SGOTM 07 - Fifth Element

[MacBalt]

3) We want to find Mansa!

Ha! Yeah, I know. But do we really need to find him before alphabet, or can he wait until after the first round of trades? I don't know because I just have very little experience with this kind of game. Maybe he'll be untouchable if we don't cozy up to him now? Even if we keep searching though, there are no guarantees... He might well be on the other side of the world flirting with Catherine. (I'm not sure it's worth it for us if the price is that we have to kiss up to Izzy.)

 

[MacBalt]

I never have a problem denying the requests to stop trading with someone. It's only a -1 and it fades over time. "You've traded with our enemy" adds up much faster (-4).

I'm confused. If we deny a request to stop trading, then aren't we continuing to "trade with our [their] enemy?" I'm worried that refusing to stop might lead to a DOW from the AI making the request -- especially if it is Alex or Izzy.

Regarding boxing in: we were preventing them from settling in the snow for the crab/fish/sheep spot. I find that the #1 way to get the "usually friendly" AI to attack is if they run out of space. Happened frequently when I try to play with just 4 on a Tiny map...with 17 who knows.

I didn't see that, but I'm sure you are right. Hopefully Washington is peaceful enough that the OB and being his "biatch" when he makes demands will keep him from deciding to invade.

I'm not a big supporter of the "Power image" theory. Like I said, I've played all game with just 1 warrior and some crazy AIs. If they have another war on their hands, they'll leave you alone.

I can't pretend to speak with any authority about this. I just don't know how significant the "power" measure really is with regard to AI behavior. I like your "war" analysis though. It might even be worth kissing up to Izzy if we could get her to attack someone else and keep them busy. Is that a real possibility at this level (or even a good way to go at all)?

Oh, by the way, great turnset too. Whatever we decide next at least we found more trading partners!

@greatbeyond: Things happened so quickly I don't think we ever properly acknowledged your turnset either -- Thank you and well done!

 

[WastinTime]

I'm confused. If we deny a request to stop trading, then aren't we continuing to "trade with our [their] enemy?" I'm worried that refusing to stop might lead to a DOW

The discussion on this hasn't been clear. The "request to stop trading" is actually a request to cancel deals. That is for OB and resources.

Trade with worst enemy is tech trading or money gifts.

Refusing to cancel deals does not figure into their decision to start a war. It simply gives you -1 to relations. Not a big deal, but could be enough to cause a war. Same as refusing their civic or religion.

Latest save attached:

 

[MacBalt]

The discussion on this hasn't been clear. The "request to stop trading" is actually a request to cancel deals. That is for OB and resources.

Trade with worst enemy is tech trading or money gifts.

Okay, so the thing we most need to be careful not to do is trade techs or money with the enemy of a prospective PA partner, right? I'm not sure I know how to assess this. Are "worst enemies" listed on an F4 screen somewhere, or do we just go by the worst scoring "glance" relationship? Or does it only matter when the prospective PA partner asks us to stop trading? How careful are we going to have to be about this during the "alphabet" round of trading? (Sorry about all the noob questions.)

I just looked at the save. Do we REALLY need OB with Izzy? Can't we just go around using Fred's roads? It looks like Izzy is tucked into a coastal backwater anyway, doesn't it? (I'm assuming that's Toku showing red up toward the NE, and that we can't go that way.) Who knows, maybe Mansa is hiding to the SW instead of directly South???

 

[Sweetacshon]

Originally Posted by WastinTime
I've stopped mid-turn, and I will upload the save. Is that OK, or end-of-turn only? our Warrior has 1/2 move left.

It's ok with me, as long as it is specified what needs to be done to complete the turn. Have you finished your turns? I guess not, seeing as though you haven't uploaded the save.

The glance screen is the easiest way to tell who is who's worst enemy, etc. We should keep track of this religiously, especially early, and cancel our deals with those who are hated by the loonies. As WT said, the easiest way to avoid being attacked by a crazy AI is to have their focus elsewhere. Unfortunately, our continent is getting cranky already, with Izzy at -4 the Hindus. This will cause problems. We might want to close borders with everyone except Lizzy or even Alex if we're feeling gutsy - who are religionless and hence at 0 with all - until the worst enemies are ironed out. Funnily enough, HC is also a candidate at the moment, but it's only early. I'll keep a close watch in my ts.

 

[MacBalt]

Okay, here is my stab at one possible path through turn 50. Given my past failures, I'm pretty sure it still has errors, so feel free to help me understand where I've screwed up...

Bottom Line so far (finish turn/pop-up turn):
Library on 42/43
Alphabet on 47/48
Great Scientist projected for Turn 60.

That is only two turns later than our original target date for Library/GS, and only one turn later for Alphabet. Not bad, considering the obstacles!

Duh Details:

Spoiler :

Population = 4

Important Tiles:
City: +2F, +2H, +1C:
Crab: +4F, +3C:
Fur: +1F, +2H, +5C
Marble Mine: +5H
Stone Mine: +5H
Sheep: +5F, +2H, +1C
Deer: +4F, +2H

Tiles Worked by Turn:
Turn 36: Work 2 Crabs, Fur, & Marble (11-8=+3, +4, +20)
Turn 37-41: Work 2 Crabs, Marble, & Stone (10-8=+2F, +12H, +15C)
Turn 42: Work 2 Crabs, Marble, & Coast (11-8=+3F, +5H +18C)
Turn 43-45: Work 2 Crabs & 2 Scientists (10-8=+2, +2, +15, +6)
Turn 46: Work Crab, Coast, & 2 Scientists (7-8=-1, +2, +15, +6)
Turn 47-50: Work Crab, Marble, & 2 Scientists (6-8=-2, +7, +12, +6)

Food: (start = 3 of 28 for Pop 5 [but 4 is happy cap]):
Turn 36: 3+3=6
Turn 37: 6+2=8
Turn 38: 8+2=10
Turn 39: 10+2=12
Turn 40: 12+2=14
Turn 41: 14+2=16
Turn 42: 16+3=19
Turn 43: 19+2=21
Turn 44: 21+2=23
Turn 45: 23+2=25
Turn 46: 25-1=24
Turn 47: 24-2=22
Turn 48: 22-2=20
Turn 49: 20-2=18
Turn 50: 18-2=16

Production: (start = 21 of 90 for Library)
Turn 36: 21+4=25
Turn 37: 25+12=37
Turn 38: 27+12=49
Turn 39: 49+12=61
Turn 40: 61+12=73
Turn 41: 73+12=85
Turn 42: 85+5=90 Library Complete
Turn 43: 0+2=2 (overflow = 0; Build ____________)
Turn 44: 2+2=4
Turn 45: 4+2=6
Turn 46: 6+2=8
Turn 47: 8+7=15
Turn 48: 15+7=22
Turn 49: 22+7=29
Turn 50: 29+7=36

Calculation of Research (Beakers Per Turn):
Equation: ((#*%sci) + #[from specialists] + 1) * (building modifier) * (prerequisite modifier) = BPT
Turn 36: 20C @ 100% sci = 20B + 0B +1 = 21 * 1.00 = 21 * 1.2 = 25 BPT
Turn 37: 15C @ 100% sci = 15B + 0B +1 = 16 * 1.00 = 16 * 1.2 = 19 BPT
Turn 38: 15C @ 100% sci = 15B + 0B +1 = 16 * 1.00 = 16 * 1.2 = 19 BPT
Turn 39: 15C @ 100% sci = 15B + 0B +1 = 16 * 1.00 = 16 * 1.2 = 19 BPT
Turn 40: 15C @ 100% sci = 15B + 0B +1 = 16 * 1.00 = 16 * 1.2 = 19 BPT
Turn 41: 15C @ 100% sci = 15B + 0B +1 = 16 * 1.00 = 16 * 1.2 = 19 BPT
Turn 42: 18C @ 100% sci = 18B + 0B +1 = 19 * 1.00 = 15 * 1.2 = 22 BPT
Turn 43: 15C @ 100% sci = 15B + 6B +1 = 22 * 1.25 = 27 * 1.2 = 32 BPT
Turn 44: 15C @ 100% sci = 15B + 6B +1 = 22 * 1.25 = 27 * 1.2 = 32 BPT
Turn 45: 15C @ 100% sci = 15B + 6B +1 = 22 * 1.25 = 27 * 1.2 = 32 BPT
Turn 46: 15C @ 100% sci = 15B + 6B +1 = 22 * 1.25 = 27 * 1.2 = 32 BPT
Turn 47: 12C @ 100% sci = 12B + 6B +1 = 19 * 1.25 = 23 * 1.2 = 27 BPT
Turn 48: 12C @ 100% sci = 12B + 6B +1 = 19 * 1.25 = 23 * 1.2 = 27 BPT
Turn 49: 12C @ 100% sci = 12B + 6B +1 = 19 * 1.25 = 23 * 1.2 = 27 BPT
Turn 50: 12C @ 100% sci = 12B + 6B +1 = 19 * 1.25 = 23 * 1.2 = 27 BPT

Research: (start = 156 of 429 for Alphabet)
Turn 36: 156+25=181
Turn 37: 181+19=200
Turn 38: 200+19=219
Turn 39: 219+19=238
Turn 40: 238+19=257
Turn 41: 257+19=276
Turn 42: 276+22=298
Turn 43: 298+32=330
Turn 44: 330+32=362
Turn 45: 360+32=394
Turn 46: 394+32=426
Turn 47: 426+27=453 Alphabet Complete
Turn 48: 24+27=51 (overflow = 24; Study Polytheism)
Turn 49: 51+27=78
Turn 50: 78+27=105

 

[BLubmuz]

@WT
Usually to save and upload a mid turn is better, so next player have some more room to correct mistakes, if any.
Not clear if you finished your TS. edit: sorry you just not uploaded in the official page.

Man, 3 TSs and already 14 pages!
Yes i said the OB with anyone thing, and i don't regret it.
Not be much paranoid, in my test game GK was pleased with me when he DoWed.
For sure avoid OB with Izzy, and close the OB (via F4) with the Civs in bad relations with possible partners or with dangerous neighbors.

The best we can do is to build our library, work the furs until we can and have at least 2 warriors in the city, while the free one continues scouting.
And hope that next TS will not be the last one.

Yes, pity we have not found Mansa, but maybe he's intentionally out of range. Anyway with all that civs trades will not be a problem.

For the rest, this game seems a nightmare, but let's wait our first round of trades before to speak.

I've seen Alpha is due in 13:
i think that Sweeta can play until it's in, then upload a SS with the tech trades, so we can discuss on it.
If some Civ asks for a trade in the between-turn where alpha arrives we got 2 chances:
- the trade is actually a good deal and he accepts,
- he gently refuses to see what's around
then i'd like to change the roster to be up for that TS, if you agree.

Graph gazing:
looking at the power graph, i can bet we'll have copper in our FC, just look at the purple one (US?) after 1600 BC and at the Trash Team after 3000.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Well, I can't play anything until WT uploads to the sgotm server, and if you could post your autolog, that'd be great too.

After that, I'll press enter 13 times, with some slight MMing as explained above (I'll check it first, of course), and close borders where I think appropriate.

edit: If this is your first sg, perhaps you haven't submitted before, so go here
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm.php
and it's self explanatory. The autolog is in the civ4\autolog folder. I realise this is probably similar to gotm or hof, so sorry to explain if you don't need it, I just wasn't sure.

 

[WastinTime]

edit: If this is your first sg, perhaps you haven't submitted before, so go here
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm.php
and it's self explanatory. The autolog is in the civ4\autolog folder. I realise this is probably similar to gotm or hof, so sorry to explain if you don't need it, I just wasn't sure.

No, I needed this info. I didn't get the save from any special place. I played the one posted to this thread, but I see now that was not an attachment. I'll upload properly now

 

[WastinTime]

No worry on the Alphabet trades. Usually no "worst enemy" yet, and if there is, the bad relations fade over time.

 

[culdeus]

I think general save etiquette is to finish all unit movement and don't hit enter to end the turn. In this way some changes in MM and other paths can be discussed for the next person.

We've got lots of people on our island. I really thought there was a 50/50 shot of having our own island to ourselves or two military weak rulers or something to that effect.

Graph gazing shows lots of things. (some of this is wild guesses though)

Our score shows we are putting a priority on food tiles versus other teams. The Geezers though got to size 4 at least 2 turns before us without a worker.

Unusual suspects hit the "wall" at turn 40 with the max happy and then took some time to get to size 5. I can't figure out what would bump them so much past turn 60. They did not build a wonder as their culture is still running at Palace+library rate.

Chokunuts thru turn 20 has not built a single military unit.

Realms. must have gone something like warrior - wb - warrior -warrior -warrior to get to 25 by turn 30.

Xteam pumped at least 2 early warriors before settling down a bit.

Our military is trending towards the bottom two or three teams.

I wonder what Trash did to jump their culture up marginally at turn 28 or so. No way they got a religion spread so early right?

We will beat XTeam and Smurkz to the library. Of course their power is 2x or more of ours at this point.

 

[culdeus]

I'm convinced now that with all these AI on the continent that half of the human teams will be dead or dying at 0AD.

When exactly do we build a barracks? Before or after the first archer?

Also need to fine tune whipping strategies.

 

[BLubmuz]

I updated the list of saves on page 1, where i linked also the results page.
I change the roster to put myself after Sweeta, if you agree.

I propose the goals for Sweeta's TS:
- complete library,
- while working the tiles that give us the highest possible commerce,
- once library is complete, put scientists at work, while continue growing the city, stopping right before the happy cap
- start barracks
- play until Alpha is in, post a SS for the possible trades so we can discuss.
- Hope that no one attacks, or it will be our last TS (you're committed to play the entire TS with the right hand fingers crossed, find your way to move the mouse )

@ Greatbeyond and WastinTime:
to post the autolog at the end of your TS will be appreciated, remember to use the ".txt" extension and to use the "forum tags" option under the HoF1 tab.
Dammit i don't even know how many turns you played (well, i do, roughly)

 

[WastinTime]

We are mid-turn 36.

We don't want to "complete libr. while working highest commerce" as you said, we want the library asap (6 turns) to get scientist on turn 59.

Instead of barracks, a couple of quick warriors would be nice. We could fend off a small attack. More importantly, we will need cheap/large quantity of extra military lying around for happiness after Hereditary rule is on. Once we hook up copper, no more cheap units.

I forgot to turn on autolog until a few turns into my set. I looked at the log file and it's pretty empty. I may have screwed that up (too).

 

[BLubmuz]

Yes, you're right i was forgetting we need hammers to complete the library soon.
Oh well, with the highest possible commerce with max hammers.

 

[dutchfire]

Wow, 2 pages of discussion when I was gone for a day.

Nice turnset WT!

We could close our borders with the civs our warrior has passed.

 

[MacBalt]

We don't want to "complete libr. while working highest commerce" as you said, we want the library asap (6 turns) to get scientist on turn 59.

So, drop the fur tile even before it flips and work both Marble & Stone instead? Wow, that does make a big difference, for both the Library and Alphabet. Were back up to our original target date for Alphabet! Amazing!

@ WT



Plan #2 Bottom Line (finish turn/pop-up turn):
Library on 41/42
Alphabet on 46/47
Great Scientist projected for Turn 59.

Duh Details:

Spoiler :

Population = 4

Important Tiles:
City: +2F, +2H, +1C (plus Palace = +8C)
Crab: +4F, +3C
Fur: +1F, +2H, +5C
Marble Mine: +5H
Stone Mine: +5H
Sheep: +5F, +2H, +1C
Deer: +4F, +2H

Tiles Worked by Turn:
Turn 36-41: Work 2 Crabs, Marble, & Stone (10-8=+2, +12, +15)
Turn 42-46: Work 2 Crabs & 2 Scientists (10-8=+2, +2, +15, +6)
Turn 47-50: Work Crab, Marble, & 2 Scientists (6-8=-2, +7, +12, +6)

Food: (start = 3 of 28 for Pop 5 [but 4 is happy cap]):
Turn 36: 3+2=5
Turn 37: 5+2=7
Turn 38: 7+2=9
Turn 39: 9+2=11
Turn 40: 11+2=13
Turn 41: 13+2=15
Turn 42: 15+2=17
Turn 43: 17+2=19
Turn 44: 19+2=21
Turn 45: 21+2=23
Turn 46: 23+2=25
Turn 47: 25-2=23
Turn 48: 23-2=21
Turn 49: 21-2=19
Turn 50: 19-2=17

Production: (start = 21 of 90 for Library)
Turn 36: 21+12=33
Turn 37: 33+12=45
Turn 38: 45+12=57
Turn 39: 57+12=69
Turn 40: 69+12=81
Turn 41: 81+12=93 (Library Complete)
Turn 42: 3+2=5 (overflow = 3; Build __barracks_or_warrior?__)
Turn 43: 5+2=7
Turn 44: 7+2=9
Turn 45: 9+2=11
Turn 46: 11+2=13
Turn 47: 13+7=20
Turn 48: 20+7=27
Turn 49: 27+7=34
Turn 50: 34+7=41

Calculation of Research (Beakers Per Turn):
Equation: ((#*%sci) + #[from specialists] + 1) * (building modifier) * (prerequisite modifier) = BPT
Turn 36: 15C @ 100% sci = 15B + 0B +1 = 16 * 1.00 = 16 * 1.2 = 19 BPT
Turn 37: 15C @ 100% sci = 15B + 0B +1 = 16 * 1.00 = 16 * 1.2 = 19 BPT
Turn 38: 15C @ 100% sci = 15B + 0B +1 = 16 * 1.00 = 16 * 1.2 = 19 BPT
Turn 39: 15C @ 100% sci = 15B + 0B +1 = 16 * 1.00 = 16 * 1.2 = 19 BPT
Turn 40: 15C @ 100% sci = 15B + 0B +1 = 16 * 1.00 = 16 * 1.2 = 19 BPT
Turn 41: 15C @ 100% sci = 15B + 0B +1 = 16 * 1.00 = 16 * 1.2 = 19 BPT
Turn 42: 15C @ 100% sci = 15B + 6B +1 = 22 * 1.25 = 27 * 1.2 = 32 BPT
Turn 43: 15C @ 100% sci = 15B + 6B +1 = 22 * 1.25 = 27 * 1.2 = 32 BPT
Turn 44: 15C @ 100% sci = 15B + 6B +1 = 22 * 1.25 = 27 * 1.2 = 32 BPT
Turn 45: 15C @ 100% sci = 15B + 6B +1 = 22 * 1.25 = 27 * 1.2 = 32 BPT
Turn 46: 15C @ 100% sci = 15B + 6B +1 = 22 * 1.25 = 27 * 1.2 = 32 BPT
Turn 47: 12C @ 100% sci = 12B + 6B +1 = 19 * 1.25 = 23 * 1.2 = 27 BPT
Turn 48: 12C @ 100% sci = 12B + 6B +1 = 19 * 1.25 = 23 * 1.2 = 27 BPT
Turn 49: 12C @ 100% sci = 12B + 6B +1 = 19 * 1.25 = 23 * 1.2 = 27 BPT
Turn 50: 12C @ 100% sci = 12B + 6B +1 = 19 * 1.25 = 23 * 1.2 = 27 BPT

Research: (start = 156 of 429 for Alphabet)
Turn 36: 156+19=175
Turn 37: 175+19=194
Turn 38: 194+19=213
Turn 39: 213+19=232
Turn 40: 232+19=251
Turn 41: 251+19=270
Turn 42: 270+32=302
Turn 43: 302+32=334
Turn 44: 334+32=366
Turn 45: 366+32=398
Turn 46: 398+32=430 Alphabet Complete
Turn 47: 1+27=28 (overflow = 1; Study Polytheism)
Turn 48: 28+27=55
Turn 49: 55+27=82
Turn 50: 82+27=109

 

[culdeus]

Can someone post the "relationshps" window? It would be good to see. If nobody does it I will tonight sometime.

 

[WastinTime]

So, drop the fur tile even before it flips and work both Marble & Stone instead?

No, 1 more turn with fur, then 5 turns on stone will get the library out.

 

[MacBalt]

Can someone post the "relationshps" window? It would be good to see. If nobody does it I will tonight sometime.

Is this what you want?