SGOTM 06 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

Yes, thats a good option.

I agree. Can we let it grow slowly in the run up to Astronomy (maximize commerce and beakers) and, once there, work the food tiles (maximize growth) to grow quickly and then be ready to for production and commerce? (good ship building city!)

I like the site one tile east of the Bananas for Horse City. It gives us two things we need, production and commerce, as we can cottage the tiles along the river for more Gold to support our armies in the field.

 

[ShannonCT]

Yes, thats a good option. Do we have time to chop the forest before improving the gold? And how are the mechanics governing when the granary is filled? I seem to recall that if the food bar is less than half filled when the granary is built then the granary will fill up immediately, otherwise it will not fill up until the city has grown 1 pop.

That might be true in the original game, but in the version we're playing, if you finish the granary after the food box is more than halfway filled, you still get some food storage. So if we get the granary on turn 135, we will get the full 18 food stored when it hits Pop3. If we get it on turn 136, we will get 15 food stored, etc.

It looks like if we're going to be spending 8 worker-turns building a farm next to York, we will need an extra worker or two from Ivoryville to come help with the chopping/mining/pasturing near Ironsite, instead of going directly to Athens for chopping. But we have to wait for Athens's borders to expand before completing chops there, so I don't see the diversion as a problem.

 

[ShannonCT]

I agree. Can we let it grow slowly in the run up to Astronomy (maximize commerce and beakers) and, once there, work the food tiles (maximize growth) to grow quickly and then be ready to for production and commerce? (good ship building city!)

If we're going slow growth at Ironsite pre-Astronomy, then the granary isn't nearly as valuable. If we want fast growth after Astronomy, the granary can wait. If we decide to finish the granary soon, I think we should give up the 35 beakers and work the pastured cow for 5 turns, really commiting to making Ironsite a good hammer city.

We could do this in combination with chopping a library in Athens with the extra forests outside its fat cross, after walls and granary are done. The 35 beakers we lose at Ironsite would be made up for by 200+ extra beakers from Athens. And the units we lose from building the library in Athens would be made up for by the extra units we can produce in Ironsite. Specialization FTW!

I like the site one tile east of the Bananas for Horse City. It gives us two things we need, production and commerce, as we can cottage the tiles along the river for more Gold to support our armies in the field.

If we have Calendar by the time we build Horse City, this site would be more attractive because the bananas would give faster growth and we wouldn't waste worker turns building a farm on the bananas only later to build a plantation there. We could build the plantation right away.

 

[leif erikson]

We could do this in combination with chopping a library in Athens with the extra forests outside its fat cross, after walls and granary are done. The 35 beakers we lose at Ironsite would be made up for by 200+ extra beakers from Athens. And the units we lose from building the library in Athens would be made up for by the extra units we can produce in Ironsite. Specialization FTW!

This sounds like a reasonable way to go.

If we have Calendar by the time we build Horse City, this site would be more attractive because the bananas would give faster growth and we wouldn't waste worker turns building a farm on the bananas only later to build a plantation there. We could build the plantation right away.

Not sure where Calender fits into the schedule. I know that during the chopping gold phase, Workers will be as precious as Gold. Once we have moved ahead, seems like we may have a some worker turns available if we need them?

 

[Frederiksberg]

If we're going slow growth at Ironsite pre-Astronomy, then the granary isn't nearly as valuable. If we want fast growth after Astronomy, the granary can wait. If we decide to finish the granary soon, I think we should give up the 35 beakers and work the pastured cow for 5 turns, really commiting to making Ironsite a good hammer city.

The important consideration here is that CoL must not be delayed because this delay will directly be reflected in a delay of Astronomy. So 35 beakers lost here could actually have a greater effect than 200 beakers gained later.

We could do this in combination with chopping a library in Athens with the extra forests outside its fat cross, after walls and granary are done. The 35 beakers we lose at Ironsite would be made up for by 200+ extra beakers from Athens. And the units we lose from building the library in Athens would be made up for by the extra units we can produce in Ironsite. Specialization FTW!

MM'ing Ironsite differently has no logical connection to what we should do in Athens. If we can get a few extra unit in Ironsite without delaying CoL and thus Astronomy then we should do that. I would still prefer to also get 2 additional units in Athens instead of 245 beakers that correspond to getting CS 1-2 turns earlier (Note, that the Astro date does not change!). Bottom line for me is that we should have as big an army as possible as long as we can do this without delaying the Astro date and I put less weight on the slight delay of CS.

 

[ShannonCT]

The important consideration here is that CoL must not be delayed because this delay will directly be reflected in a delay of Astronomy. So 35 beakers lost here could actually have a greater effect than 200 beakers gained later.

Pop3 in Ironsite should be coming right around the time of CoL, so we can switch to working the cows as soon as we know that doing so wont slow down CoL.

MM'ing Ironsite differently has no logical connection to what we should do in Athens. If we can get a few extra unit in Ironsite without delaying CoL and thus Astronomy then we should do that. I would still prefer to also get 2 additional units in Athens instead of 245 beakers that correspond to getting CS 1-2 turns earlier (Note, that the Astro date does not change!). Bottom line for me is that we should have as big an army as possible as long as we can do this without delaying the Astro date and I put less weight on the slight delay of CS.

The Astro date wouldn't change, but the Machinery date could be moved up a turn or two, and that might allow us to save enough gold to upgrade an extra galley or two.

We have four competing goals:
1) Get the last GS earlier
2) Get Machinery earlier
3) Build more units
4) Have more gold for upgrading units (especially galleys)

If we can make changes in two cities that allows us to do one or more of these things better without doing any of the others worse, then those changes would be efficient. In that way, the decision for one city affects the decision for another.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Pop3 in Ironsite should be coming right around the time of CoL, so we can switch to working the cows as soon as we know that doing so wont slow down CoL.

That's nice. So it will be up to JT to ensure that MM'ing Ironsite doesn't delay CoL and find the right time to switch to working the cow tile.

The Astro date wouldn't change, but the Machinery date could be moved up a turn or two, and that might allow us to save enough gold to upgrade an extra galley or two.

We have four competing goals:
1) Get the last GS earlier
2) Get Machinery earlier
3) Build more units
4) Have more gold for upgrading units (especially galleys)

If we can make changes in two cities that allows us to do one or more of these things better without doing any of the others worse, then those changes would be efficient. In that way, the decision for one city affects the decision for another.

As I understand it getting to machinery earlier is in order to save some gold so 2) and 4) are essentially the same. If we need more gold I think that chopping a settler instead of a library is better because that will allow us to settle near a lot of forests and chop a huge amount of gold for upgrades. Two turns saved on machinery is not more than 2 forests chopped into gold.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

That might be true in the original game, but in the version we're playing, if you finish the granary after the food box is more than halfway filled, you still get some food storage. So if we get the granary on turn 135, we will get the full 18 food stored when it hits Pop3. If we get it on turn 136, we will get 15 food stored, etc.

This granary micromanagement is new to me...

I thought all a granary does was simply make your food bar already filled to halfway each time you grow a pop?

Is what you are describing above mean that there is a cumulative effect that stores half of the food you get each turn and saves it for the next pop growth point, rather than giving you a simple flat-rate of half a filled food bar?

BTW, I'm itching to play

 

[ShannonCT]

I thought all a granary does was simply make your food bar already filled to halfway each time you grow a pop?

Is what you are describing above mean that there is a cumulative effect that stores half of the food you get each turn and saves it for the next pop growth point, rather than giving you a simple flat-rate of half a filled food bar?

With the granary in place, each surplus food not only increases the food in the visible food box, but also adds an unseen food to granary storage, up to a maximum of half the food required for the next population level. So if you're at Pop2, needing a total of 36 food to get to Pop3, the granary can store up to 18 food. But the granary needs to be in place when you're at 18/36 food or less to get the full effect. If you get a granary when you're at 24/36 food, the granary will only store 12 food because that's all you need to earn to go to Pop3.

BTW, I'm itching to play

What's left to be decided for the next 15 turns?

 

[leif erikson]

BTW, I'm itching to play

If you are comfortable with the feedback you have received from your plan and feel you are ready to complete the turn set, then please go ahead and do so.

If you wish to wait for any input from CP, then holding until then is fine as well. CP will have a fair amount of reading to do once he returns from his trip...

 

[Cactus Pete]

CP has returned and finished his reading assignment, though he's not sure how much he will retain.

Without playing a test to Astronomy, I have little confidence that I could add much of real significance to our planning (and probably not very much even if I did). I see no unnoticed problems -- just hope some critical point of analysis I've just read doesn't get lost in time and the complexity of play as we go forward.

Minor points: Build swords, not axes, for barb defense and eventual upgrading. Better to build chariots than scouts for use as medics (and axe killers) and perhaps as barb defense. A bit skeptical that razing Sparta is optimal, whether we build another city on east coast or not, as it will be reasonably productive with Slavery. One potential problem with Conquest on this kind of map is the higher probability of encountering a single-tile island city on a hill defended by 2 promoted longbows.

My experience is that on Prince most lighthouses survive capture.

Question: In your tests, did the barbs ever produce axes?

I'm ready to unleash JT.

 

[rrau]

Question: In your tests, did the barbs ever produce axes?

I'm ready to unleash JT.

Yes, towards the end of the test, but I only saw 2 or 3 of them. I did have to whip some axes to deal with them.

 

[DJMGator13]

CP has returned and finished his reading assignment,

I'm close to finishing my assignment, up to post #380. So hopefully I should be up to date in the next day or two.

Sounds like good progress. I see the Xteam RNG luck has continued. Leif forgot to mention that in one of the Civ III SGOTM another AW game we did not generate a Great Leader until the very last turnset of the game.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Good luck JT

 

[Frederiksberg]

A bit skeptical that razing Sparta is optimal, whether we build another city on east coast or not, as it will be reasonably productive with Slavery.

I'm also inclined to keep it after calculating the hammers versus cost (13-19 hpt for the cost of 7 gpt).

Question: In your tests, did the barbs ever produce axes.

In my test barb swords appeared towards the end but no axes. It may not be representative because all other civs were killed and that would probably have increased barb research.

 

[leif erikson]

CP has returned and finished his reading assignment, though he's not sure how much he will retain.

Welcome back CP!
Hope you had a good trip.

Question: In your tests, did the barbs ever produce axes?

This is a good point. When Shannon removed the other Civs to better simulate our teching, that also removed Barb research, more or less. So in our builds, we should have some Chariots.

I'm ready to unleash JT.

Good luck JT!

EDIT - Hi Capt! I see you lurking...

 

[Capt Buttkick]

Wow, nice

And here I was thinking I had managed to blend into shadows

Belated

 

[leif erikson]

Wow, nice

And here I was thinking I had managed to blend into shadows

Belated

Never happen with these sharp old eyes...


to you as well.

Hope you're keeping nice and warm up there in the Capt's Cabin...

 

[Frederiksberg]

One last remark. The only thing that could give us Astronomy earlier than in the test games is probably chopping granaries in Athens and Carthage using forests outside the fat crosses. I didn't do it in my test game and I'm wondering if we could pick up a couple of turns doing this.

 

[leif erikson]

I'm also inclined to keep it after calculating the hammers versus cost (13-19 hpt for the cost of 7 gpt).

How long do we wait after the fall of Carthage to take it? Once we have CoL's?