SGOTM 06 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

Be reading while playing a BOTM02 test game. Lots of interesting ideas and discussion.

Let me take a stab at summary and alteration of the plan from above.

Cities
Ironsite - I am a bit unclear on the priority of the Galley. Can we finish the Sword first while the Gold is mined and the other Worker begins the chop of the eastern forest. My calculations say that after 4-turns for the Sword, we should get the Galley 7-turns later. If we change to Galley immediately, then it is 8 turns to Galley and then Sword.
Athens - Hire both a Scientist and an Artist for 1-turn to get cultural growth next turn. Then fire them and concentrate on growing Athens. 2-Workers remain to improve the Copper and Sheep.
Carthage - Carthage has 5-turns of resistance remaining. During that time, using the 2-Workers there, we begin pre-chopping the forests. There are 8-forests that will be within Carthage's expanded cross. We have to save two of those forests; one for WB to go to Athens' to work Clam and the other to chop a Missionary for Athens. So we'll need 4-Workers from Athens to work Carthage.
Timbuktu - With the early chop of Athens, we will have the money to upgrade the Shock promoted Warrior to an Axeman. The Confucian Missionary will then leave the city under escort of the other Warrior. The Confucian Missionary will proceed to Carthage to convert the city and we'll then chop another Missionary for Athens.

Worker actions
The changes have been discussed above.
The difference in allocation is that of the Workers in Athens, four will go to Carthage, two will remain in Athens and the last one will go to Ivoryville. Priority the is the Cow tile and then a couple of Ivories, depending upon how timing is in getting Workers to Gold City to chop.

Military

Turn 127) saw two archers in Sparta, the next turn there were three archers there

This was 16 turns ago. Once we get on the grass hill overlooking Sparta, we'll see what is there. Hope it is still three archers, or better, one!!
Now a question, is it OK to remain on the hill spying or will that cause the AI to pop-rush more Archers?

The only difference here is upgrading the Warrior in Tim and escorting the Missionary out of the city to Carthage.
Also, the Northern Warriors push out towards Gold City site to bust the fog up there.

Techs
Here is some difference.
I estimate a minimum of 6 turns for the Missionary to reach Carthage. I propose we research Hunting first (Ivory Camps), then Monotheism (revolt to Organized Religion), then we research Meditation and then Construction. We can see what we need from there.

If I left something important out, please let me know so we can amend this again?

Nice work!!

 

[Cactus Pete]

But a workboat won't be useful for anything else. A galley will be useful for building a bridge city if possible, or for upgrading to a galleon later. Strongly agree with this logic.



I think we're actually in pretty good shape vs barbs. Tim's warrior can be upgraded to an axe and (fingers crossed) kill the warrior and archer. Tim should be safe after that. Our newest warrior can fogbust the area around the future Gold City. After the swordsman kills the archer approaching Ivoryville, the warrior there can go fogbust the jungle to the north in preparation for building Horse City. We only need a max of 2 CR3 swords to go take care of Sparta (in my test games, one was always enough). Athens is pretty safe now with two axemen on duty. A single unit placed in the jungle near the new barb city should keep it occupied. That sounds right to me, and at some point before barb axes start showing up, it would be good to get a chariot out and about.

I think we need the gold from all 7. Yes

"The Confucian Missionary will then leave the city under escort of the other Warrior." I haven't looked at this on the save, but it would seem likely that the missionary could proceed without escort if he moves cautiously -- that is, he saves a move (or two tiles, if on a road) at the end of each turn so that he doesn't confront a barb without the possibility of retreating. This doesn't work through difficult terrain (or perhaps traveling adjacent to a road), but can't he take a suitable route to avoid such?

 

[Frederiksberg]

Carthage - Carthage has 5-turns of resistance remaining. During that time, using the 2-Workers there, we begin pre-chopping the forests. There are 8-forests that will be within Carthage's expanded cross. We have to save two of those forests; one for WB to go to Athens' to work Clam and the other to chop a Missionary for Athens. So we'll need 4-Workers from Athens to work Carthage.

I think we need to chop all 8 forests in the fat cross into gold. I would suggest that you send the two workers in Carthage to chop two forests outside the fat cross W of Carthage and use those hammers to build the missionary for Athens.

Timbuktu - With the early chop of Athens, we will have the money to upgrade the Shock promoted Warrior to an Axeman. The Confucian Missionary will then leave the city under escort of the other Warrior. The Confucian Missionary will proceed to Carthage to convert the city and we'll then chop another Missionary for Athens.

Don't forget to hire an extra scientist here. The city will starve for a while but when the rice is improved we can stop the starvation again.

 

[ShannonCT]

Ironsite - I am a bit unclear on the priority of the Galley. Can we finish the Sword first while the Gold is mined and the other Worker begins the chop of the eastern forest. My calculations say that after 4-turns for the Sword, we should get the Galley 7-turns later. If we change to Galley immediately, then it is 8 turns to Galley and then Sword.

It's seems ok to me to finish the sword first if you think it is needed for defense. If the settler in York is 15 turns away, and the galley's main purpose is to build on cow island if a bridge is possible, then getting the galley in 11 turns serves its purpose.

Worker actionsThe difference in allocation is that of the Workers in Athens, four will go to Carthage, two will remain in Athens and the last one will go to Ivoryville. Priority the is the Cow tile and then a couple of Ivories, depending upon how timing is in getting Workers to Gold City to chop.

I would send more then one of Athens's workers to Ivoryville. Ivoryville has 5 tiles that need to be improved and four forests that can be chopped for more workers. With two workers at Carthage already, we don't need 4 more workers prechopping. I would use 3 workers minimum at Ivoryville.

[Military
This was 16 turns ago. Once we get on the grass hill overlooking Sparta, we'll see what is there. Hope it is still three archers, or better, one!!
Now a question, is it OK to remain on the hill spying or will that cause the AI to pop-rush more Archers?

I seem to remember that our CR3 swords are ~94% to win against the archers in Sparta. If there are more than two archers in Sparta, just kill two on the first go, heal, and kill some more. Two swords can heal faster than Sparta can produce more archers. Without any improvements there, it's dead.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I would send more then one of Athens's workers to Ivoryville. Ivoryville has 5 tiles that need to be improved and four forests that can be chopped for more workers. With two workers at Carthage already, we don't need 4 more workers prechopping. I would use 3 workers minimum at Ivoryville.

This makes sense, only make sure that we are ready to chop gold in Carthage around 15 turns from now since that is about the time when we run out of cash again. Prechopping 8 forests require aminimum of 5*8=40 worker turns when you include a turn to move to the forest so 2 workers (2*15=30 worker turns) are not enough - more so because they must also chop a missionary using forests outside the fat cross. We could perhaps use only one worker to improve tiles in Athens. We dont need the copper tile that much in the phase when we grow the city and run many scientists.

 

[leif erikson]

I think we need to chop all 8 forests in the fat cross into gold. I would suggest that you send the two workers in Carthage to chop two forests outside the fat cross W of Carthage and use those hammers to build the missionary for Athens.

I would send more then one of Athens's workers to Ivoryville. Ivoryville has 5 tiles that need to be improved and four forests that can be chopped for more workers. With two workers at Carthage already, we don't need 4 more workers prechopping. I would use 3 workers minimum at Ivoryville.

Took another look at this. There are 5-turns until Carthage comes out of resistance. Perhaps it would be better to keep 2-Workers near Athens, send one to Carthage directly and send the other 4 to Ivoryville, chop two more Workers at Ivoryville before sending what we need to chop 8-forests at Carthage?

And we will use forests outside the fat cross for Work Boat and Missionary, although at 24 hammers per chop, that is an additional 4 to 5 forests.

It's seems ok to me to finish the sword first if you think it is needed for defense. If the settler in York is 15 turns away, and the galley's main purpose is to build on cow island if a bridge is possible, then getting the galley in 11 turns serves its purpose.

I seem to remember that our CR3 swords are ~94% to win against the archers in Sparta. If there are more than two archers in Sparta, just kill two on the first go, heal, and kill some more. Two swords can heal faster than Sparta can produce more archers. Without any improvements there, it's dead.

We could delay the Sword in Ironsite based upon this. There are 4-CR3 Swords available, once they heal, near Carthage. That should be more than enough. That frees up 2-Axes and a Sword to go Barb Hunting. One Axe will need to visit the new Barb city while another could go north to support Gold City.

Don't forget to hire an extra scientist here. The city will starve for a while but when the rice is improved we can stop the starvation again.

Yes, sorry, I missed this in my midnight haze...


EDIT - May have some time this afternoon to start on this. That would be about 4 to 5 hours from the time of this post.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Looks like you are ready to go! Good luck!

 

[Cactus Pete]

Like the plan. What about upgrading warrior to sword, rather than axe -- thinking it would prove more useful in the long term? We already have 2 axes and will build a chariot(s) to deal with barb axes and thereby gain the medic promotion. (At this level a single promoted chariot is also pretty reliable against archers.)

Good luck, leif.

 

[ShannonCT]

Just did some calculations on worker actions:

Let's say that after the mass chop at Athens on turn 144, we leave 1 worker to pasture the sheep, 4 go to Ivoryville to chop and improve tiles, and two go on to Carthage. The 2 workers at Tim stay up there to improve tiles and build roads. The workers at Ironsite finish the gold mine together and then chop the forest to the east together, and later go help with elephant camps. The 2 workers at Carthage go to chop 2 forests outside the fat cross (but only 2). After cows are pastured and 2 forests are chopped for Ivoryville, 4 out of the 7 workers there can go to Carthage (there is a newly built worker and 2 from Ironsite still at Ivoryville). That gives us 8 workers ready to finish the chop in Carthage in ~16 turns. If 16 turns is not fast enough, we can send one of Tim's workers to help prechop.

Now if we expect the current workers in Carthage to chop two forests each (for the workboat and missionary), the big chop in Carthage gets delayed, or the improvements in Ivoryville get delayed. I was thinking that maybe a better solution would be to send Athens's worker towards Sparta after it finished the sheep (the copper is not very useful right now, because we already want to continue to work the gold mine, and another low food tile will really hurt our GP farming). We should be ready to capture Sparta by the time the worker arrives there, and it can start chopping while Sparta is in revolt. Sparta is five turns closer to the clams than Carthage, so we wouldn't lose much or any time getting the workboat over there. Trying to chop a workboat and a missionary in Carthage involves some painful tradeoffs.

 

[ShannonCT]

Like the plan. What about upgrading warrior to sword, rather than axe...

I think warriors can't be upgraded to swordsmen.

 

[leif erikson]

Starting now, nervously!!
So much to keep in mind.

@Shannon - I will probably use your ideas on Workers. Sparta will also need a Work Boat and it has only three forests. So producing two Work Boats there may be the best thing to do.

@CP - Warriors will only upgrade to Axes, at least it is the only choice I am given.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Good luck leif!

I've been reading the discussion and agree with what has been proposed (excellent work Xteamers!).

Go get 'em

Just a reminder to be careful moving workers and missionaries around the fog, especially when there is a fogged road ahead.

 

[DJMGator13]

Having not used it before I've been testing the Gold Chop today and found an interesting aspect to it. We can give up a little gold in the chop for speed. Once a city has reached size 2 it can whip a wall without any hammers in the box for only 1 pop and still net 600 gold from 5 forest chops. Obvivously our best results is to wait until there is only 1 production turn remaining on the wall build to net in the 720 gold range, but there is no requirement for it to be at 1 turn. In my Test 2 I whipped after only 1 turn of production and when my treasury was less than the gold required to maintain 100% research. Based on this I netted 660 gold, only 60 gold less than max but was able to chop a full 7 turns earlier.

-----------------------------------------
Gold Wall Chop Test
City Size 2
Wall cost 75 hammers

Test 1: Whip 1 citizen and 5 chops when 1 production turn left on wall

Gold in Treasury: 128
Hammers in wall prior to whip: 72/75
Hammers in wall post whip: 207/75 this converts to 132 gold
5 Forest Chops converts to: 663 gold (includes 3 from tiles worked)

With research at 100% running at -36gpt
Treasury starts the next turn at 813 gold
128 -36 + 663 +132 - 75 = 812
Net gold gain: 720
Hammer carryover of 25 to next build


Test 2: Whip 1 citizen and 5 chops when more than 1 production turn left on wall (but costs only 1 pop to whip)
Gold in Treasury: 12
Hammers in wall prior to whip: 9/75 (1 turn into build)
Hammers in wall post whip: 144/75 this converts to 69 gold
5 Forest Chops converts to: 663 gold (includes 3 from tiles worked)

With research at 100% running at -36gpt
Treasury starts the next turn at 660 gold
(12 -36) + 663 + 69 - 75 = should be around 633, but game gave 660, however game adjusted research slider
So order of math becomes: Treasury +/- gpt capped at zero, then into the chop conversions
Net gold gain: 660 when our treasury is less then -gpt required to stay at 100% research
Hammer carryover of 25 to next build

Test 3: Whip 1 citizen and 5 chops with 0 in box
Gold in Treasury: 2
Hammers in wall prior to whip: 0/75
Hammers in wall post whip: 90/75 this converts to 15 gold
5 Forest Chops converts to: 663 gold (includes 3 from tiles worked)

With research at 100% running at -36gpt
Treasury starts the next turn at 605 gold
(2 -36) + 663 +15 - 75 = should be around 569, but game gave 605, however game adjusted research slider
So order of math becomes: Treasury +/- gpt capped at zero, then into the chop conversions
Net gold gain: 603 when our treasury is less then -gpt required to stay at 100% research
Hammer carryover of 25 0 to next build (Updated after verifying)

-----------------------

When treasury is too small to support -gpt, research rate is auto adjusted but if our treasury is greater than the 36 gold then research remains at 100% in both Test 2 & 3. If treasury too small we need to set research to 0% before game adjust slider and bank the extra gold.


Only difference in the 3 tests are the "Hammers in wall post whip" and our whip adds 180 hammers in Test 1 & 2 but only 90 in Test 3 (empty box start). Wouldn't recommend doing this from an empty box unless we are flat broke and 1 turn is critical.


----------------------


Good luck leif!

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

So Gator, your tests showed that:

During the in-between-turn, the gold from the chop overflow gets added on after the resolution of the slider and treasury-applied-to-research phase.

If we chop on the same turn that our treasury would go below 0 at 100% research, the game will adjust the slider thinking there is a deficit (despite getting a huge ammount of gold applied the next turn) and we suffer one turn at less than 100% research.

Right?

 

[leif erikson]

I've played 12 turns. Everything was going pretty well until the chop that was meant for Carthage and the Missionary went instead to Ivoryville.

The question is should we bulb Philosophy and revolt to Pacifism or wait until Confucianism is in Athens?

I will attach the current save below:

 

[Frederiksberg]

The question is should we bulb Philosophy and revolt to Pacifism or wait until Confucianism is in Athens?

Tough question. My initial thought was that it would be better to revolt after the missionary is built so that he can move during anarchy thus saving a turn. Another thing you could do is to move 3 workers to the forest NW of Carthage and build a road. The problem is that this will delay the chop too much....

OK - here's an idea. Move the worker from the wine tile onto the NW forest and build road in 2 turns. When the missionary is built revolt to Pacifism. The anarchy will give us a free turn for moving the missionary and for chopping. Move the nearest worker from Ivoryville to the forest that is still missing 5 turns of chopping. Use 2 workers to improve the Ivory so that we can get an extra happy face in Athens and MM Athens for maximum growth (work water tiles instead of plains). MM Ivoryville to use the cow or the iron tile instead of the plains tile. When our axes in Timbuktu have healed they might as well move out from the city so they can assume defensive positions around the city thus protecting our improvements.

Btw. it's looking good - we have Sparta and the chop is on schedule.

 

[leif erikson]

Our military is starting to cost us some maintenance, about 20 GPT, iirc.

Also, it is interesting that I have not seen any Barb Axes but the first Barb Sword appeared near Tim this turn.

I think your idea should work fine. I was concerned that there was something that would prevent us from spreading religion or something else. Keeping track of Worker turns has been, well, interesting.

I have a meeting that I must attend this evening, hopefully I can finish up the last few turns before bed.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Another thing: I think next tech should be Calendar - Athens will grow to size 10 in no time and we badly need to get those spices hooked...

 

[leif erikson]

Another thing: I think next tech should be Calendar - Athens will grow to size 10 in no time and we badly need to get those spices hooked...

Yes, I agree.

We will also know about the culture bridge within a turn or two. I will probably pass it off once we have the settler and know whether a culture bridge is possible or not.

 

[Frederiksberg]

And maximize food in Carthage until Pacifism then hire 4 scientists. It must follow Timbuktu wrt GP points.