SGOTM 06 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

It strikes me that this is not the easiest time to plan ahead because much will depend on what happens during the next 2-3 turns. With 6 units next to Athens we can probably attack 2 archers but maybe not 3 and if no new archer appears in Carthage it will fall next turn. So either CP should play 3 more turns or JT could play them fairly soon and then post an intermediate save for discussion.

There are currently two Archers in Athens, although it will require at least three turns before we can attack them there in order to avoid the river penalty.

Barring RNG difficulties, Carthage should be ours next turn?

What we need to decide first is if we want to go for the Oracle because we should set research back to 100% now in the anticipation that we will get some gold soon from the capture of Carthage and/or Athens.

Research can be set to 100% as CP saved enough Gold to get Poly in 4-turns. Poly costs 214 beakers and at 100%, we complete it in 4-turns with 28 left over. If we get 99 Gold for capturing Carthage, then we can have Priesthood in 3-turns. Without a city capture, we would need 6-turns to raise the necessary Gold to complete it.

What does the team think about having JT (for that matter, what do you think JT?) play through 4 or 5 turns until the capture of Athens?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Good work Too bad with the RNG misfortune .

It strikes me that this is not the easiest time to plan ahead because much will depend on what happens during the next 2-3 turns. With 6 units next to Athens we can probably attack 2 archers but maybe not 3 and if no new archer appears in Carthage it will fall next turn. So either CP should play 3 more turns or JT could play them fairly soon and then post an intermediate save for discussion. Probably just two more turns, and I'd be happy to play them, if I can ge the go-ahead within 6 hours.

What we need to decide first is if we want to go for the Oracle because we should set research back to 100% now in the anticipation that we will get some gold soon from the capture of Carthage and/or Athens. Yes, I probably could have already begun Poly, but I kept thinking that the wb might contact another civ. If we go for the Oracle, we will know more about the map before it is built. There are many islands to the east, which begs the questions: What's the best Oracle tech or is the Oracle worth it, if we get info that suggests Astronomy may not be needed?

Before we could Oracle Construction, Masonry would probably require an extra 5 turns.

 

[leif erikson]

Before we could Oracle Construction, Masonry would probably require an extra 5 turns.

I thought we had discussed Metal Casting? Or, perhaps, Code of Laws?

 

[rrau]

If research is becoming a problem due to economy, maybe CoL? I thought it was going to be Metal casting to get us on the path to Astronomy, but if our research is that weak, we may have to rethink what we take with the oracle.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I thought we had discussed Metal Casting? Or, perhaps, Code of Laws?

Metal Casting would seem somewhat superfluous if we don't need Astronomy. If we get Stonehenge and don't need Astronomy, then the same might be said for Code of Laws.

 

[leif erikson]

Metal Casting would seem somewhat superfluous if we don't need Astronomy. If we get Stonehenge and don't need Astronomy, then the same might be said for Code of Laws.

Yes, you make a good point. I was a bit surprised by the length of our continent to the east. Perhaps there is a passage there? Will we know before we get to the point of decision on what tech to take? If we do not know for sure, should we assume that we need Astronomy?

This is a bit like the question of which came first, the chicken or the egg????

 

[ShannonCT]

Agreed that JT should play 3-4 turns until we know the fate of Carthage and Athens. The archer outside of Athens needs to be prevented from returning even if that means leaving one of our units across the river from Athens. We have enough units to defeat two defenders but maybe not 3. In 3 turns we will have a good idea where to direct the final two swords and the Great General. We can hold off on Sparta and capture or raze it later.

I think it's time to beeline for the Oracle and Metal Casting. Our wb hasn't found a passage yet and neither have the other AI apparently. It's becomming increasingly likely that we need Astronomy. And there's not a lot of downside to getting MC even if we don't need Astro. We can't keep postponing the Oracle. And we still have 7 more turns to make contact with the remaining AI and change our mind about Metal Casting.

After Polytheism and Preisthood, I suggest Masonry so that we can start turning wood into gold (assuming the capture of Athens's stone).

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Excellent turns CP, a shame about the attack rolls on Carthage, won a 98% and lost on 66%, 66% and 96%

I plan to play the next 3 turns tomorrow morning (12hours from now). We need to get a lucky break.

If either Carthage or Athens makes another archer I will wait for reinforcements. If not, axe+sword will attack Carthage next turn and Athens will be on turn 2, with 3 attacking accross the river (6vs2... we will win ).

I counted tiles and we have 534 that are visible (I have included about 15 blanked tiles in this to account for the islands and peninsula's we have only half uncovered. We need 781 for domination, which means our visible land is about 2/3 of what we need in total. In the next 7 turns there is very little that could assure us that Astronomy is not needed.

I think our hand is forced and we have to set ourselves up for a fast Astronomy, because we miss out on too much by delaying the Astronomy path any longer. If we end up only needing galleys we are still in a strong position and will have only wasted 5 forests and 2 techs worth of gold... not too bad imho.

We should go for Oracle now that we have got those 5 forests in Ivoryville ready to go. MC is the most helpful for the Astronomy route based on its beaker value.

If we take both Carthage and Athens in the next 2-3 turns then we should have enough gold to research 100% for poly (4turns),priest(3turns) and even masonry(3 turns) meaning we could delay Oracle by 3 turns and possibly take construction. I still think MC is the best choice, because the 5 forests and 2 techs will not slow us done very much if Astronomy is not needed.

I would choose to settle Great General as military instructor in London.

Ivoryville is not so safe from barbs right now, hope we don't get any archers appearing...

Is grassland hill the next tile to improve in Timbuktu?

And do we put Ironsite onto fish only once the Oracle is done?

 

[Frederiksberg]

I think our hand is forced and we have to set ourselves up for a fast Astronomy, because we miss out on too much by delaying the Astronomy path any longer. If we end up only needing galleys we are still in a strong position and will have only wasted 5 forests and 2 techs worth of gold... not too bad imho.

We should go for Oracle now that we have got those 5 forests in Ivoryville ready to go. MC is the most helpful for the Astronomy route based on its beaker value.

I think this is most likely correct. We can't wait too long shooting for Astronomy. On the other hand I wouid like to know how the next 2 turns play out because an alternative would be to chop 4 swords with the forests in Ivory city and give them promotions with the GG.

I would choose to settle Great General as military instructor in London.

Again I would wait 2 turns before deciding what to do with the GG.

Is grassland hill the next tile to improve in Timbuktu?

Yes, mine the hill and farm the bananas. I think farming bananas is a slightly better choice since food grows in value with the granary in place.

And do we put Ironsite onto fish only once the Oracle is done?

We should do this as soon as it can be done without delaying Priesthood.

 

[Mad Professor]

Metal Casting would seem somewhat superfluous if we don't need Astronomy. If we get Stonehenge and don't need Astronomy, then the same might be said for Code of Laws.

The implication being that you think we can win with swords and cats...? If the answer to this is yes, then your statement holds. If any more advanced military strength is required then metal casting is by no means superfluous. You would know better than me whether any stronger than swords is required.

Edit: Depends on what Gyathaar was thinking and there we enter a realm where few have successfully gone before. Requiring astronomy in an all war game would be a much tougher game. I think we're in a good position if astronomy is required.

 

[leif erikson]

I plan to play the next 3 turns tomorrow morning (12hours from now). We need to get a lucky break.

OK, thanks JT. That would be great!

In the next 7 turns there is very little that could assure us that Astronomy is not needed.

I think our hand is forced and we have to set ourselves up for a fast Astronomy, because we miss out on too much by delaying the Astronomy path any longer.

I agree with this. Oracle and Metal Casting appear to be the safe bet at this point.

If we take both Carthage and Athens in the next 2-3 turns then we should have enough gold to research 100% for poly (4turns),priest(3turns) and even masonry(3 turns) meaning we could delay Oracle by 3 turns and possibly take construction.

Once we have Carthage, a quick Work Boat to scout to the east would be nice, even if we have to whip one.

I would choose to settle Great General as military instructor in London.

Yes, unless we have continued poor RNG and then we need to relook Fred's idea.
That would tank Oracle however...
So, let's all head to the altar and give our sacrifices to the RNG before JT plays...

Is grassland hill the next tile to improve in Timbuktu?

There is a farmed grass that can be worked while you chop the jungle and farm the Banana.

And do we put Ironsite onto fish only once the Oracle is done?

I think as soon as we get Priesthood, we can work the Fish. Growth to size two will require 6 turns.

Good Luck!!
We need a sacrifice smilie at the RNG Altar...

 

[ShannonCT]

I would choose to settle Great General as military instructor in London.

Sounds good, unless either of Carthage or Athens doesn't fall in the next 2 turns and the GG could be used for some crucial promotions.

Is grassland hill the next tile to improve in Timbuktu?

I'm wondering what exactly the plan is for Tim. Are we going for pure specialist economy, cottages, or hybrid? If we're looking for 1 GS there, then we could cottage everything including the 2 bananas and still have food to run 2-3 scientists. Or if we're going for 2 GSs there, we should probably farm the bananas so we can run 4-5 scientists. I'm not sure how to calculate the optimal strategy regarding how many total GSs to plan for (3 or 4?), where and when to get each GS, whether or not to bother going for Literature, etc. After we find out what happens with Athens and Carthage, I think we need to discuss our long-term plans for getting to Astronomy.

And do we put Ironsite onto fish only once the Oracle is done?

Agreed with leif. Switch to fish when you know it won't slow down Preisthood.

 

[leif erikson]

I'm wondering what exactly the plan is for Tim. Are we going for pure specialist economy, cottages, or hybrid? If we're looking for 1 GS there, then we could cottage everything including the 2 bananas and still have food to run 2-3 scientists. Or if we're going for 2 GSs there, we should probably farm the bananas so we can run 4-5 scientists. I'm not sure how to calculate the optimal strategy regarding how many total GSs to plan for (3 or 4?), where and when to get each GS, whether or not to bother going for Literature, etc. After we find out what happens with Athens and Carthage, I think we need to discuss our long-term plans for getting to Astronomy.

I think the basic outline is below from JT's post earlier. I cut some of it out...

Below I have made some predictions for our research timeline to Astronomy.

For astronomy, I am predicting our best gp strategy would be to build 3 great scientists using caste system in 3 different cities. 1 for optics and 2 for astronomy giving us ~5,500 beakers from the lightbulbing. We would grow them in Carthage, Athens and Timbuktu at the same time and micromanage it so that the first pops from Carthage (this has the least food abundance) second in Athens and third in Timbuktu. Each time a GS pops, the remaining gp producing cities can hire additional scientists. I think this will be the fastest overall way to get 3 GS's.

If we do it in the above way we can get them done in approximately 40-50 turns from the time we hire scientists in each city.

If we try to do it without caste system and use libraries instead, the quickest we can do it is 75 turns from the time we hire our first scientists.

This means we need CoL and our GP cities ready to go (size 5 of greater) within the next 30-40 turns.

Disclaimer: because of the high level of speculation, these number could be well out of range, but at least it gives us a rough background to work to right?

Following this, once we get Priesthood, we should start researching CoL's while we chop the Oracle to get Metal Casting. Then it looks like Sailing, Masonry and Construction while the Great Scientists are brewing?

I agree that we need to work out timelines. It will be interesting to see what the acquisition of Carthage and Athens does to us financially.

EDIT - If we can get 4 Great Scientists, one could also research Compass for us? We would need to figure out whther it would be faster to get a fourth GS or research it ourselves?

 

[Cactus Pete]

"I counted tiles and we have 534 that are visible (I have included about 15 blanked tiles in this to account for the islands and peninsula's we have only half uncovered. We need 781 for domination, which means our visible land is about 2/3 of what we need in total. In the next 7 turns there is very little that could assure us that Astronomy is not needed."

If we encounter another civ within the next 7 turns, that would make it likely that enough tiles are reachable to not need Astronomy. If we do make contact, we could try to research Masonry before Oracle and get Construction.

MP, I do think we could win a non-Astronomy game with just cats and WE's.

Otherwise, planning sounds good to me.

 

[ShannonCT]

EDIT - If we can get 4 Great Scientists, one could also research Compass for us? We would need to figure out whther it would be faster to get a fourth GS or research it ourselves?

So we have,

JT's Plan A: get 3 GSs and self-research Compass. Order of GSs are Carthage, Athens, Timbuktu. In this case, Tim doesn't need many farms and should be developing cottages so that our self-research does not become a bottleneck. Cottaging over all of the remaining river tiles in Tim still leaves it with a food surplus of 8.

JT's Plan B: get 4 GSs and don't self-research Compass. Order of GSs are Tim, Carthage, Athens, Tim. Tim will need to get 67% more GP points in this case and will need more food. Farming the bananas allows one additional scientist (5 scientists total if working rice, 2 bananas, and 1 farmed grassland).

Other plans involving building the Great Library and National epic in Carthage or Athens might also give a good result.

My instinct is that with no beaker or GP bonuses to our specialists it's better to go for Plan A and work on developing some cottages in cities so that self-research doesn't become a bottleneck and so that we have more flexibility with other situations that might arise.

After we capture Athens and Carthage (fingers crossed), I can playtest these different options and see what dates I get for Astronomy.

 

[leif erikson]

If we encounter another civ within the next 7 turns, that would make it likely that enough tiles are reachable to not need Astronomy. If we do make contact, we could try to research Masonry before Oracle and get Construction.

Yes, I agree. It will be nice to scout the land east of Carthage to see where it leads. The Warrior north of Carthage, where is he going? Can he be sent to the east to scout for 7 turns?

So we have,

JT's Plan A: get 3 GSs and self-research Compass. Order of GSs are Carthage, Athens, Timbuktu. In this case, Tim doesn't need many farms and should be developing cottages so that our self-research does not become a bottleneck. Cottaging over all of the remaining river tiles in Tim still leaves it with a food surplus of 8.

This involves building a Library in each city we need Scientists to get a Great Scientist.

JT's Plan B: get 4 GSs and don't self-research Compass. Order of GSs are Tim, Carthage, Athens, Tim. Tim will need to get 67% more GP points in this case and will need more food. Farming the bananas allows one additional scientist (5 scientists total if working rice, 2 bananas, and 1 farmed grassland).

Given our current finances, an estimate of the time to research CoL's is about 40 to 43 turns.

Other plans involving building the Great Library and National epic in Carthage or Athens might also give a good result.

That is a lot of research and hammers...

My instinct is that with no beaker or GP bonuses to our specialists it's better to go for Plan A and work on developing some cottages in cities so that self-research doesn't become a bottleneck and so that we have more flexibility with other situations that might arise.

I agree with the cottages. I wonder about building Libraries versus researching CoL's.

After we capture Athens and Carthage (fingers crossed), I can playtest these different options and see what dates I get for Astronomy.

I think we will need to do this.

 

[ShannonCT]

This involves building a Library in each city we need Scientists to get a Great Scientist.


Given our current finances, an estimate of the time to research CoL's is about 40 to 43 turns.

I agree with the cottages. I wonder about building Libraries versus researching CoL's.

Libraries in our three GS cities would make sense just for the 25% bonus they give to research. But without CoL, we're looking at 75 turns from the time the third city hires it's two scientists to the time we get our thrid GS.

Code of Laws should take significantly fewer turns than 40 if we capture Athens and Carthage quickly (especially Athens). Both have large forests that can be converted to gold, and that means we will be able to do 100% research for quite some time. Most of our current cities and our two future cities have good commerce growth potential, with more gold mines, seafod, and rivers for cottages. Plus, CoL should get us a religion.

 

[leif erikson]

Libraries in our three GS cities would make sense just for the 25% bonus they give to research. But without CoL, we're looking at 75 turns from the time the third city hires it's two scientists to the time we get our third GS.

Yes, Libraries would make sense. What I was thinking about was how quickly we could have Libraries up and running versus getting CoL? It seems that we could start on CoL after the next 7 turns, once we have Priesthood.

Code of Laws should take significantly fewer turns than 40 if we capture Athens and Carthage quickly (especially Athens). Both have large forests that can be converted to gold, and that means we will be able to do 100% research for quite some time. Most of our current cities and our two future cities have good commerce growth potential, with more gold mines, seafod, and rivers for cottages. Plus, CoL should get us a religion.

I hope so. Once we have Athens and Carthage, our need for more units should drop off a bit. All we will need to do is parry Barbs, unless we meet someone else. I think we need to get our cities growing and decide what infrastructure we need to build in them. Also, I think we need to look at expansion plans, how many more cities and when and where do we build them.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

I just played the 2 turns and we took Athens but could not attempt to take Carthage.

Carthage trained a second archer on the first turn, and the surviving archer got 2 CD promotions so I pulled out with only two units there facing odds of 36% and 17%.

Luckily Athens did not produce an archer during the two turns and we took it with 3 units attacking across the river for a loss of 2 axes 1 sword. Athens gave 76 gold.

We can get an overwhelming force of swords with our veterans plus the new sword from London to Carthage in 12-13 turns so I plan to start prechopping for the Oracle in Ivoryville.

I plan to keep a sword next to Carthage to prevent workers coming out and will hopefully bait any new archers out of the city with a warrior before our main forces arrive.

The workboat has not found any civ and I will pause for discussion if we do find one before the Oracle is in for MC.

York is 7 turns from finishing SH since the workers there are currently chopping the last forest there.

I plan to leave Sparta for now (will check to see if it has a worker yet) and concentrate on capturing Carthage. After that we can return for Sparta and assess whether we wish to keep or not.

First build in Athens will be granary (it is size 3) but I will change to monument if we miss out on Stonehenge (since it will be a while before we can whip a library there and we want to save all forests for chopping into gold).

People happy with these plans? I would like to continue until Oracle this evening (about 6-8 hours time)

Save is attached.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Looking good .

Seems OK to go for the Oracle now that Athens has fallen.

A few ideas: I think Ironsite should start working the fish now - it doesn't delay Priesthood. Timbuktu could work the bananas instead of the unimproved hill. The captured worker in Athens can build a road on the gold mine to connect Athens to London. Since we would like to move the axe and the sword in Athens to Carthage I suggest that you prebuild an axe that can be whipped in case of emergency. It's not unlikely that the Greek will come visiting with an archer from Sparta and barbs from the tundra are also a threat. Next build in Tim should probably be a sword that we can whip almost immediately for 2 pop. If we want to settle the GG in London we should do it now before the sword is built.

Edit: We could speed up Stonehenge by researching Masonry first (3 turns) since Athens (and stone) will be connected 4 turns from now. We would have to delay the chop then - and Oracle also. Alternatively we could stop working on Stonehenge when there is 90 hammers left, and then time the chop with Masonry (after Priesthood). If we do any of this we probably need to keep working the gold in Ironsite.

Just looked at the treasury and I can see that we don't have the funds to complete Masonry also at 100% science. So it's probably better to build the Henge without waiting for the stone - or is it? The Henge is not all that useful since we need to research Calendar fairly soon. Maybe we should try to get it cheap by delaying the chop until after Masonry?