SGOTM 07 - Fifth Element

What did you do at this point in your test games Sweetaschon?
Funnily enough, in the games I won (and lost, actually) I never used it! I seemed to have enough building enabled specialists, not to mention GPP from wonders, and concentrated on production to build everything quickly - even gold and science. This was especially helpful for rolling the AI in the interests of a PA. :devil:
 
Funnily enough, in the games I won (and lost, actually) I never used it! I seemed to have enough building enabled specialists, not to mention GPP from wonders, and concentrated on production to build everything quickly - even gold and science. This was especially helpful for rolling the AI in the interests of a PA. :devil:
Yeah, I kind of suspect WT is going to say something like this too -- at least until we are able to grow some population first. Still, if we do decide to run scientists, we ought to at least consider putting a relatively early National Epic into our build order too.

@Balthalion: Cities don't produce culture during anarchy (religion/civic change) did you factor that in?
I didn't, and I bet that will solve some of the problems -- good catch! Will try to re-work the figures tonight, but no rush because it's not really critical for our game now anyway, I'm afraid. Gotta run now.
 
I did find something to criticize, but it wasn't how you played, Sabre, it's our plan. "to build the GLib, use the most hammer-rich tiles,". It didn't even occur to me that we'd stop working the crabs. I figured this just meant work the stone/marble. I see this as a mistake. We can switch back now to crabs and CoL goes from 11T to 8T. We're giving up 9 beakers/turn to get only 8 hammers/turn (of our 45 hammers/turn). That could only delay the Glib 1 turn at most. Not worth the beaker loss.

We're going to growing constantly (hopefully). We need that granary. Normally that would be next for sure, but because I also want to survive this. I agree on Barracks. (and Balth pointed out the lost hammers). I don't think we'll need the temple next because we should get the silver or we can trade for gold, right? Maybe we should road the sheep to trade for it?

Religion: Refuse to convert. Having everyone Pleased is the goal. To that end, we should consider gifting a few more techs soon. No point in having a couple AI get way ahead of the others.
EDIT: I think getting Washington Pleased would be first priority. It significantly lowers his probablility to attack.

I'd plan to revolt to Bureau/HR always on the first turn Bureau is ready. Ya'll already pointed out Caste is not needed. I'm one of the few people who rarely, if ever, uses slavery. We will never want to lose population.

I also rarely lightbulb, especially this early. If I did, it would not be for Philo and it would not be 2 in Edu, just 1 in Edu can be worth it though. The best reason to do this if you think you're going to lose the race to liberalism. I don't think there is any chance we will lose that race, so the best option may be to settle that GS. I agree, the earlier Oxford sounds good though. Best to wait until it pops out to decide.
 
I did find something to criticize, but it wasn't how you played, Sabre, it's our plan. "to build the GLib, use the most hammer-rich tiles,". It didn't even occur to me that we'd stop working the crabs.
Nor to me.
I meant:
- continue to work 2 crabs, or crabs+marble (same gold) while keeping the 2 scientists on.
- after the GS pops, *while* working the 2 crabs, work marble and stone, switching from time to time from 1 crab to a forest-plain-hill, to put some more hammers on GLib.

Of course, if we can grow to size 5 thanks to incense i guess we can work 2 crabs, marble and stone and at size 5 also the plain hill, or the sheep if we want to get close to the limit (6, for now).

I thought this was too much pedant, i hope i was right (was i ?).

Me too rarely switch to slavery, as my older temmates know i'm not too good in whipping. Sometime i do, but with a religious leader, for few turns.
Sure like hell, i avoid it in BtS.

Anyway, revolt to caste can be useful if it comes for free with Bureau and the other civics to change.
Pacifism? it only works with a religion, so...
 
In general, we do not want to found a religion, ie do not use a GS to pop Philo (if we are the first ones to get it). If we found Taoism it will not spread quick enough to convert other Civs enough to offset the hit in relations. We also need to check and make sure we are not the first ones to get COL and found Confucianism for the same reasons.

Full steam ahead to Education. The boost that Oxford gives shouldn't be underestimated. In one game I went research to the max using the GL, Oxford, Monasteries, Academy, and research friendly civics to pull ahead of every other Civ by a substantial margin early on. This allowed me to give away techs to buy positive relations. As part of this strategy, I held off learning Sci Method to keep up my research pace, until I had no other option than to research it.

Worker actions ( not in any order) road the sheep so it can be traded, Quarry the stone so that when we get set to build a wonder that requires it, we don't have to wait, road over to the Iron - don't Mine it yet, let's see how our culture holds up.

Builds - a Temple allows us to grow to size 6 and leads to the Monastery. It is either this first or a Barracks. Unless we get the Silver or trade for another "happy" resource first, I am leaning towards the Temple first, If anyone decides to attack we don't have enough defense to make it a contest. Then unless we are ready for another Wonder, we should build a Granary (for health and faster growth) or Aquaduct (for health)

I keep seeing reference to making war on someone. I tried ~8 games using different war plans: attack as soon as we got Copper, wait until Iron, wait until we got a generation ahead in units (Maces Vs Axes), wait until we had Riflemen Vs Longbowmen/Maces/Cats. In all these tests, while we may have gained an initial advantage, even wiping out one Civ, the tide was quickly turned and we became overwhelmed. Military Alliances were signed against us and virtually no one wanted to help (even with excellent relations). Even though they couldn't take our capital, they pillaged all our improvements and we lost Pop and production, losing our Tech edge. If we do choose to make war it should be only when we either have a PA with a very strong partner, or a dogpile situation where the only gain we would probably get would be improved relations.

National Epic is important for it's Culture and the 100% GP boost. It's potential doesn't become maximized until we have a bigger population base and run a Caste system. It can probably wait until we get the GT. With our Civ bonus,
Stone and Marble, and our advanced teching, we can get virtually any wonder before the AI from now on. If you want one though, you have to prioritize it, fiddling while Rome burns is not a good strategy.

Do not do anything to slow the building of the GL. Shaving one turn off COL is not worth the chance that someone gets Lit and rushes with a GE the turn before we complete it.

My guess is Elizabeth or Isabella will get Lit next. Isabella is more likely to demand it.

Checking out the Demographics screen should sober us up a little. We are, at best average with all other Civs, with the exception of Life expectancy and Imports.

Asoka has two of the Five largest cities: Delhi - size 11 and Bombay - size 8
 
In general, we do not want to found a religion, ie do not use a GS to pop Philo (if we are the first ones to get it). If we found Taoism it will not spread quick enough to convert other Civs enough to offset the hit in relations. We also need to check and make sure we are not the first ones to get COL and found Confucianism for the same reasons.

I disagree with this and think it's a non-factor. Just because you found a religion doesn't mean you have to convert to it. We should not consider this in our research planning, imo.

Also, we should trade lit around when we get to within a couple turns of GLib completion... get something for it before it's demanded from us. Watch for a GE to be born in the meantime, obv.
 
We also need to check and make sure we are not the first ones to get COL and found Confucianism for the same reasons.

No worries there.

As to lightbulbing or not it should depend somewhat on how long a game this projects to be. Right now it looks to be a really long game. A settled GS could come in handy much more than some early techs. Or just rest them till something like astro comes available for bulbing.
 
I agree, founding a religion is a good thing. Good culture boost. I always pray I get first to Confuc. It's usually 50/50, but with this crowded map, I think we'll get it. Usually the way it's lost is the Oracle builder takes CoL.

A GE can't just appear out of nowhere. Only the AI with the pyramids could get one this early. Are they even built yet? No one hardly has alphabet either much less Lit. No worry here.

Road to Iron: I'd bet Liz will make most of this road for us. Let's keep an eye on her worker and see if we can benefit.

Wars: When I talk about starting a war, I'm not talking about joining the war. We just get everyone else fighting. We'll get a -1 for bringing a war against an AI, but not the -3 for declaring war. I prefer not to break the peace right now, but if a war breaks out, we should consider bribing others to join in.

No need to rush the Lit trade either. We have a ton of tech and are going to get more fast. We're just waiting around for the AI to get cranking. I would like the AI to demand tech. I would also prefer they demand lit and not CoL, or CS, etc.
 
I do not see any counterside to found a religion, Tao mainly, 'cause it comes late, when "les jeux son fait".
Don't worry about CoL/Confu: perhaps you missed it from my TS report, but some unknown AI used Oracle for CoL.
If we manage to stay away from a religion, the culture boost for a Holy city is nice, and this can be a good reason to bulb Philo.
Yes Pyramids are built by unknown.
:gripe: Hey, more attention to the TS reports, please :nono:
 
I will out of contact most of Sat-Sunday. Hopefully next TS will get underway before then.

I had a chance to run a Diety - Tiny - Space - OCC game. I re-claimed my HOF spot with a 1515 AD launch. This was only 3 opponents, but it was a good refresher on how to approach the game. Anyone else try one of these yet? I think the key to being fast is giving your PA partner some extra space.
 
Can we really gift away CS? that's a pretty huge tech that the AI loves to use. If there was any one we judiciously kept for ourselves it has to be that one right?

Yea, that one is hard to give away. It's not too bad with 10 AI to trade with. If they've already cut us off from tech trade, we can give it if we've had it for a while.
 
I had a chance to run a Diety - Tiny - Space - OCC game. I re-claimed my HOF spot with a 1515 AD launch. This was only 3 opponents, but it was a good refresher on how to approach the game. Anyone else try one of these yet? I think the key to being fast is giving your PA partner some extra space.
I think Deity is too much for me, but i can give it a try, if i can have some help. Of course i guess gems or gold in fat cross ae mandatory, are they? PA enabled? yes, i suppose. Mansa on Warlords?
BtW how did you manage that >600k on that gauntlet? i barely arrived to 100k. Perhaps i finished too soon?

knockin wood, don't sale the bear's fur before have killed the bear... we yet don't know if we survive 'til CS.
 
Pacifism? it only works with a religion, so...
Whoops! You are right -- guess I'm showing a bit too much of my stupid side again... :blush: (I probably shouldn't mention that one GOTM I had where I ran pacifism for about fifty turns without adopting any state religion. ;))

I also rarely lightbulb, especially this early. If I did, it would not be for Philo and it would not be 2 in Edu, just 1 in Edu can be worth it though. The best reason to do this if you think you're going to lose the race to liberalism. I don't think there is any chance we will lose that race, so the best option may be to settle that GS. I agree, the earlier Oxford sounds good though. Best to wait until it pops out to decide.
Until about ten days ago I would have always just assumed that if I tried to play Diety without lightbulbing everything in sight I could simply expect to lose the race to liberalism hands down. :p Even the articles I've read all recommend lightbulbing Philosophy for its trade value. But that is not to say I'm disagreeing. Far from it. If we can get to Liberalism first without bulbing anything, then great. I'm fairly flabbergasted, but, Great! :D (It wouldn't be the first time I've been flabbergasted by our progress in this game!) I agree with what others have said about founding Taoism too -- it really is neither here nor there. I was in the habit of bulbing Philosophy on our test games whether I was first to it or not -- because of its trade value and in order to get to Liberalism faster. I can see now that I need to reassess that approach though. Thanks again, WastinTime! :goodjob:

I would like the AI to demand tech. I would also prefer they demand lit and not CoL, or CS, etc.
This is an important point. We seem to get quite a relations boost by giving them what they want. I agree about not giving Civil Service away though. We should refuse any demands for that one unless there is a compelling reason not to.

Full steam ahead to Education. The boost that Oxford gives shouldn't be underestimated. In one game I went research to the max using the GL, Oxford, Monasteries, Academy, and research friendly civics to pull ahead of every other Civ by a substantial margin early on.
...
Do not do anything to slow the building of the GL. Shaving one turn off COL is not worth the chance that someone gets Lit and rushes with a GE the turn before we complete it.
...
Checking out the Demographics screen should sober us up a little. We are, at best average with all other Civs...
I agree with the first, disagree with the second, and as for the last... ahh, if I could only be "average" with Deity more often! :lol:

As to lightbulbing or not it should depend somewhat on how long a game this projects to be. Right now it looks to be a really long game. A settled GS could come in handy much more than some early techs. Or just rest them till something like astro comes available for bulbing.
Great point. I can hardly wait to get to the weekend and try some more test games! ;)

I will out of contact most of Sat-Sunday. Hopefully next TS will get underway before then.

I had a chance to run a Diety - Tiny - Space - OCC game. I re-claimed my HOF spot with a 1515 AD launch. This was only 3 opponents, but it was a good refresher on how to approach the game. Anyone else try one of these yet? I think the key to being fast is giving your PA partner some extra space.
Haven't had time to try anything like this yet, but I will... Have a great time wherever you're going. I'm sure I'll have more questions saved up by then! ;)
 
Strangely today, when he's UP, Dutchfire disappeared.
So, to take some advantage from our time zones, if anyone likes to grab the save we can swap him.
The targets and the way to arrive to them are clear, no need to repeat (i hope).

I'm strongly to LB Philo, and usually i avoid to trade it 'cause it's a prerequisite to Lib, or i trade after i'm *sure* to win the race.
Of course i don't trade paper, nor Edu until few turns to it.
Even on Deity a GS can LB Philo, but only an half of Edu: much will depend on the total science the empire produces (and we're running OCC), from the map size (maybe some advantage here) and from the level.
 
Of course i guess gems or gold in fat cross ae mandatory, are they? PA enabled? yes, i suppose. Mansa on Warlords?
BtW how did you manage that >600k on that gauntlet? i barely arrived to 100k. Perhaps i finished too soon?

You'll be fine with just 1 gem or 1 gold and some food...all on a river.

For the 600,000 score, first you need BTS. The score is approx. double.
Then you have to research fast to Medicine (for Sushi corporation).
Then it's just 150+cities with 150+ corporate executives and 70+ workboats. I spent a couple 1,000 gold/turn for a long time to pay for everything.
 
Ok, then I'd say the most odd graph to date is real ms. It's just impossible to tell what they are up to.
Looks to me like they built units. :confused: Definitely no early wonder. From the culture graph, they probably got a library about ten or twelve turns after we did. I bet they are considering their trades right now. Seems to me like they might have followed a path similar to ours, but decided to build some defensive units first. (Just a guess though, really.) If that's true, I think they might be better off in the long run than the teams that went for the early wonder.

I think someone made the point before, but eventually we have to think about getting archery for our UU. NYNY is going to ruin our mid and late game if we can't take care of it.
New York is doomed -- it is just a matter of time now. We couldn't get our fur back as quickly as we wanted, but there is no way New York can keep up with our culture over the long haul. Watch the pressure heat up on them starting at about turns 85-90. (Oh, and we did get archery in one of BLub's trade rounds.)

If Washington really doesn't have metals, as it now appears, then hopefully he'll be the initial target for Alex or some other nut-job on our continent. That would be great for us IMHO, as it would both eliminate the cultural pressure coming from Washington (the city) and maybe let us quietly join in with the Hindu "good guy club" and further improve our relations in those quarters. We don't need to bother with attacking New York militarily as our culture will do the job much more cleanly while at the same time insuring that we get what we want without pissing off our other Hindu friends. ;)
 
Ok, so plan for next 10 or so turns is: (NOTE:NOT FINAL meant to be jumping off point)

-Finish GL working max hammers (TBD, working crabs proposed and looking at thread seems to have majority of comments so far)
-Attempt to gather more :-) by way of resource trade each turn
-Continue CS beeline after GL working max commerce
-Use overflow from GL to start and then finish Temple.
-Accept all demands save religion swaps and swaps that might cause anarchy
-Monitor AI relations with Washington and us closely
-Worker moves? Road spam?
 
No, I thought we agreed to move back to the Crabs immediately, not after GLib

Also, Liz will probably put a road on our sheep for us. But maybe we don't wanna wait for that.
 
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