SGOTM 07 - Fifth Element

[WastinTime]

Our next stop, after Lit, is Civil Service. Drama/theater is a long way off.
HR civic should be all we need for happy.

RE: Culture slider? I hope we never have to move research off 100%.
Culture is nice, but we can't prioritize it.

RE: Forest chop. We will probably want to chop 1 for the GLib, but it should be the one in our FC (grass/river). This will need to be a cottage pretty soon anyway.

I started a test game with the latest start posted. A few milestones:
Library : turn 36
Alphabet : 46
Academy : 53
Glib : 64
Civil Service (projected) : 80

 

[MacBalt]

The theater is required to build the globe, and will also help us try to push our culture out, to maybe expand over the furs again, and the silver to the south. I'm no culture expert, but I think more is better?

It would be nice to get a theater (and very nice to get the Globe Theater ), but I think it has to be seen as a question of priorities. Drama would distract us from Literature (and the Great Library), and it isn't on the path to Civil Service like Polytheism and Priesthood are. I don't know that we can go for both Literature/Great Library and Drama/Globe Theater and still be comfortable about getting to Liberalism first. Hopefully we'll be able to trade a food resource for a happy resource soon. Even if we were able to build a theater and the Globe Theater I think it would still be a long time before we get our fur back. The Great Library brings almost as much culture (+8) as a Theater and the Globe Theater combined (+3 & +6 = +9), and it will help us get more Great Scientists to help us bulb techs like Philosophy & Education. (Plus Literature will unlock the National Epic NW, which could help us bulb those techs even faster.)

EDIT: Oops, cross-post with WT.

 

[MacBalt]

I started a test game with the latest start posted. A few milestones:
Library : turn 36
Alphabet : 46
Academy : 53
Glib : 64
Civil Service (projected) : 80

Your library and alphabet are one turn ahead of us in the actual game. I think I might have screwed up the worker build in the first turnset and lost us that turn. It looks like I might have worked the fur instead of the deer.

EDIT: You are right, the Library here is actually six turns earlier, as is the Academy. When did you get around to building a worker using this strategy? It sure looks better by the numbers.

 

[Merum]

I guess my point is that we're not going to accomplish a whole lot at 4 pop, and we can't grow any more without happiness. We've got health out the ying-yang, and we can't grow.

Obviously I see everybody's point and don't disagree, our pop limit right now just worries me. I guess we'll have to wait to grow.

 

[WastinTime]

Your library and alphabet are one turn ahead of us in the actual game. I think I might have screwed up the worker build in the first turnset and lost us that turn. It looks like I might have worked the fur instead of the deer.

You did fine. I have the benefit of hindsight. I didn't go for Hunting at all (even though I kept the furs this game.) I think my Library is way earlier than 1 turn though. My Academy is 6 turns earlier. I like that because I could get the scientists into the mines sooner. I switched to Hered Rule/Bureaucracy on turn 80. Long before that, I was able to trade for Dye and Incense, so I don't think happy will be a problem much longer in our game. Sailing is important to open up those resource trade possibilities.

 

[BLubmuz]

Merum's points about culture are interesting (despite his permanent jet-lag):
Not only a theatre+GT resolves all our problems of happiness for the rest of the game, but they give our culture a good boost, and the furs are precious for the commerce.
Would you add the turn of anarchy we need to revolt to HR to the equation?
We can avoid that stupid civic change with the globe.
Last, but not least Drama is usually a good trade weapon.

Remember, we got 5 national wonders to build (and we're industrious):
for sure
- Globe
- national epic
- Oxford
- IW

maybe
- Wall street

 

[WastinTime]

Merum's points about culture are interesting (despite his permanent jet-lag):
Not only a theatre+GT resolves all our problems of happiness for the rest of the game, but they give our culture a good boost, and the furs are precious for the commerce.
Would you add the turn of anarchy we need to revolt to HR to the equation?
We can avoid that stupid civic change with the globe.
Last, but not least Drama is usually a good trade weapon.

Remember, we got 5 national wonders to build (and we're industrious):
for sure
- Globe
- national epic
- Oxford
- IW

maybe
- Wall street

If you're thinking Space Race, then maybe we want IW. For diplo, no.

Wall Street is also not very useful since we are 100% research.

If we time it properly, there is no extra anarchy for HR. We just share the 1 turn for Bureaucracy.

 

[BLubmuz]

If you're thinking Space Race, then maybe we want IW. For diplo, no.

Wall Street is also not very useful since we are 100% research.

If we time it properly, there is no extra anarchy for HR. We just share the 1 turn for Bureaucracy.

Yes, you're right diplo is a beeline to MM, and probably we'll skip steel. But if it comes, IW is a good boost to production if we do not have health issues and if we can have it by trade or PA.
Wall street is pretty useless, if we're not running merchants.
But revolt in the same turn for Bureau means we need to MM the size 4 for over 30 turns, while loosing production and research.

I opened the save to take a look, and i'm a bit depressed: we lost the furs (i should have miss the row, edit: now i see it, is at the beginning of Sweeta's Autolog).

Fred's power is prolly due to his knowledge of IW, but do he has Iron? or copper? JC surely has something, there's a mine in flatland near Rome.

What do you think about Music, for the great artist? it can be a sure shot if we manage to trade Alpha not before 3 turns

I propose this paths for research: (why not research Drama next turn, then switch to Poly until we can trade for it)
1) Lit - Music - Drama - and the shortest path to Bureau
2) Lit - Drama (if you miss it, i'd like to have the Globe, and i think that have no problems of happiness will help our research) then to Bureau
3) Lit - straight to Bureau

We got that damn Happy cap, and without fur and a religion we'll be at size 4 for millennia: no hope to take back the damn furs without a massive culture (64% american that tile )

Another way:
Not research Poly at all, try to trade IW for it, and keep the research on Drama until we can directly switch to Lit. It can be done in 14 turns.

More: we need to continuosly MM the city to stay at size 4, and i can't see a way to keep the 2 scientists and build the GLib at size 4.
To do this we must be at size 5 or 6.

Do we revolt to slavery when it comes on line? not much useful, IMHO with that happy cap.
There's JC with a double gold city, we can try to trade with him, once we have a trade route and if we do not arrive too late.

 

[WastinTime]

We won't be size 4 for long.
We'll get a couple religions soon for temples (not to switch to them).

We'll find a trade soon too (like the gold). Before you know it those Dye will be tradable.

Now might be a good time to build a worker before the Glib since we don't want to grow.

**Be sure we don't get to size 5**. Work a coast tile instead of crabs if you have to. It still has 3 commerce. Work it 1 turn to finish the warrior, then maybe a worker unless ya'll would be more comfortable with military. Haven't thought if we really need a 2nd worker.

Music and Drama are distractions we can't afford. Normally nothing distracts me from the fast research path. For this game, I can be easily convinced to build some defenses and delay tech progress, but non-military distractions have to be avoided.

I've been known to grab music in Diplo games, but ONLY after Education (want fast Oxford.) My test game had Education on turn 95 and Oxford completed on turn 101 (350 BC).

 

[WastinTime]

Too bad our worker is sitting in our city. He should be on the marble. Remember, road first.

 

[Sabre]

**Be sure we don't get to size 5**. Work a coast tile instead of crabs if you have to. It still has 3 commerce. Work it 1 turn to finish the warrior, then maybe a worker unless ya'll would be more comfortable with military. Haven't thought if we really need a 2nd worker.

If our ideal tile usage gives too much food, can't we just use the prevent growth button in the city screen and deselect it once we add to our happy cap (or ideally a turn before?) I use it all the time if the tiles I want to work conflict with my desire to stay at a certain pop. If we can get a better result from mm, ignore this.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Too bad our worker is sitting in our city. He should be on the marble. Remember, road first.

Don't worry, he was never idle, he's just passing thru from finishing the sheep, and in fact has a movement point left, so can make the marble this turn.

I agree with WTs beeline to win theory, the question is, of the next 3 goals (after the GL): Globe, Bureau, Oxford which is more important. Bureau seems easiest and less expensive considering it doesn't have to be built and CS is on the way anyway, but Drama is great for trade, and the lack of is just what the doctor ordered to unlock our city's potential. My only thought is to wait and see what comes up while we head toward lit/GL - if we can pick up religion and happy trades, then no problem leaving the globe til later, if not we might have to reconsider. Another thing is that we could switch to slavery and whip toward the globe, as when it is built, is gone, and we'll regrow quickly. I haven't tested that, though, it's just a thought.

The trades sound fine, although when WT says there shouldn't be enemies yet, I recall that when I dialled up KK, his reponse was "I'd advise you to stop trading with our worst enemy, Alex." Note, this wasn't a demand, but just written under his pic. I'm not sure how much to trust it, but it scares me a little in trading around. Anyway, the multiple -1s are probably worth all the new stuff right now.

 

[MacBalt]

If our ideal tile usage gives too much food, can't we just use the prevent growth button in the city screen and deselect it once we add to our happy cap (or ideally a turn before?) I use it all the time if the tiles I want to work conflict with my desire to stay at a certain pop. If we can get a better result from mm, ignore this.

I've never tried this. What does the prevent growth button look like? Can you tell me more about how it works?

I agree with WTs beeline to win theory... My only thought is to wait and see what comes up while we head toward lit/GL - if we can pick up religion and happy trades, then no problem leaving the globe til later, if not we might have to reconsider.

I agree with this. I'm convinced now that we can win this game, but being competitive with some of those other teams in the competition is going to require beelining -- big time beelining. On the other hand, going slowly and reassessing constantly is always smart.

Question: Demands for Alphabet:
One more thing: I'd still like to have a clear plan for what we do if one of the AI demands Alphabet in the next turnset. Specifically, are there any AI who we'd have to/want to give in to on this demand? If so, which ones? I'm thinking if the demand came from Washington or Alex we might have to consider giving it to them (though I'd still rather not). I'm reluctant to give in to any of the other AI though. What does everyone else think? Any advice for us, WastinTime?

 

[WastinTime]

So I've been playing my test game all the way to electricity now. I realized that there is probably no way we're going to win this as a diplo victory. Once I got over to the other continent they were mad at me. They weren't supposed to even know anyone, but some were -4 traded w/ enemies. To do Diplo, we'd really have to kill off all the civs that don't get along on our continent. Then we still have a huge problem on the other continent. I'm thinking we should target Space Race as the goal. We only need 1 or 2 good friends for that...not 12. The relationships are just too complex with 17 opponents. We cannot use religion to unite everyone because most will be Free Religion. We can only use civics for some, but we can't be both Universal Suff and Representation, etc. I think it's hopeless unless we get very offensive. Space will be easier. Luckily we would play the same game so far, but soon may have to change. After Education, we'll need a plan.

 

[WastinTime]

RE:trading Alpha. I'm thinking we give it to them. There is no way any AI can beat us to liberalism. Also, if we go Space Race (see above). We actually want the AI to move along. We should probably give it to everyone...but not on the first turn.

The other thing I noticed in my test game was that almost everyone (except Mansa and maybe 1 or 2 others) quit trading tech with me. More will trade if we get them Pleased. And more will trade if we keep them up with us in tech so they don't "fear we are too advanced".

 

[MacBalt]

RE:trading Alpha. I'm thinking we give it to them. There is no way any AI can beat us to liberalism. Also, if we go Space Race (see above). We actually want the AI to move along. We should probably give it to everyone...but not on the first turn.

The other thing I noticed in my test game was that almost everyone (except Mansa and maybe 1 or 2 others) quit trading tech with me. More will trade if we get them Pleased. And more will trade if we keep them up with us in tech so they don't "fear we are too advanced".

Test games can clarify things nicely sometimes. The reasons behind changing to Space Race sound good to me. It also seems to fit better with the "Permanent Alliances - Enabled" part of the game setup. I was wondering about that before. (Btw, Let me know if you'd like the test game tweaked in any way if you think you might want to try another round.)

And now we are actually going to consider feeding 17 Deity AIs techs to get them to research faster! Never would have predicted doing that back when I accepted BLubmuz' invitation to join. Now it actually sounds like a plausible idea. Saddle up boys, it's almost time to try to ride the whirlwind!

 

[Sabre]

I've never tried this. What does the prevent growth button look like? Can you tell me more about how it works?

It's one of the buttons in the governor part of the city screen. Basically once you toggle it you're city won't grow when the food fills. The food bar remains full and the city pop stays as is until you turn off the growth prevention. Then, on the next turn you will grow and everything goes back to normal. It's kind of a growth pause thing and it's pretty handy in certain situations.

I agree we should keep our minds open to other victory conditions, though if any team can pull off a diplo win they are going to be in great shape for a trophy. I've only played a few diplo games and none of them were nearly as complicated as this game will end up.

About Alphabet demands, we should really just hope they don't happen. I would lean towards just giving it since an early war dec would be more costly than giving up Alphabet. If we research Lit or Drama/Music next I imagine we'll be trading Alphabet soon anyway so we could also trade those techs.

 

[greatbeyond]

After Reviewing the last 4 pages I have these observations.

Why is the Globe Theatre important?
With this there isn't any unhappiness. Each religion (with a Temple) gets us only 1 Happy Face. Each Luxury gives only 1 happy face. The GT can be completed very quickly, if you factor in the comparable time of building a Temple for each religion and the fact that with Temples and Lux resources, the best we can hope to do is an additional 4 - 6 happy faces in the early going. I hear you saying that is all we need for now, but think long term. You will see that happiness becomes less of a factor that health. We can wait to build this after we get the Great Library.

Research - Literature then Drama. The Great Library has to be a priority

Builds - A worker can be useful if we have work for it to do, however I think by the time we build one, he won't be that busy. A better thought might be to either build an Archer (if we trade for Archery) or a Barracks so that our Archers can start with +20% city defense

When you say Friendly AI list, are you referring to those who do not have the aggressive trait?

Stopping Trading - Does anyone know if this has a 10 turn duration (the "you stopped trading with us"), and is it the same as canceling Open Borders?

WT - Post #331 - which file did you find this in? I spent about 2 hours nosing around the Python and "C" files and found several of interest, but I don't remember seeing this. I did find the code for "Attitude Change" which shows the "scoring goes from -100 (Barbs always have) to 100 (Human always has). Three of the factors it uses are: rank difference, Attitiude, and "I" (being I would assume a random factor. I also found Code for "declare War" and "War Plan". Unfortunately I am not well versed in Python or "C" and there are so many nested functions, I didn't have time to figure it out.

Post#336 - It is important to remember that any test games, if they don't contain the same Civs in the same locations, really aren't applicable to this one. As I stated before I can bring my test game up to speed to the current condition. This would be helpful for testing trade strategies. However, it takes quite some time and it is a waste of my time, if we keep speeding ahead. I know it is difficult to play slow, but I can recall lots of times where I rushed into GOTMs and made poor decisions.

Type of Win - WT is very correct when he states that a Diplo win will be very tough. I was not able to pull it off in any of my testing, however I do concede that someone who knows how to fine tune relations may be able to do it. If we have ASOKA (or another Culture powerhouse)for a PA, it may be worthwhile to try for a Culture win. Otherwise, Space Race sounds like the best bet, as with our accelerated research we can keep our partner right up with us.

I will also examine the save file in the morning to see what else can be learned.

 

[Merum]

Honestly, I'm not sure a space race will be fast enough to compete for a laurel.

 

[dutchfire]

I would be fine with building the Globe Theater, I just think that researching Drama would be a waste. With some luck, we can get it in trade though.

On "We fear you are becoming too advanced"
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=206578

Friendly civs will never shun you for tech whoring.

Your potential trading partner will shun you when both of these conditions are met:
you or your trading partner are in the top half of the scoreboard (including dead civs).
and

the number of techs that your trading partner remembers that you have received from someone else exceeds the NoTechTradingThreshold of this trading partner.

So as long as we're in the lower 50% of the scoreboard, we won't have a problem with it.