way down.

Yes, I'll just see how it plays.

Beginning to play now, but will be slow. I'll check back in here. It has occurred to me that starting Stonehenge in York might make sense -- worst case, we get hammers converted to gold (wouldn't chop forest until have stone). If anyone is reading, like to get some comments on this.

 

[leif erikson]

It has occurred to me that starting Stonehenge in York might make sense -- worst case, we get hammers converted to gold (wouldn't chop forest until have stone). If anyone is reading, like to get some comments on this.

Playing BOTM at the moment, so I can't look at the save. I was wondering whether we might be able to produce a Sword or another Worker there reasonably quickly. If we do not need that, then I think Stonehenge is a reasonable alternative, especially if we get gold for losing it. That would be nice.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Yes, I'll just see how it plays.

Beginning to play now, but will be slow. I'll check back in here. It has occurred to me that starting Stonehenge in York might make sense -- worst case, we get hammers converted to gold (wouldn't chop forest until have stone). If anyone is reading, like to get some comments on this.

Building Stonehenge for gold seems like a useful tactic, and could well be the best short term build since we are in this position of not knowing if we want Astro. What is the conversion rate for hammers on an unfinished wonder?

As an alternative, another sword to help with Athens might be useful. It is also a goldmine city so a library could help also (I think that it will only pay off if we need to tech to Astronomy).

 

[Frederiksberg]

If wb finds another civ, then perhaps on the ivory, but I favor site 1. It has more forests within unexpanded culture and can grow faster over time. Do we chop a monument there?

If we settle at site 1 we don't need a monument since we already have 5 forests available in the initial 3x3 square so we can chop the Oracle directly.

I would still prefer to build a granary in York rather than starting the Henge without access to stone. Granary is very useful also in the non-Astro case.

I think JT's plan for worker deployment will work. We won't need to improve the Ironsite tiles for the next 26 turns because it will be working the gold and the fish until it grows to size 3. So we can probably do with one worker building mines near London and York and two workers farming bananas and mining near Tim. The remaining five workers can then head for the Ivory city and chop the Oracle there.

God luck with the remaining turns!

 

[Cactus Pete]

If we settle at site 1 we don't need a monument since we already have 5 forests available in the initial 3x3 square so we can chop the Oracle directly. Yes

I would still prefer to build a granary in York rather than starting the Henge without access to stone. Granary is very useful also in the non-Astro case. I've started Stonehenge (two tepid agreements) and am beginning to think we'll complete it.

I think JT's plan for worker deployment will work. We won't need to improve the Ironsite tiles for the next 26 turns because it will be working the gold and the fish until it grows to size 3. So we can probably do with one worker building mines near London and York and two workers farming bananas and mining near Tim. The remaining five workers can then head for the Ivory city and chop the Oracle there. That's basically what I'm doing

God luck with the remaining turns! So far, so good.

Biggest problem is unit costs slowing research.

 

[Cactus Pete]

CACTUS PETE
SGOTM6 REPORT 895BC – 700BC

Turn set went well until lost 90+% battle on last turn, leaving Carthage defended

After Pottery, kept science at 0%, because could not build up enough gold to research through Priesthood. As a result, the decision on whether to try to build the Oracle is still pending but needs to be made almost immediately.

Here is log:

Spoiler :

895: Math is learned (choose Pottery just to continue – need to discuss Oracle again)
Archers move north out of Carthage, presumably after warrior bait
London completes sword (moves S) and begins another

880: 2 Carthaginian archers and a warrior move to hill NW of city – will try to bait them towards Tim and swords, plus back out and encourage wb to net fish
Settler is now losing 1 hammer per turn

865: 2 archers and settler exit Athens to north, will try to keep them from settling on iron but will risk Sparta (now expanded) getting a worker on horses

850: Fourth sword now out of Tim, switch to settler

835: Workboat completed in York and sent south, begin warrior to replace one sent south as bait
Judaism founded in distant land
Carthage units walking into trap

820: Pottery researched, go to Polytheism, but put science at 0%
Workboat off NE coast still finding no route further east
Library completed, begin granary in Ironsite
Start to move workers to road toward ivory city site
Athenian archers killed, gain another worker from settler for roading, plus both axes now CR1
Carthaginian units killed, now have 2CR2 (and 2 CR1) swords, plus axes to use against Carthage

805: 2 Greek warriors spotted near Carthage, hopefully training for our swords

790: Settler produced in Tim, begin granary
A little bad luck, jungle grows on one of Tim’s bananas
Still no worker in Sparta

775: Warrior completed in York, begin Stonehenge

760: Exploring SW of Athens, our axe encounters and kills first barb archer
2 Athenian warriors killed, only one sword promotion

745: 2 Greek archers move toward warrior bait, will try to lure them toward swords in route
Ivoryville established on site 1, granary begun
Now no wb, just 2 archers and 2 workers in Carthage
730: Workboat finally finds island to the east
Warrior is sacrificed to Greek archers in order to get two swords promoted

715: No western route available via the southern arctic
Workboat continues eastward without encountering a civ
Advance on Carthage
Single archer moves out of Athens (move to cut him off), leaving only 2 archers in city. Best case: he fortifies on forested hill, and we are able to take city without attacking him.

700: Attack 2 archers in Carthage with 4 swords (3 with CR2). Heavily favored, but the RNG is unkind, and we lose three. Curse my impatience and advance an axe, hoping JT will not see another archer built.
Great General in London
Ironsite expands, net the fishes
Workboat finds a hut, sign of wilderness
Greek archer heads east, chose not to attack him. Instead, advance all available units on Athens, hoping JT will be able to attack six-on-two in two turns.

Query:

We already have 6.3% of the total land area. What percentage of the total is on our home continent?

Here is save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm6/Xteam_SG006_BC0700_01.CivWarlordsSave

 

[leif erikson]

Nice turn set CP.
Tough luck with the RNG! It has always been XTeam's fortune...

Roster:
Jimmy Thunder - UP
Leif - On Deck
ShannonCT
Frederiksberg
rrau
Cactus Pete - just played! :
Gator - Enjoying Football Games and relaxing...

 

[Frederiksberg]

Good work Too bad with the RNG misfortune .

It strikes me that this is not the easiest time to plan ahead because much will depend on what happens during the next 2-3 turns. With 6 units next to Athens we can probably attack 2 archers but maybe not 3 and if no new archer appears in Carthage it will fall next turn. So either CP should play 3 more turns or JT could play them fairly soon and then post an intermediate save for discussion.

What we need to decide first is if we want to go for the Oracle because we should set research back to 100% now in the anticipation that we will get some gold soon from the capture of Carthage and/or Athens.