SGOTM 06 - Xteam

[Frederiksberg]

Will there be any delay to prechopping and chopping the remaining forests near Timbuktu if we send those workers to build the southern road?

One forests out of four is already prechopped (2 turns left). I think we need 5 turns to build the road to the river, 3 turns to move each worker back onto a forest, 4 turns of prechopping, then 1 turn to get to the last forest with both workers and 2 turns of prechopping. This is exactly the time we need to research Math.

If the warrior finds more islands along the west coast, workboat should certainly explore that direction. The eastern ocean might be completely devoid of islands, but we know the western ocean is not. One of our warriors in Tim can start exploring the east coast.

I think the exploration is going too slow and I would like to build another wb somewhere. If we build it in York then the existing wb should head to the east coast and if we build it in Carthage the existing wb should explore the west coast. I don't think speculations about islands being more or less likely to appear on either side is helpful - the bottom line is that we don't know and we need to explore both sides as fast as possible. Actually we do know that islands are very common on this type of map so it's very unlikely that either side should have no islands.

What about diverting that chop into a settler instead of a worker? There is still that big northern forest that can be chopped either for all gold or for the Oracle+gold and we'll need a settler up there.

Settling the ivory city is another option. It has 8 forests inside the fat cross.

 

[leif erikson]

I think the exploration is going too slow and I would like to build another wb somewhere. If we build it in York then the existing wb should head to the east coast and if we build it in Carthage the existing wb should explore the west coast. I don't think speculations about islands being more or less likely to appear on either side is helpful - the bottom line is that we don't know and we need to explore both sides as fast as possible. Actually we do know that islands are very common on this type of map so it's very unlikely that either side should have no islands.

I agree with this completely!
I think the northern Workboat, unless it finds a way west on those corners, should head east and a new one built in York that heads south and west. If it finds nothing, then it can be used on the Fish at Iron City.

There are two Warriors with the Axe in Tim. One could escort the Workers as needed while the other scouts to the east.

Settling the ivory city is another option. It has 8 forests inside the fat cross.

I really like this option as it not only provides for the Gold production we would like to try out (plenty of forests to chop) but also gives us War Elephants and is a central place that helps us control the continent.

On connecting Tim to our western cities, looking at the map both rivers have unexplored tiles next to them, one on the northern river and two on the southern. Don't unexplored tiles keep commerce from passing through? The other reason I thought of has been mentioned and that is that we should road the one tile further as the one we have built the road on does not say that there is fresh water there?

I also agree that Sparta is not an immediate threat. We should get a unit down there within the next turn set (Worker = about 20 to 25 turns?) to ensure that those Horses don't get hooked up. Chariots versus Axes in Warlords is a losing proposition for us and makes our Axes ineffective.

Is Construction the next tech after Math? Cats would be a welcome addition.


The other thought that is in the back of my head is that while we are seeing the civs around us as weak and vulnerable, somewhere out there are three more civs that we need to find, assess and figure out how to deal with. If they know each other, they are teching and, perhaps, trading. We do need to find them as soon as possible. I think we need to discuss, perhaps after CP's set, whether we head directly for Optics so we can send out Caravels to find them. At that point, I think we will be committed to Astronomy (which requires Calendar as well as Optics) This means that during CP's set, we should be reconning to the maximum extent possible and hoping for a culture bridge...

 

[Frederiksberg]

Is Construction the next tech after Math? Cats would be a welcome addition.

I think we can capture both Carthage and Athens without cats so I would prefer to research Pottery and maybe also Sailing first. We need Pottery to build granaries in our food rich cities (Timbuktu, Carthage and Athens) to double the hammer output from whipping. Later we also need it for cottaging when our cities grow bigger. Sailing is something we need to connect Athens and Carthage immediately when captured (provided that we have explored both the east and the west coast) and it's also a tech we need in either of the cases (Astronomy or not)

 

[leif erikson]

I think we can capture both Carthage and Athens without cats so I would prefer to research Pottery and maybe also Sailing first.

Interesting idea and good reasons.

Looking at the map, Carthage should hook itself up once it comes out of resistance as the river from our Capital reaches the sea within its boundaries. We could almost hook up Athens by using the Worker there to road towards Iron City, which would surely be done before we actually capture it? I think we would need a guard for him though.

Without having a complete picture of the lay of the land, it might be nice to have Construction in our pocket in case anyone comes to visit? Not a real good reason as the AI are so poor at amphibious landings?

Another good reason for Sailing is to build a Trireme or two to protect our Fish resource at Iron City from Barbs. Also, should we find a passage to somewhere else, Sailing will be needed. Pottery and Sailing are fine by me.

 

[ShannonCT]

Construction is only useful now if there is a land bridge. We'll probably end up researching it while we're waiting for great scientists. I don't see Sailing as a big priority right now unless there's a land bridge. Workboats are more efficient water scouts than galleys, and it wont take much effort to connect our cities with roads (we need to do it anyway). Pottery will be useful for all sorts of reasons. We couldn't go wrong there. Then, if we're anticipating a long game, we need to cultivate a GP farm (Athens?) with the GLib and NatEpic. We can throw in Masonry when we're ready to use stone.

Fine to send wb to the east coast if we build another in York now.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"I think in our test game everything was the same, it was actually the road south of Timbuktu towards Carthage that connected Timbuktu to the trade network rather than the short road east of London. (see below the road network from your test game)" Sorry, I think I missed this and gave rrau bad advice. I remember being surprised that the connection occurred from a tile that did not get a commerce from the river. I think I must have connected the other road to the river on almost, if not exactly, the same turn and not paid any attention to it. Also, thought warrior, typed settler -- senility?

Excellent discussion. Isn't Masonry required for Construction?

Busy day, but I will try to get a plan of action posted before I turn in tonight.

 

[leif erikson]

senility?

No worse than anyone else?

Excellent discussion. Isn't Masonry required for Construction?

Yes, Masonry is required for Construction.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I propose that I play until Math is researched, post a save in the thread, and continue to some agreed-upon point after discussion. Plan:

Builds:
London – barracks, sword
York – finish axe, build wkbt for one turn until size 3, and then switch to worker until verified that there is island off western peninsula (if not, continue worker; if so, complete wkbt
Tim – settler one turn, barracks, whip (with two citizens) sword and part of another to be sent immediately towards Carthage
Ironsite – library

Worker actions:
Tim workers -- “One forests out of four is already prechopped (2 turns left). I think we need 5 turns to build the road to the river, 3 turns to move each worker back onto a forest, 4 turns of prechopping, then 1 turn to get to the last forest with both workers and 2 turns of prechopping. This is exactly the time we need to research Math.” Not sure match with Math will be so perfect, but this is the proposed approach

Ironsite workers – construct gold mine and road it, then road S towards Athens until shortly before Math, in anticipation of which send them back to chop swords from forests south of London.

Athens worker -- worker (now inside city’s culture) builds north to complete road

Unit actions:
Warrior in York to end of Peninsula and back
Axe in Carthage to hill NW and outside of city once support from a Tim sword is imminent
Rest of units to defend improvements and protect workers, exploring when safe to do so

Query: Will a warrior be sufficient to discourage a Sparta horse pasture?

 

[Frederiksberg]

Tim workers -- “One forests out of four is already prechopped (2 turns left). I think we need 5 turns to build the road to the river, 3 turns to move each worker back onto a forest, 4 turns of prechopping, then 1 turn to get to the last forest with both workers and 2 turns of prechopping. This is exactly the time we need to research Math.” Not sure match with Math will be so perfect, but this is the proposed approach

No, hopefully Math will come 1-2 turns faster i.e. in 13-14 turns. It depends on how unit costs increase and how fast we get the trade route (2gpt) and the gold mine (6gpt). I still think the extra gold is worth a very slight delay in the chops.

Query: Will a warrior be sufficient to discourage a Sparta horse pasture?

Yes, the warrior posted on the hill outside Carthage was enough to keep the worker inside the city.

Ironsite workers – construct gold mine and road it, then road S towards Athens until shortly before Math, in anticipation of which send them back to chop swords from forests south of London.

When Math is in we should also consider chopping the library in the Iron city.

Remember to MM London and Timbuktu. I think it's better to work the farm and the bananas in Tim compared to the forests since food is as good as hammers (with slavery) and we get some extra gold.

I think we should continue the binary research. The 1 gpt earned is still 3% of our total income.

 

[leif erikson]

I propose that I play until Math is researched, post a save in the thread, and continue to some agreed-upon point after discussion.

Yes, this is probably a good idea. Plan looks good.

Ironsite workers – construct gold mine and road it, then road S towards Athens until shortly before Math, in anticipation of which send them back to chop swords from forests south of London.

Athens worker -- worker (now inside city’s culture) builds north to complete road

Unit actions:
Warrior in York to end of Peninsula and back

The Warrior from York, after his recon, may be needed in the south to cover the Iron Site Workers roading towards Athens. We're a bit thin for units to protect the Workers and watch the cities.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"Remember to MM London and Timbuktu. I think it's better to work the farm and the bananas in Tim compared to the forests since food is as good as hammers (with slavery) and we get some extra gold." I plan to work the forests until barracks so I can whip swords at earliest date.

"I think we should continue the binary research. The 1 gpt earned is still 3% of our total income." Will do.

"When Math is in we should also consider chopping the library in the Iron city."
Want to get swords out first to take Athens.

Plan to play in about 8 hours. Will post when I begin.

 

[rrau]

Good luck!

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

For Carthage, the warrior that has been used to protect the Timbuktu workers could move down after the road is completed to be used as bait before the first sword arives. I've found that if your sword or axe are not an immediate threat to the city (ie. three tiles from the capital), then archers (in excess of the 2-3 garrisoned in the city) will come out of Carthage to attack a warrior if he is on a tile with no defence bonus. This could be an easy way to get a promotion for the sword.

My feeling is the same as Fred's that the 3food1commerce tiles in Timbuktu are the best to be worked, but if the forests work better for the immediate future builds then I guess you should use them.

If you send a warrior to shut down any workers at Sparta you should park him just outside the city border rather than right next to the city where the AI sometimes will attack you from the safety of the city.

Good luck

 

[Frederiksberg]

Good luck CP!

Beware of the barb warrior north of Athens that rrau mentioned in the turn log. He might be a nuisance to our road crews.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Warrior bait sounds like a good idea, and I will try it (also in Athens?) if still playing when swords available.

Playing now.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

The suspense is killin' me...

 

[Cactus Pete]

Paused at Math after rather uneventful play that went pretty much as planned. Here is my log:

Spoiler :

CACTUS PETE
SGOTM6 REPORT 1210BC -


1210BC: Initiate plan

1150: Nothing on the corners, wb sets course for our northern coast

1120: Greek wb spotted north of York, heading south (suggests no northern passage)
Warrior finds nothing west of the peninsula, building worker in York

1060: Trade route to Tim completed

1030: Gold mine completed at Ironsite
A settler built in Athens

1000: Barracks completed in Tim, sword begun

985: Gibbon rates us the least advanced civilization; an unknown is rated #1, Carthage #2, and the Greeks #5 just ahead of us
Barracks completes in London, switch to sword
Whip sword in Tim
Two Greek workers venture outside of Athens without escort, move to cut them off from city and capture

970: Sword whipped in Tim moves south
Capture both Greek workers, will use one as bait once sword nears Athens

955: Worker completes in York, continue wb now for Ironsite fish

910: 2 archers and 2 warriors but no workers in Sparta, which has horses, fish, and grassland cows

895: Math is learned (choose Pottery just to continue – need to discuss Oracle again)
Archers move north out of Carthage, presumably after warrior bait
London completes sword (moves S) and begins another

Queries:

Warrior bait seems to work. Has game been changed so that worker bait no longer works, even at Prince?
What should next build in York be?
Do we want to take Sparta and, if so, how about waiting – it will grow and we can concentrate on settling an ivory city and probably research; on other hand, it might make a decent GP city
When should I end my turn set?

Here is my save (it's not posted at central control): http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/539/Sgotm_BC-0895.CivWarlordsSave

 

[Mad Professor]

Looks good to me CP

Happy new year to JT - you must have hit 2008 by now. Just over an hour and a half of 2007 left here...

Best wishes to you all for 2008 wherever you may be!

 

[Frederiksberg]

1120: Greek wb spotted north of York, heading south (suggests no northern passage)

Another likely explanation is that the Greek wb reached the cultural borders of Carthage and was forced to return since there is no open borders between Greece and Carthage. Actually I think this is the most likely explanation considering the timing: I saw the Greek wb near York in the middle of my turn set approximately 40 turns ago. If there was no northern passage it should have returned much sooner.

955: Worker completes in York, continue wb now for Ironsite fish

There are still a couple of tiles on the west coast that it could explore - but most likely there is no way to leave our continent from the west. With the other wb continuing to explore the east coast we should know within 20-30 turns if there is way off our continent.

895: Math is learned (choose Pottery just to continue – need to discuss Oracle again)

Polytheism and Priesthood can be researched in 14 turns and we also have the option of building 2 swords in Tim and then a settler using chops. Distance to ivory city site is 3-4 turns for the settler. I see two problems with this. First, I'm not sure if 3 swords will be enough to conquer Carthage even with support of the two CR2 axes and secondly I'm reluctant to divert a large worker force to chopping the Oracle (needs 5 chops = 25 worker turns) since that will slow down the development of Timbuktu and the Iron city.

Queries:

Warrior bait seems to work. Has game been changed so that worker bait no longer works, even at Prince?
What should next build in York be?
Do we want to take Sparta and, if so, how about waiting – it will grow and we can concentrate on settling an ivory city and probably research; on other hand, it might make a decent GP city
When should I end my turn set?

Perhaps a granary in York? Provided that we go for Pottery next. If we capture Sparta now we would be forced to raze since it will drain our economy. Waiting might be OK although it will create extra unhappiness in Athens.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Looks good to me CP

Happy new year to JT - you must have hit 2008 by now. Just over an hour and a half of 2007 left here...

Best wishes to you all for 2008 wherever you may be!

Happy New Year to you MP and to the rest of the team as well! Still 10½ hours left in Denmark and I haven't had a drop of alcohol yet . That will probably change during the evening