Turn 31. I found Capac, ugh. He currently has no religion. Let's hope Judaism spreads to him so everyone hates him. I'm gonna open borders cus I want to continue to explore past him.
SGOTM 07 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Sweetacshon
In the foetal position
What a weird point to put in
I think I read somewhere that that bonus beaker stops when you allocate your first scientist - not that it impacts too much at that stage, although it may on OCC.@WT: Sounds good, but I'm a little confused. Have you finished your set? If not, can you upload the save (to the thread) and/or post some pics so we can have a look, pls?
I've just been giving a blow-by-blow and pausing to see if anyone has a comment. I must admit this is a lot of fun, but it's hard to stop. Normally it takes me an hour to stop once I decide to stop "soon."
I'll pick a good place to stop shortly and upload the save.
I'll pick a good place to stop shortly and upload the save.
More trouble. It's Alex! My impression of him is that he attacks if you have a religion. Not sure why I always think of him first for this. I guess cus back in the early days when I reloaded. I was able to avoid war with him by going back in time and not taking a religion.
He has no religion. Open borders? We don't need to go thru his territory right now. I'll wait on that until the next turnset.
He has no religion. Open borders? We don't need to go thru his territory right now. I'll wait on that until the next turnset.
Sweetacshon
In the foetal position
Alex. I knew there'd be a madman around somewhere - as if HC isn't annoying enough. We could perhaps open borders to see what he's working with, as long as we remember to cancel it in 10 turns.
Capac has axe and spear already.
Turn 33:
Now we meet Fredrick. He's Buddhist, but not the founder, so there's another.
(I'll do 12 turns total, cus that is when we grow to size 4)
Furs 82%, NY still has not expanded.
Turn 33:
Now we meet Fredrick. He's Buddhist, but not the founder, so there's another.
(I'll do 12 turns total, cus that is when we grow to size 4)
Furs 82%, NY still has not expanded.
I need to go, so I'll pause here with 2 turns to go and finish later tonight.
NY has now expanded. We're only 68% Fur.
The worker needs a new task (after mining marble & Stone)
Warrior needs to move yet.
NY has now expanded. We're only 68% Fur.
The worker needs a new task (after mining marble & Stone)
Warrior needs to move yet.
culdeus
Emperor
I don't like the OB with HC. He's prone to attack and could prompt lots of "end relations with" requests. I thought the general plan was not to spam OB until we got a decent foothold on things. In fact, that's way too many OB for me to feel comfortable. I don't see the advantage in knowing the land at all vs. the risk.
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
Yeah, I agree with culdeus. Opening borders with Alex would be a big mistake IMHO. I also think we should close borders with HC as soon as the ten turns are up. It might also be worth considering closing borders with whoever we want to target to be our PA partner (just until turn 60 or so, when we are in a stronger position) so we don't get penalized for having to "stop trading with them" when HC or Alex gets a bee up his -- er, tunic about it. Washington too, for that matter, because if Alex "asks" us to close borders with him then we could end up getting screwed two different ways at the same time.
I am glad we did the exploring though, because now we know seven AI instead of just four. That will be an extremely important advantage once the trading begins... always assuming we make it that far, of course!
Sabre
Cheftain
Pretty sure you can cancel open border agreements after 10 turns with no penalty. A quick OB for exploration purposes shouldn't be too dangerous.
My camping trip was awesome, now I've got lots of reading to catch up on!
My camping trip was awesome, now I've got lots of reading to catch up on!
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
With the fur gone I don't think it matters. Maybe camp the deer first simply because it is closer to enemy borders and we don't want to be dangling a worker out there later? Whatever we choose I think we'll want to plan for the worker to be back on top of the marble by the time we're able to trade for masonry. Speaking of which, can you give me some numbers? Where are we in terms of food, hammers, commerce, & beakers? The 13 turns left to research alphabet looks great, but I'd like to figure out how long it will take after we lose the fur.
I'd send him South. We might meet more than just the civ that founded Buddhism hiding down there. Also, if they aren't of the crazy flavor then they might be far enough away to risk opening borders without worrying about it too much. If nothing else, that might give Alex and HC someone safe to complain about and make it less likely they'll tell us to dump on someone important.
From 82% to 68% in one turn. Amazing what a difference that +20 makes. I'm guessing we may get one more turn out of the fur.
EDIT: 100 posts.
I think about 70% have gone to this thread. You guys getting tired of me yet? 
I was instructed to OB with all. I didn't do Alex, but I needed Capac to make more contacts. That will be important when Alpha comes. The thing is Capac can't get OB with Washington yet, so he can't reach us. We can't consider closing OB with Washington. We'd lose our trade commerce and all of our resource trades.
I'm hearing a lot of paranoia surrounding OB. Does anyone have any documented proof that OB causes war, or is that just a theory? I see it as improving relations. I also wonder if sometimes a neighbor is forced to declare war on you because they are boxed in. Letting them pass thru could keep them from attacking. That is just a theory though.
Very good point. I've noticed this behavior as well. Even though it is also just a theory, it seems that the temptation of stealing a worker is enough to trigger war sometimes.
As expected, Isabella is the Buddhism founder. I did not OB.
Fur 59%
Fur 59%
I've stopped mid-turn, and I will upload the save. Is that OK, or end-of-turn only? our Warrior has 1/2 move left. I think we should OB with Isabella and continue to explore south, but I'll leave that up the the next player.
Losing our Fur will work out OK. We get our Library 2 turns earlier because of the switch to stone. And then we will spend 17 turns with scientists. (Borders expand in exactly 10 turns, so we can fight for our Fur.) We will be missing the fur when we get to size 5. Hopefully we can trade for a gold or something.
Speaking of trades, Liz is connected (thru coast I guess). I forgot this is Vanilla, in BTS, we would have needed to explore the coast first, and I think we need sailing too.
More on routes: Wash put a road on our deer (and our silver). How nice. I wish he'd do the marble.
Capac got Hindu also now.
Losing our Fur will work out OK. We get our Library 2 turns earlier because of the switch to stone. And then we will spend 17 turns with scientists. (Borders expand in exactly 10 turns, so we can fight for our Fur.) We will be missing the fur when we get to size 5. Hopefully we can trade for a gold or something.
Speaking of trades, Liz is connected (thru coast I guess). I forgot this is Vanilla, in BTS, we would have needed to explore the coast first, and I think we need sailing too.
More on routes: Wash put a road on our deer (and our silver). How nice. I wish he'd do the marble.
Capac got Hindu also now.
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
It is just a theory, but it has been tested fairly extensively using our testgames -- at least by me. I also think culdeus, Sweetaschon, and greatbeyond have done at least some testing of their own and confirmed what I "think" I found. Specifically, I always got DOWed sooner or later until I started closing borders with at least Khan and HC. Building units didn't matter, and neither did anything else I tested, but keeping closed borders worked like a charm. I was still able to trade effectively with them even after keeping closed borders. I think that even if we just keep the borders closed until after our first few rounds of trading, that would be enough. I'm guessing that if we can just get our power graph (or "image," if thinking about it that way makes more sense) up in the early part of the game then we won't have to worry as much about getting DOWed later when we have tech parity or even a tech lead.
Then we'll need a plan for what we're going to do when HC tells us we need to dump him on turn 50 or so. Can't we just close borders until, say, about turn 70? After that I don't think it will matter, and I don't think we'll get much of a commerce boost from him before then anyway. Also, if we want to save Asoka for a PA, does it make sense to consider closing borders with him until we feel strong enough to refuse a demand to dump him? I *think* I'd rather do that than take the permanent relations hit that would come from the "you stopped trading with us" penalty.
Yes, I think this is probably true, but I don't think our territory is boxing anyone in, is it?
Agreed - totally. Meeting those other AI was critical. But do we need to keep the borders open, or would it be okay to shut them for a while?
Thanks. I'm going to worry about this with Washington for a while.
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
I don't know, but I think I read somewhere that the end-of-turn save was preferred.
Maybe I'm just chicken, but I think we've got enough trading partners to do us fine now. We've got eight, right? (Washington, Liz, Asoka, HC, Alex, Frederick, Isabella, & Toku -- okay, maybe Toku don't count
) That is more than I ever had in the test game. I *suggest* we leave it at that and reassess after we're safely through the next 30 turns or so. (But I'm still willing to be convinced that there is a better way to go... )If we don't close borders with Washington, then IMHO we should have a strategy ready to answer any request to dump him. I'm sure Izzy will get around to it sooner or later even if Alex and HC decide to play nice for a while. Is she far enough away that we can get away with just telling her to take a hike? What if she asks us to dump Liz or Asoka?
Closing OB w/ Capac in 10 sounds fine.
I never have a problem denying the requests to stop trading with someone. It's only a -1 and it fades over time. "You've traded with our enemy" adds up much faster (-4).
Regarding boxing in: we were preventing them from settling in the snow for the crab/fish/sheep spot. I find that the #1 way to get the "usually friendly" AI to attack is if they run out of space. Happened frequently when I try to play with just 4 on a Tiny map...with 17 who knows.
I'm not a big supporter of the "Power image" theory. Like I said, I've played all game with just 1 warrior and some crazy AIs. If they have another war on their hands, they'll leave you alone.
I never have a problem denying the requests to stop trading with someone. It's only a -1 and it fades over time. "You've traded with our enemy" adds up much faster (-4).
Regarding boxing in: we were preventing them from settling in the snow for the crab/fish/sheep spot. I find that the #1 way to get the "usually friendly" AI to attack is if they run out of space. Happened frequently when I try to play with just 4 on a Tiny map...with 17 who knows.
I'm not a big supporter of the "Power image" theory. Like I said, I've played all game with just 1 warrior and some crazy AIs. If they have another war on their hands, they'll leave you alone.
Maybe I'm just chicken, but I think we've got enough trading partners to do us fine now. We've got eight, right?
(But I'm still willing to be convinced that there is a better way to go...
Knowing more AI
1) affects your research rate if you're researching something they know already.
2) Makes more tech available because of the whole monopoly thing.
3) We want to find Mansa!
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