SGOTM 06 - Xteam

[Frederiksberg]

It would still be useful to have a caravel (upgraded from a trireme) on each coast to find the other AI and direct our galleons. We could probably spare one galleon to speed up circumnavigation but we also need to find all of the AI cities if we're going for conquest.

Not sure if I understand this. Why would we want slow caravels to go exploring when we have faster Galleons at about the same time? Wouldn't the caravels simply be overtaken by our galleons anyway?

 

[ShannonCT]

Not sure if I understand this. Why would we want slow caravels to go exploring when we have faster Galleons at about the same time? Wouldn't the caravels simply be overtaken by our galleons anyway?

I was thinking about the opportunity cost of using galleons to explore when galleons can be used to transport units. I think it would be a good idea to have a single galleon from the west coast shoot for a quick circumnavigation and location of the remaining AI while the caravels follow up with a more thorough exploration of enemy lands, so we can plan out the quickest way to win. If we go for domination, we'll need an accurate tile count, and if we go for conquest, we'll need to make sure we don't miss any cities.

It would be useful if we could get Machinery earlier than we are in our tests, so that we can bulb Optics earlier and get caravels exploring sooner. I know we dont want to delay Construction because we need cats in our first wave. What if we delay Calendar? Would not having the 1 additional happiness from spices cause Tim or Athens to get their GS any later?

 

[Frederiksberg]

I was thinking about the opportunity cost of using galleons to explore when galleons can be used to transport units. I think it would be a good idea to have a single galleon from the west coast shoot for a quick circumnavigation and location of the remaining AI while the caravels follow up with a more thorough exploration of enemy lands, so we can plan out the quickest way to win. If we go for domination, we'll need an accurate tile count, and if we go for conquest, we'll need to make sure we don't miss any cities.

The exploring galleons could also carry units. It would mean that our first attack might not be well planned. Still, when the caravels are done scouting they have little value whereas galleons continue to be very valuable until the end of the game. Tile count is very important since domination is most likely the fastest way to victory - we already have about 2/3 of the tiles needed on our own continent.

It would be useful if we could get Machinery earlier than we are in our tests, so that we can bulb Optics earlier and get caravels exploring sooner. I know we dont want to delay Construction because we need cats in our first wave. What if we delay Calendar? Would not having the 1 additional happiness from spices cause Tim or Athens to get their GS any later?

The GS in Athens would be delayed if spices are not availble since it means 1 less scientist. Besides we would also have lower pop in Timbuktu, London and Horse city because the bananas can't be improved with a plantation. We would also miss the gold from spices and dye tiles.

 

[leif erikson]

The exploring galleons could also carry units. It would mean that our first attack might not be well planned. Still, when the caravels are done scouting they have little value whereas galleons continue to be very valuable until the end of the game. Tile count is very important since domination is most likely the fastest way to victory - we already have about 2/3 of the tiles needed on our own continent.

This is exactly what I was thinking. If we can do it, perhaps we should try to plan for two - two Galleon teams to explore; one team to the east and one team to the west. With the six units they could each carry, we might catch a city that we can take and establish a foothold on whatever continent we find. The issue of Conquest or Domination may have to wait until we see what we're up against?

 

[leif erikson]

I think we are beginning to draw some conclusions from the testing? I would like to try to summarize the last two or three pages of discussion in our thread into a plan that we can each follow as we play through to Astronomy. It would be a bit like a master plan for the run to Astronomy, which could change if we discover something worth changing it for. If anyone has time to take a crack at it, that would be fine. Otherwise, I'll take a shot at it this evening. I would like to include city builds by city, worker actions, order of research, civics changes and timing and expected targets for Great People and where and how to grow them. Nothing too difficult...

I might be a bit early on this and perhaps more discussion is needed?

 

[ShannonCT]

This is exactly what I was thinking. If we can do it, perhaps we should try to plan for two - two Galleon teams to explore; one team to the east and one team to the west. With the six units they could each carry, we might catch a city that we can take and establish a foothold on whatever continent we find. The issue of Conquest or Domination may have to wait until we see what we're up against?

JT and CP are the masters of fast Domination and Conquest. They should have a pretty good feel for which will be better. Let's say we find a smallish continent to our west inhabited by one of the AI. It has enough tiles so that, along with almost all of the other tiles on our continent and on the larger islands off our coast, we could get domination. We have also located the other AI and could attack them with an east coast force that would later be joined by our victorious forces from the west. Or, we could just take over the one continent to the west and fill out the rest of our continent and islands with 10 settlers. What's faster, conquest or domination? I guess if we're going for domination, it's better to unleash all of our forces from one coast, but if we're going for conquest, sending forces from both coasts will be faster.

Something else I'm a little confused about concerning tile counting: in the 670BC save that JT posted, we have 6.39% of the land area and Hannibal is listed as having 1%. But by my count, we only have about 3.4 times as many tiles as Hannibal. So what gives?

 

[DJMGator13]

Update: I'm finally reaching a point in my surgerical recovery were I can sit for a few hours in the recliner chair before the neck pain starts to grow. But it seems like every few days I can increase that duration of time. This past week I started to cut back on the pain meds, as most of the pain I'm having now is my body adjusting to the fusion and the healing of the damaged nerve. Overall everything is going well. Been sleeping and staying flat on my back as much as possible.

It will take me a little time to get caught up to date, since I'll have to do this in short time-limited sessions. But it will also help in my recovery.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Good to hear your update Gator, I hope that your recovery continues well and you don't have too much pain ahead!

Good discussions team! I think we are in a position for me to play our next 15 turns. What if I write my plan in the next few days and play the remaining turns after that? CP should also be back then and can interrogate our discussion .

My gut feel on conquest vs domination is:

If we get a large number of units away in our first and second wave I have a strong instinct that conquest will be faster. We may have something like 15 cities to capture, and if we face archers we would need no more than 30-40 military units. Conquest will also be easier from a planning and logistics point of view.

Domination will still be faster if our workboat finds a significant landmass in the near future and we can concentrate on invasion and settler spam without having to go for Astronomy.

 

[leif erikson]

Good to hear your update Gator, I hope that your recovery continues well and you don't have too much pain ahead!

Keep up the good work on the recovery.
Thanks for letting us know how it is going.

Good discussions team! I think we are in a position for me to play our next 15 turns. What if I write my plan in the next few days and play the remaining turns after that? CP should also be back then and can interrogate our discussion

I think it will be best to hold off on any summary until you have finished your turns. Your time line works fine for me. I need some more time to play around with this a bit.

EDIT - I was just looking at the save and, given our need for units to kill Barbs and train for invasion, I think we could mine the grass hill east of York and irrigate the grass between York and the lake. York's build to Barracks and we can pump out two Swords every 11 turns which can train on Barbs. That would give the Cow to London to produce Settlers or Workers or allow it to grow. Perhaps a few Cottages along the river?

 

[Frederiksberg]

Good discussions team! I think we are in a position for me to play our next 15 turns. What if I write my plan in the next few days and play the remaining turns after that? CP should also be back then and can interrogate our discussion .

I agree. Can you post the most recent save you have got? It would be nice to have in order to give informed feedback on your plan .

 

[Frederiksberg]

I think we are beginning to draw some conclusions from the testing? I would like to try to summarize the last two or three pages of discussion in our thread into a plan that we can each follow as we play through to Astronomy.

I can give you a short summary of what I did:

The whip was not used at all.
The only improvements built were granary and barracks.

York and London was used to build axes/swords/cat's/WE's and settlers and workers.
Ironsite built only granary and workers.
Timbuktu built swords (very slow, Library never built).
Athens and Carthage built walls,granary and barracks and a few cats.
Ivoryville built walls, granary, barracks, workers and swords/cats/WE's.
Horse City and Gold City built walls and granary.
Sparta and Thebes built granary.

Order of gold chops: Ivoryville, Athens, Carthage, Horse City, Gold City

GS's: Tim (155), Carth (169), Tim (176), Athens (181)

War: Carthage captured T137, Sparta around T151, Thebes around T160

Tech path (from memory): Priest-CoL-Sailing-Hunting-Mono-Calendar
-Meditation-Philo-Construction-MC-Compass-Machinery-Optics-Astronomy

Civics: Caste System (ASAP after CoL), Org.Rel. (After Mono), Pacifism (After Philo).

Obviously we need to adjust this. I think the main messages are:

• Stay away from the whip
• Don't build settlers or workers in our GP farms. They must grow fast.
• Only useful buildings are granary and barracks and maybe a lighthouse in Carthage.
• Sparta must be dealt with fast.
• We can add at least 4 more cities to speed up tech pace without going broke when we stop chopping gold.
• Bulbing Philo is at least as fast as going directly for 3 GS's.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I made a small test with my 215 AD save. I removed Sparta (size 3) to see how much it would influence our economy. The result was that we would gain 7gpt by not having Sparta. Sparta was generating 7 hpt and 6fpt. Without granary this equals 13 hpt and with granary it's 19 hpt. Or, in other words, for 7 gpt we can buy 13-19 hpt + 3 forests worth 135 hammers. So the question we should ask ourselves is: Do we want to do this trade? Or do we think we can make an even better deal by settling another city near a lot of forests or by keeping a captured city far away?

 

[ShannonCT]

I can give you a short summary of what I did:

York and London was used to build axes/swords/cat's/WE's and settlers and workers.

As soon as we get Construction, I think London should be devoted to building cats and a couple medic scouts. London's Great General means its cats can take the accuracy promotion. York would be a good place to build galleys.

Ironsite built only granary and workers.

Also a potential shipyard

Athens and Carthage built walls,granary and barracks and a few cats.

I'm still wondering if we shouldn't build a library in Athens. Between it's gold mine and its scientists, it's getting 24-32 base beakers for a good 40 turns on the run up to Astronomy. A library there would give an extra 6-8 beakers per turn and help ensure that our last GS doesn't beat Machinery. There are several forests outside its fat cross that could be chopped, and it could then build galleys until Astronomy. It could whip a barracks later when we're back in slavery.

We can add at least 4 more cities to speed up tech pace without going broke when we stop chopping gold.

And I think we need to keep going and found cities next to the final 2-3 forests. We'll want money for CS and Monarchy, and for upgrading to galleons and macemen. We should be able to count on cash from war to keep us afloat.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Jimmy Thunder's plan for the next 15 turns: the most recent save 625BC is attached at the bottom.

Troops:

Plan to attack Carthage in 11 turns time with 5 swords and 2 axes. This will be enough to overcome 3 archers. It means moving all of our military to Carthage, except for the axe on the Athens peninsula. The sword by Timbuktu can stay there for 3 turns to ward off barbs before it needs to move southward to get there in time. I will move the warrior out of Ivoryville to try to bait an archer before our force arrives (Ivoryville will be safe with the western troops passing through it on their way to Carthage.)

Move the warrior east of London further into the bush to fog bust.

Our western cities should be safe with London's axe being built in 3 turns, followed after that by a sword.

Barb defence in Timbuktu:

Plan to move sword NW then attack a warrior or move SW and let warrior attack me. After that move NW and then either move to Timbuktu to defend (just in time) or move south to Carthage. Warrior besdie Timbuktu moves NE then NE to defend against barb warrior on the hill (~77% chance to win). If he loses, sword will return to Timbuktu just in time.

Cities:

London: Axe -> Sword (both for defensive purposes)
York: StoneHenge -> Warrior -> Warrior (for fugbusting and MP duties)-> Worker or Galley
Ironsite: Granary... (will work 1 fish 2 gold at size three for max commerce and slow growth)
Timbuktu: not 100% sure on what to do here, planning to put one turn into an Axe and then switch back to Library... anything worth building will take over 50 turns so it is almost a moot point, at least by building the Library slowly we don't decay the 30+ hammers in it. If we switch to a Sword.. do we really want 30 hammers into a Sword in 30 turns time?
Athens: Granary->Walls
Ivoryville: Granary->Walls for 2 turns (whip on the second turn of building walls to get full hammer amount from whip) -> Granary

Carthage (fingers crossed): Workboat -> Granary -> Barracks (it already has a lighthouse, do these always remain in captured cities or is it a %chance thing?

Workers:

Northern workers: mine + road forest grassland hill (the mine is 1 turn from finishing) -> 1 worker to irrigate grassland so York can stagnate at pop5 without cows, 1 worker to move south to mine Ironsite's 2nd gold.
Ivoryville workers: 3 workers to build road to Carthage for two turns, 2 workers to build roads on their forest squares for two turns,-> all workers to chop walls in Ivoryville 5 turns from now (the 2nd turn once Masonry is in), ->irrigate the 2nd floodplain and finish road to Carthage, -> move to Athens for prechopping.
Athens worker: finish road on gold hill and then build mine -> start roading and prechopping forests
Timbuktu workers: build road on farmed grassland, -> chop jungle on banana's, -> build farm on bananas

2 workers captured in Carthage (fingers crossed): chop one forest into workboat (overflow into granary) -> irrigate floodplain

Research:

Masonry -> Priesthood -> CoL
After Masonry we have 1 turn below 100% while we wait for Ivoryville chop, then switch back up to 100%.

I have a dilema about building Stonehenge. We can chop forest and build a mine on grassland hill this turn and have Stonehenge in 3 turns time while losing some food by working all the hammer tiles, OR we can wait until Masonry is in before we chop and get Stonehenge in 4 turns time. We keep the food from the rice tile in this case and get some nice overflow from chopping with stone connected. Question is... can we afford 1 turn delay on Stonehenge??

Also, do we want to delay the chop in Ivoryville 1 turn as I have suggested and gain an extra 50 or so gold? It means we have 1 turn with research less than 100%. I think we do want the slight delay and extra gold.

 

[ShannonCT]

Timbuktu: not 100% sure on what to do here, planning to put one turn into an Axe and then switch back to Library... anything worth building will take over 50 turns so it is almost a moot point, at least by building the Library slowly we don't decay the 30+ hammers in it. If we switch to a Sword.. do we really want 30 hammers into a Sword in 30 turns time?

There are a few forests outside the fat cross that could be chopped into whatever Tim is building. A library would be useful in a research city like Tim, but so would a sword.

Carthage (fingers crossed): Workboat -> Granary -> Barracks (it already has a lighthouse, do these always remain in captured cities or is it a %chance thing?

You'd think that not bombarding a city would help to preserve its infrastructure. (I don't know)

I have a dilema about building Stonehenge. We can chop forest and build a mine on grassland hill this turn and have Stonehenge in 3 turns time while losing some food by working all the hammer tiles, OR we can wait until Masonry is in before we chop and get Stonehenge in 4 turns time. We keep the food from the rice tile in this case and get some nice overflow from chopping with stone connected. Question is... can we afford 1 turn delay on Stonehenge??

I think we can. If we miss it, it will mean needing to chop a monument in Athens and Carthage, but we have plenty of extra forests there so that it wouldn't reduce our gold chopping.

Also, do we want to delay the chop in Ivoryville 1 turn as I have suggested and gain an extra 50 or so gold? It means we have 1 turn with research less than 100%. I think we do want the slight delay and extra gold.

If you're talking about whipping Ivoryville, I'd vote 'no'. Ivoryville has too many high yield tiles to work soon and it would be better to keep the population. And since waiting one turn to chop means setting research to 0% for an extra turn, it could delay Astronomy by one turn.

 

[Frederiksberg]

As soon as we get Construction, I think London should be devoted to building cats and a couple medic scouts. London's Great General means its cats can take the accuracy promotion. York would be a good place to build galleys.

Sounds good! We need a plan for the composition of our army and which units to prioritize. Galleys are important since we plan to upgrade ASAP when Astronomy is discovered.

Also a potential shipyard (Ironsite)

So maybe we don't need barracks there..

I'm still wondering if we shouldn't build a library in Athens. Between it's gold mine and its scientists, it's getting 24-32 base beakers for a good 40 turns on the run up to Astronomy. A library there would give an extra 6-8 beakers per turn and help ensure that our last GS doesn't beat Machinery. There are several forests outside its fat cross that could be chopped, and it could then build galleys until Astronomy. It could whip a barracks later when we're back in slavery.

In my test game Athens were running scientists for about 35 turns and with 7 bpt that would be a total of 245 beakers. At 215 AD we were doing 150 bpt which means that 245 beakers corresponds to reducing the time to CS by 1-2 turns. For the price of a Library we could have 2 extra cats or galleys. So the question is if we want to sacrifice 2 units in favor of getting CS 1-2 turns earlier. I'm leaning towards the extra units.

And I think we need to keep going and found cities next to the final 2-3 forests. We'll want money for CS and Monarchy, and for upgrading to galleons and macemen. We should be able to count on cash from war to keep us afloat.

Yes, that should work. And we could keep some of the cash from the gold chops to finance the war. If we go for domination more cities will also help towards getting the land we need.

Monarchy will become more useful as we start fighting on multiple fronts and accumulating war weariness

Does WW work the same way in an AW game? That would surprise me since there is no way to get rid of it. Maybe JT knows from his experience with the AW GOTM.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Excellent plan JT . I have a lot of comments based on my experience (and mistakes) with the test game. I hope you can use them.

Troops:

Plan to attack Carthage in 11 turns time with 5 swords and 2 axes. This will ~77% chance to win). If he loses, sword will return to Timbuktu just in time.

Have you considered building a road to Carthage? It should have an even number of tiles between river crossing to avoid loss of time:

Spoiler :

London: Axe -> Sword (both for defensive purposes)
York: StoneHenge -> Warrior -> Warrior (for fugbusting and MP duties)-> Worker or Galley

After the sword in London I think it's time for a worker. I vote for settler in York instead of worker and skip one warrior we can build him in Ironsite instead. I was in desperate need of workers in my test game because so many workers spent most of the time chopping or moving to the next chopping site.

Ironsite: Granary... (will work 1 fish 2 gold at size three for max commerce and slow growth)

In my test game I decided to let Ironsite work fish + 2 gold mines. This means that the granary never had any effect and later when I founded the Horse city it took over the cow tile. If that's the way we plan to play we should seriously consider not to put any more hammers into the granary. "Don't throw good money after bad money" as the saying goes among poker players. We could start building a warrior here instead and then start building the Settler in York a little sooner (skip one warrior there).

Timbuktu: not 100% sure on what to do here, planning to put one turn into an Axe and then switch back to Library... anything worth building will take over 50 turns so it is almost a moot point, at least by building the Library slowly we don't decay the 30+ hammers in it. If we switch to a Sword.. do we really want 30 hammers into a Sword in 30 turns time?

Put the hammers into the sword. The Library in Timbuktu will have absolutely no effect. Again we shouldn't throw good money (hammers) after bad money.

Athens: Granary->Walls
Ivoryville: Granary->Walls for 2 turns (whip on the second turn of building walls to get full hammer amount from whip) -> Granary

I have to agree with ShannonCT. Whipping is not good because our problem is not that we don't have enough gold. We can chop as much gold as we need. The real problem is that we need to convert the gold in our treasury into beakers and that can only be done by working tiles with a high yield of gold. We could e.g. cottage the northern floodplain at Ivoryville and work that at size 2.

Maybe start Walls in Athens as soon as Masonry is discovered. You can alway take them off the production queue when there is 1 turn left (and don't forget )

Carthage (fingers crossed): Workboat -> Granary -> Barracks (it already has a lighthouse, do these always remain in captured cities or is it a %chance thing?

Walls should be added here somewhere. Probably after the work boat. Don't know if the Lighthouse will always survive.

Ivoryville workers: 3 workers to build road to Carthage for two turns, 2 workers to build roads on their forest squares for two turns,-> all workers to chop walls in Ivoryville 5 turns from now (the 2nd turn once Masonry is in), ->irrigate the 2nd floodplain and finish road to Carthage, -> move to Athens for prechopping.

I see that you are on top of that road thing... Is it possible to chop in 3 turns? I suppose the hammers from the chops are not applied before turn 4 so it should be possible to build walls with them. I would suggest that we test this to find out or maybe some of you know exactly how the mechanics are? Getting the chop 2 turns sooner means keeping science at 100% 2 turns longer and maybe we save a turn towards CoL and maybe in the end get our GS's one turn sooner. We need to push the envelope wherever we can.

2 workers captured in Carthage (fingers crossed): chop one forest into workboat (overflow into granary) -> irrigate floodplain

Sounds good. Keep in mind that we need 7 workers around Athens before we run out of gold (and all forests pre-chopped).

Research:

Masonry -> Priesthood -> CoL
After Masonry we have 1 turn below 100% while we wait for Ivoryville chop, then switch back up to 100%.

I'm afraid it will be at least two turns unless we speed up the chop.

I have a dilema about building Stonehenge. We can chop forest and build a mine on grassland hill this turn and have Stonehenge in 3 turns time while losing some food by working all the hammer tiles, OR we can wait until Masonry is in before we chop and get Stonehenge in 4 turns time. We keep the food from the rice tile in this case and get some nice overflow from chopping with stone connected. Question is... can we afford 1 turn delay on Stonehenge??

I think we should risk it and I would suggest that we MM York to work the lake instead of the plains hill until it has grown to size 5. That way we put less hammers with no stone multiplier into Stonehenge and we get a little extra gold to ensure that we can get Masonry in 3 turns (It's a close call right now.) It also means that York is at size 5 before it starts building the settler I suggested.

Also, do we want to delay the chop in Ivoryville 1 turn as I have suggested and gain an extra 50 or so gold? It means we have 1 turn with research less than 100%. I think we do want the slight delay and extra gold.

No. Gold is not important, beakers are.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Thanks for comments so far team, some good insight. I'll make the adjustments once all opinions/discussions are in.

Quick comment: the forests around Ivoryville are all prechopped 2 turns already so we can chop on the turn that Masonry is in for the minimum delay in 100% research time.

I think I recall that war weariness is lessened in Always War games, and from experience it only starts stricking hard after 1300AD or so... it would be good to know the definitive answer on this, I'm sure it's on the forums somewhere.

There we go...found something:
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/war_weariness.php
Always war reduces the normal war weariness by 50%.

 

[ShannonCT]

In my test game I decided to let Ironsite work fish + 2 gold mines. This means that the granary never had any effect and later when I founded the Horse city it took over the cow tile. If that's the way we plan to play we should seriously consider not to put any more hammers into the granary. "Don't throw good money after bad money" as the saying goes among poker players. We could start building a warrior here instead and then start building the Settler in York a little sooner (skip one warrior there).

If we use the forest south of Ironsite to chop the granary by turn 134, it'll get 18 food when it goes from Pop2 to Pop3 7 turns later (turn 141). It will then be 21 food away from Pop4, which takes 21 turns of slow growth or 6 turns of fast growth (working cows instead of gold for 5 turns, so 35 beakers lost). If we're planning to build Horse City on top of the bananas, then I agree that the granary is useless. But if we build Horse City further east, Ironsite will be a pretty strong production city. It would be at Pop4 at turn 148, with 8 hammers per turn; Pop5 at turn 163, with 11 hammers per turn; and Pop6 at turn 187, with 14 hammers per turn (all revolts factored in). A good production city on the coast might be more useful than a decent one inland. We could build Horse City either 1E of the bananas (for maximum forests) or on the northern ivory (fewer forests, better growth and production) instead of on the bananas.

 

[Frederiksberg]

If we use the forest south of Ironsite to chop the granary by turn 134, it'll get 18 food when it goes from Pop2 to Pop3 7 turns later (turn 141). It will then be 21 food away from Pop4, which takes 21 turns of slow growth or 6 turns of fast growth (working cows instead of gold for 5 turns, so 35 beakers lost). If we're planning to build Horse City on top of the bananas, then I agree that the granary is useless. But if we build Horse City further east, Ironsite will be a pretty strong production city. It would be at Pop4 at turn 148, with 8 hammers per turn; Pop5 at turn 163, with 11 hammers per turn; and Pop6 at turn 187, with 14 hammers per turn (all revolts factored in). A good production city on the coast might be more useful than a decent one inland. We could build Horse City either 1E of the bananas (for maximum forests) or on the northern ivory (fewer forests, better growth and production) instead of on the bananas.

Yes, thats a good option. Do we have time to chop the forest before improving the gold? And how are the mechanics governing when the granary is filled? I seem to recall that if the food bar is less than half filled when the granary is built then the granary will fill up immediately, otherwise it will not fill up until the city has grown 1 pop.