SGOTM 06 - Xteam

[rrau]

That's what I was asking. An extra worker would make a big difference. Plan to play tonight after work.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Hope everyone had nice holidays.



OK, I've read and I like getting the settler earlier out of London.

Tentative plan:

RESEARCH: Myst -> writing -> Math

York Workers: Move immediately to mine gold hill, then road towards iron city site. After that, go road to the river to connect Timbuktu.

Timbuktu workers: Road towards Hannibal until border expansion, then improve tiles in fat cross.

London: Finish Axe -> settler -> rax

York: finish WB -> warrior -> ? 2nd wb or rax?

Timbuktu: finish worker -> monument -> rax

In my test games, axes near AIs capitals caused them to go on archer building sprees. Do we want to pull the axe from Athens now (hoping they'll make a settler and send some archer escorts) or wait until closer to attacking?

Plan looks good.

Regarding the York workers I would put high priority on getting the gold mine at the iron city built ASAP even if it means delaying the road to the river.

In York we could build a 2nd warrior and use him to scout the west coast looking for possible ways off the island. I suggest we send the work boat north to explore the north and the east coast because there is no passage south of our continent and thus a lot less to explore before the wb would be forced to turn around.

I don't think we can afford to pull back our axe near Athens because that might enable the AI to start improving the copper. We could pull back a little from Carthage because we have a warrior there.

If a settler party leaves either of the cities it might be best to use the axe to block the nearby iron tiles thus preventing the city from being settled there.

Well I played the 1810BC save through to Maths following the same details as CP and I think it is the way to go. Got maths at 940BC. This might be one turn too slow cos I didn't micromanage the research slider?

If we don't use binary research i.e. science slider at either 0% or 100% we loose 1 gpt due to round off. So the best approach is to run at 100% science until the treasury is empty and then run 0% science for a while (say 4-5 turns) to fill it up and then go back to 100% science.

We can just move the sentry axe N of London to Tim and keep the new one at home, while sending the present MP warrior to the hill the sentry now occupies.

I think this is a good setup for barb defense.

Good luck rrau

 

[Cactus Pete]

Regarding the York workers I would put high priority on getting the gold mine at the iron city built ASAP even if it means delaying the road to the river. There is a trade-off here that I wrestled with. I rejected going for the mine ASAP because, without the road to the river, I wouldn't be able to get an early sword in Tim (and that sword did turn out to be really useful), so I split the workers after building the road to the junction point -- then sending one to build towards the river (accompanied by a warrior) and the other towards the iron (accompanied by an axe). My settler did arrive before the road was completed, but only just before, and then I mined the gold.

In York we could build a 2nd warrior and use him to scout the west coast looking for possible ways off the island. Until we've got Carthage captured and producing, knowledge of the west coast will not be of primary value, and by then our most wounded sword might well be healed and available for exploring (and already in the west). Another worker, on the other hand, will have all kinds of immediate uses. So I'd suggest we build that in York, unless a warrior is needed for defense. I suggest we send the work boat north to explore the north and the east coast because there is no passage south of our continent and thus a lot less to explore before the wb would be forced to turn around. COLOR="Blue"]Don't we want to make sure that there is not an island chain at the end of our western penninsula first? [/COLOR]

I don't think we can afford to pull back our axe near Athens because that might enable the AI to start improving the copper. We could pull back a little from Carthage because we have a warrior there. Agree, let's not risk a copper mine in Athens until we have swords ready to cut down archers sent out of the city. However, my experience in Carthage is that the AI sent 2 warriors and a settler north towards the hill when I pulled all units out of the orange. That is what we want to happen as soon as there is an axe in place to dispense with the warriors and gain a worker

If a settler party leaves either of the cities it might be best to use the axe to block the nearby iron tiles thus preventing the city from being settled there. Yes, but if the settler party is 2 warriors, settling anywhere would be no problem -- we can raze the city immediately with one axe. Our intent should be to position our axe so that it can kill both warriors before a settlement is founded.

If we don't use binary research i.e. science slider at either 0% or 100% we loose 1 gpt due to round off. So the best approach is to run at 100% science until the treasury is empty and then run 0% science for a while (say 4-5 turns) to fill it up and then go back to 100% science.

I think this is a good setup for barb defense.

Good luck rrau Indeed![/QUOTE]

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

How many turns is rrau playing?

You should keep the Athens axe on the forest it is on. For Carthage you should keep the warrior on the forest hill and the axe can float around the northwest of Carthage just outside the fatcross to wait for units/settlers.

Good luck and may your workers + warrior escort be safe!

 

[Cactus Pete]

She can play to Math as far as I'm concerned, but we might want a pause to discuss after Writing comes in.

How many turns is rrau playing?

You should keep the Athens axe on the forest it is on. For Carthage you should keep the warrior on the forest hill and the axe can float around the northwest of Carthage just outside the fatcross to wait for units/settlers. Try that first, but I think you may need to move the warrior to the SW for a few turns (but not enough to improve a resource) to induce the warrior/settler group to exit the city. They moved north in my game, and I think a worker (plus promoting the axe) is worth the risk.

Good luck and may your workers + warrior escort be safe!

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Remember, whip worker with one turn to go so monument completes in one turn after mysticism is in

Cactus Pete, what was the optimal build order for Timbuktu? Only one sword before barracks finishes (as soon as we connect iron)? all forest chops are after math? when does barracks complete?

The settler party moved north in my test game too even with the warrior fortified on the forested hill.

 

[leif erikson]

How many turns is rrau playing?

Haven't had time to play test much, so I am not sure of the time lines at the moment. About how long to Math? Thought we had agreed to return to the 20-turn per set routine?

Received an email from Gator. The surgery went well and he is recovering fine. Even got to take a stroll outside. He sounds in good spirits but has some rehab and recovery to attend to before he can return.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Haven't had time to play test much, so I am not sure of the time lines at the moment. About how long to Math? Thought we had agreed to return to the 20-turn per set routine?

I haven't played a sgotm before, so I'm not sure what our norm is when it comes to length of turns. Maths comes in around 30-33 turns.

I remember now that Fred mentioned we should move to 20 turns per set also.

Either way is fine with me, you can decide capt'n leif

 

[rrau]

>>>THE SAVE<<<


1810bc (0) wake fortified axe to N and start him towards Timbuktu. Start warrior from London to take his spot.
1780bc (1) London: Axe -> settler. Axe fortifies. York workers to gold tile.
1750bc (2) Axeman on way to Timbuktu ends up next to strength 3 scout of Alex's.
1720bc (3) Axe kills scout. Whip worker in Timbuktu. Alex sending settler with 2 archers by the axe. Only 59% chance of winning and would probably be killed next turn. Wait until the archers are in clear tiles not a hill or a wooded hill.
1690bc (4) Learn myst and start writing. ONly 19% chance of winning against alex's archers this turn
1660bc (5) workers finish gold hill and move to start roading. Research to 0% to rebuild treasury.
1630bc (6) Axe wins against archer (hurt pretty bad, though). Restart research at 100%.
1600bc (7) Axe promoted to strength one to continue attack - wins but is at 2.6 and captured settler but ends up in the open next to a strength 3 archer (unpromoted). I hope I don't lose both the axe and the worker.
1570bc (8) York finishes WB and starts warrior. WB heads north. Axe survived and got a cover promotion and now has 91% chance against the archer in the open....Wins. Was going to start worker north but saw barb warrior first step so retreated.
1540bc (9) Another archer next to axe, but only 75% chance of winning so no attack this turn.
1510bc (10) Axe had 90% chance against archer so killed it. Warrior woodsman from Timbuktu has scouted another border suggestive of another Greek city. Research to 0. (should have done it last turn I think)
1480bc (11) warrior id's Sparta with 1 archer and 2 warriors and no border expansion yet. He'll head back to Carthage after this. The Axe still has a promotion pending that is unused and is healing.
1450bc (12) York finished warrior and starts on an axe. (different than planned, but I want another axe to get down Athens so the experienced axe can go take out sparta). Research turned back on to 100%
1420bc (13) Not much.
1390bc (14) Start workers back to Timbuktu.
1360bc (15) Carthage dropped to pop 4.
1330bc (16) research back to 0% (I think hinduism was founded this turn)
1300bc (17) Not much.
1270bc (18) Research to 100%
1240bc (19) Not much.
1210bc (20) Ironsite founded. Unfortunately, I don't think the river road connected Timbuktu. I went back and it looks like I quit the river road one tile too soon. I'd planned to whip the rax after the chop completed and send the extra to a sword next turn, but that's not happening. The chop looks like it will complete the rax, but I didn't whip. I did go ahead and stop the other worker chopping on another forest so you don't have to do that, or it would have chopped in 2 turns. If you want to chop one more turn, you can restart him next turn. Wish I'd stopped the chop, but by the time I'd moved the settler and escort, the automatic chopping had already happened.

There's a barb warrior running around somewhere between Athens and Ironsite so I roaded a couple tiles by Athens to help our units in the future after Athens is ours.

The workboat hasn't found anything interesting yet.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

 

[leif erikson]

I hope that you have experienced, thus far, the ideas that are generated by batting things around a bit. As we get further into the game, the situation becomes a bit more complex and there is often a need for more discussion. Bringing the turn set lengths down a bit allows us to more closely examine things and, for me personally, allows me to better play within the teams concept, if you will.

That being said, I hope each of us knows that we can stop at any time during a set and ask for advice and/or assistance, should we feel the need?

 

[leif erikson]

Nice work rrau!! Didn't expect you to finish so soon!!

A second Greek city. Nice place to pick up a promotion?

Need to have a look...

Roster:
Cactus Pete - UP
Jimmy Thunder - On Deck
Leif
ShannonCT
Frederiksberg
rrau - just played!
Gator - recovering and, we hope, comfortable.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Thanks rrau, good job.

I especially like the axe near Athens that has scalped three archers and taken a greek settler

Bummer about the road network.

I suggest we take both warriors and workers at Timbuktu and finish the road down to Carthage, this will also connect Timbuktu to the iron. Definitely save the rest of the chops for after Math.

We could change production in Timbuktu to worker for one turn, then switch back to barracks for two turns while it grows to size five, then switch back to finish worker. We need to keep barracks in the build queue so there is something useful to build in Timbuktu before swords while we grow it.

The workers at ironsite can improve gold there.

Our CR2 axe by carthage could possibly be the one to sack Sparta, he can get there in 8 turns (we lose the chance to kill a settler escort by moving the CR2 axe but the warrior on the forest hill can still prevent workers coming out).

I noticed that London isn't working the gold but the freshwater lake instead(eek! hopefully it hasn't accidently been set like that for many turns?).

A tip for workboat scouting; sometimes you have to avoid taking the fast way around the corner of the island and instead use an extra movement point going to the corner tile in order to see if a pre-astronomy coast passage exists.

 

[ShannonCT]

Nice job with the Greeks rrau! I hope we can put that captured worker to good use. And it doesn't look like Sparta will be much of a problem for our promoted axemen.

I think our main focus now needs to be getting Math as quickly as possible. I'm guessing that the city governor switched from the gold mine to the lake when the settler finished. I guess we have to make sure that the governor doesn't switch to a bad tile whenever the city finishes a build or increases its population.

Where exactly are our three western workers right now?

 

[rrau]

I guess we have to make sure that the governor doesn't switch to a bad tile whenever the city finishes a build or increases its population.

I thought they only switched after city growth....

Where exactly are our three western workers right now?

2 just finished the road to Ironsite and one is down by Athens......roading a couple tiles here and there.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Reviewing the save again and comparing it to some of the tests i've played (which isn't exactly fair since I could keep replaying the tests to get everything lined up perfect) we did miss out in a few areas due to not working the right tiles (city governor presumably).

I think we might have been 50 beakers ahead, have 1 turn to go on the London barracks and already have a sword in play by 1210BC (ironsite settled in 1300BC) in the best test game

I just wanted to make a post to us all stessing the importance of micromanagement, especially in these early turns - because I know how easy it is to miss things or make mistakes {have PLENTY of experience with that }

We probably have to check every city every turn to make sure everything is optimised, and need to vote out that city governor!! (or worse )

 

[Cactus Pete]

I just wanted to make a post to us all stessing the importance of micromanagement, especially in these early turns - because I know how easy it is to miss things or make mistakes {have PLENTY of experience with that }

We probably have to check every city every turn to make sure everything is optimised, and need to vote out that city governor!! (or worse )

Yes, little things have a cummulative effect that's often large.

"I suggest we take both warriors and workers at Timbuktu and finish the road down to Carthage, this will also connect Timbuktu to the iron." How? Why?

Looking quickly at the save, would like to see discussion on these four topics:

I would send the settler in York to the end of our western penninsula (while the wkbt checks out the corners of its present island). If there is land off the coast and none off the corners, do we want to bring the wkbt back south to explore west?

A library next in Ironsite, rather than a barracks?

The road rrau built to the river connected with the river and on to Tim in the 1810 test. Why not in the game? Badly need to know this. If can make the connection by roading one more tile along river, then I would split two workers -- sending one to mine gold and other to complete road. (This delays gold mine three turns, but it saves several worker turns and gets a sword to Carthage sooner.)

Why rush to take Sparta? It may be a potentially productive city, we would raze it with a quick attack, we will have plenty of units available for such duty and probably nothing else for them to do for a while once the two capitals are captured, and its razing would probably slow down the capture of the capitals a bit -- rather try to get promotions from units exiting Carthage.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

"I suggest we take both warriors and workers at Timbuktu and finish the road down to Carthage, this will also connect Timbuktu to the iron." How? Why?
The road rrau built to t
he river connected with the river and on to Tim in the 1810 test. Why not in the game? Badly need to know this. If can make the connection by roading one more tile along river, then I would split two workers -- sending one to mine gold and other to complete road. (This delays gold mine three turns, but it saves several worker turns and gets a sword to Carthage sooner.).

I think in our test game everything was the same, it was actually the road south of Timbuktu towards Carthage that connected Timbuktu to the trade network rather than the short road east of London. (see below the road network from your test game)

Spoiler :

To connect in our actual game we can either extend the road east of London by another tile, or extend the road south of Timbuktu for another 2 tiles. I suggested Timbuktu because the worker moves are less urgent there and the road is useful for moving swords soon afterwards.

 

[Frederiksberg]

"I suggest we take both warriors and workers at Timbuktu and finish the road down to Carthage, this will also connect Timbuktu to the iron." How? Why?

I think JT is right here. We can connect to the river south of Timbuktu and use the York workers to improve the gold mine ASAP. As far as I can count it will take 5 turns to connect this way - only one turn more than connecting to the other river by extending the road from London by one tile.

I would send the settler in York to the end of our western penninsula (while the wkbt checks out the corners of its present island). If there is land off the coast and none off the corners, do we want to bring the wkbt back south to explore west?

I guess you mean send the York warrior to the peninsula? I think we should do that. Where to send the wb depends on where we plan to build our second wb. If we can take Carthage soon we could build a wb there for exploring the west coast. If not it might make sense to send our current wb to the west coast and build another wb in York to explore the east coast.

A library next in Ironsite, rather than a barracks?

We need the border expansion so either monument or library. I guess we can get the library soon enough to get some beakers for our hammers even in case 1 where a library would otherwise be wasted hammers. When Math is researched in about 15 turns we should be able to chop the two forests and get the library built.

The road rrau built to the river connected with the river and on to Tim in the 1810 test. Why not in the game? Badly need to know this. If can make the connection by roading one more tile along river, then I would split two workers -- sending one to mine gold and other to complete road. (This delays gold mine three turns, but it saves several worker turns and gets a sword to Carthage sooner.)

As JT suggests we can connect to the river south of Timbuktu and get the trade route in 5 turns using two workers without delaying the gold mine. I think we can also get the trade route by building road on the tile adjacent to the start of the river east of London and it requires 4 turns with both workers or 5 turns using one worker.

Why rush to take Sparta? It may be a potentially productive city, we would raze it with a quick attack, we will have plenty of units available for such duty and probably nothing else for them to do for a while once the two capitals are captured, and its razing would probably slow down the capture of the capitals a bit -- rather try to get promotions from units exiting Carthage.

No rush as long as we can prevent the horse tile from being pastured. That will take quite a while I think since the Greek workers are locked down inside Athens. Sparta could be a decent city with horses and fish. Considering the maintenance it might be bad to keep it.

 

[ShannonCT]

We could change production in Timbuktu to worker for one turn, then switch back to barracks for two turns while it grows to size five, then switch back to finish worker. We need to keep barracks in the build queue so there is something useful to build in Timbuktu before swords while we grow it.

What about diverting that chop into a settler instead of a worker? There is still that big northern forest that can be chopped either for all gold or for the Oracle+gold and we'll need a settler up there. Following our sword army with a settler would be a nice shot in the arm to our teching either way. My guess is that CRC completed the Oracle on turn 105, and that we have a decent window beyond that to build it, with only three AI left that aren't fighting for their lives.

I would send the settler in York to the end of our western penninsula (while the wkbt checks out the corners of its present island). If there is land off the coast and none off the corners, do we want to bring the wkbt back south to explore west?

There is a warrior in York, correct? Yes, send the warrior to explore. He's not needed for MP or barb defense.

A library next in Ironsite, rather than a barracks?

Yes, barracks wont be useful until we find the other 3 AI.

The road rrau built to the river connected with the river and on to Tim in the 1810 test. Why not in the game? Badly need to know this. If can make the connection by roading one more tile along river, then I would split two workers -- sending one to mine gold and other to complete road. (This delays gold mine three turns, but it saves several worker turns and gets a sword to Carthage sooner.)

I think roading one more tile should do the trick. In your test game, it looks like your road east of London was also one short of making a connection, and that it was the southern road that made it. So yes, let's split the workers and finish the eastern road. If the Greek worker moves north to the gold, can he shave off a turn for the gold mine?

I'd keep the eastern workers on their prechopping work so that Timbuktu's swords can come as quickly as possible. (Unless they can build the road and be back in time to prechop everything).

Why rush to take Sparta? It may be a potentially productive city, we would raze it with a quick attack, we will have plenty of units available for such duty and probably nothing else for them to do for a while once the two capitals are captured, and its razing would probably slow down the capture of the capitals a bit -- rather try to get promotions from units exiting Carthage.

We can't see much of the land around Sparta but I'm worried that keeping Sparta is going to be a financial problem. I agree that we can delay razing it, but it's not a clear-cut keeper like Carthage and Athens. It depends on what our explorers find. If we need Astronomy, Sparta may be more harm than good.

 

[ShannonCT]

I think JT is right here. We can connect to the river south of Timbuktu and use the York workers to improve the gold mine ASAP. As far as I can count it will take 5 turns to connect this way - only one turn more than connecting to the other river by extending the road from London by one tile.

Will there be any delay to prechopping and chopping the remaining forests near Timbuktu if we send those workers to build the southern road?

I guess you mean send the York warrior to the peninsula? I think we should do that. Where to send the wb depends on where we plan to build our second wb. If we can take Carthage soon we could build a wb there for exploring the west coast. If not it might make sense to send our current wb to the west coast and build another wb in York to explore the east coast.

If the warrior finds more islands along the west coast, workboat should certainly explore that direction. The eastern ocean might be completely devoid of islands, but we know the western ocean is not. One of our warriors in Tim can start exploring the east coast.