SGOTM 07 - Fifth Element

[culdeus]

You know this OCC leaves lots of turns with hardly anything to do. Wars in a OCC diety environment have led to nothing but setbacks for me. I haven't really been able to find a particularly good reason to invade anyone yet.

If someone really executes a conquest on this variant I will bow down.

 

[MacBalt]

I'm GMT -7, in Arizona. (No daylight savings time here, so it will always be GMT -7.)

Schedule
Start files for each team will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page at midnight, server local time, at the start of April 24.

Hmm... So what is "server local time," I wonder? Does that mean we'll have access to the save file at Midnight, GMT, on Wednesday night/Thursday morning? Midnight GMT would be 12-7= 5:00 PM Wednesday here in Arizona, right? Even if it is available that early, I won't be able to get it until about 7pm, but will do my best to get a screenshot up as quickly as possible.

I'll work up another game plan proposal tomorrow, but for now I think we've all agreed on something like this:


Turn 0 (Part B):
Move Warrior 1SW (into blue circle).
Get screenshot and save the game.
Post the screenshot ASAP and re-evaluate our position with the team.


One question: Moving the warrior will probably only reveal 4 more tiles. Settling in place will reveal the entire BFC. I can't think of much that could tempt me away from the crabs and the coast to a postion where we'd be landlocked in a OCC continents game where we'll never be able to build even a workboat. I guess maybe an irrigated corn next to an irrigated wheat might make the choice a little more interesting, but... Well, I suppose we're not in any rush anyway, so why not just do two iterations. The second will probably end up looking something like this:


Turn 0 (Part B):
Settle in place on PH.
Get screenshot and save the game.
Post the screenshot and take time for more testgames and team discussions.


How does that sound to everyone? Do we need a vote or something, captain?

 

[Sabre]

Woo - miss a weekend, miss a lot! Lots of great discussion here.

Your plan sounds good to me Balthalion. I agree that there is probably not much that could be worth moving the settler. Moving south loses both crabs and their much needed food/commerce. Moving west loses a crab and the furs and would be a blind move since the warrior can't reveal any of the tiles.

I'm also in the no Pyramids camp. I built them in my test game (still need to take another shot at that) and when I went to revolt I had to sit and think if I really wanted Representation or if the extra happiness of Hereditary Rule (assuming we have 4-5 defenders in Beijing) would be better. Other than the initial push for an academy, I wasn't sure how many specialists we would run and how much the extra science would help. I chose Representation, but didn't make it long enough into the game (overwhelming attack from the Mongols) to come to a definite conclusion. Unless Representation is really useful I don't want to delay the progress on our goal, especially if it means we might miss an early academy.

Skipping the Pyramids might also allow us to build stuff we might otherwise be tempted to put off like a barracks or a granary.

I like the idea of going for a Diplomatic win. Any kind of combat victory would be extremely tough on this map. All those capitals filled with units, combined with large groups of religion buddies eager to take our valuable city site would make any kind of aggressive behavior hard. An alliance would probably be necessary, requiring techs that limit how quickly this could be done.

I'll take another stab at the test game now, bypassing the Pyramids (and trying to avoid getting war decced ) and see how it goes.

 

[Sweetacshon]

I'm happy enough if you settle and then post a ss. In fact, if nothing out of the ordinary happens, maybe you could play on to the end of fishing/ scouting warrior finds something. Just a suggestion.

 

[Merum]

so why not just do two iterations.

We can do one or the other, but to do both would be a violation of SGOTM rules. So, we have to decide which to do. In this case, I'd move the warrior.

Edit: Sabre, I grew up in Rochester.

 

[MacBalt]

You know this OCC leaves lots of turns with hardly anything to do. Wars in a OCC diety environment have led to nothing but setbacks for me. I haven't really been able to find a particularly good reason to invade anyone yet.

If someone really executes a conquest on this variant I will bow down.

I was looking for some help understanding Diety level earlier today and stumbled across an interesting article in the war academy. The article is called "Diety - OCC Challenge Strategy." (Well-spotted, eh? ) It sobered me up a bit. This is going to be a difficult game however we manage it. It's almost like to play effectively on Diety I have to forget almost everything I've learned about playing civ at other levels.

Some of the strategies we've already discussed using are recommended in the article. The most eye-opening new idea (for me, at least) the author (Phyacis) put forward was to recommend building the Globe Theater as soon as possible in order to avoid all happiness problems. (Whipping, you say? Our city's drones LOVE the lash! ) With no happiness problems, the appeal of the Pyramids fades a little bit more. And the good news gets even better: we can trade any and all happiness resources we get for much more desperately needed food resources. We'll be able both to grow our population a little higher and to endear ourselves to our trading partners a little bit more. No need for Notre Dame or any other happines wonder, but the Hanging Gardens (which never obsoletes) is looking better and better to me -- maybe even better than the Great Library, which fades with Scientific Method.

Here are some other passages I found particularly relevant. You can find the whole article here if you want to read more. (Note, the version tag is 1.52, so some of the information given might have changed a bit.)

On Choosing a City Site:

Spoiler :

The ‘ideal’ location

All other things being equal you want as much food as possible. Forget about happiness resources, food resources are much more valuable.
Build on a hill. This is not optional. Typically you will fight outnumbered and often out-teched - you will need the hill defense bonus. If it’s by freshwater even better of course.

Coast is fine if you meet the above 3 hill/4 forest production requirement - there is a definite advantage in having some of your food unpillagable by land forces and vice versa.

On Workers and Improving Tiles:

Spoiler :

This is going to sound radical, but you don’t need a worker much before 1ad (more specifically when you get feudalism), and you sure don’t want to chop any trees. Trees are un-pillageable production. They slow enemy horses & tanks down, and give you health bonuses (health will be your limiting growth factor for 95% of the game) Three hills and 4 forests (assume we built on one hill, so really 2 production hills) will be enough to pump out a modern unit every turn, once optimized. If you cant resist the urge to make a worker before then don’t ever automate him - or he'll plant girly cottages over your fine manly trees before you know it.

Don't develop tiles at all unless they have a resource on them (i.e. Don't even put a road there). Ideally we want trees everywhere in the fat cross, and any development will stop them growing on empty tiles. Ditto, avoid the temptation of chopping forests on hills to build mines, as the AI loves to pillage, bomb, sabotage and generally destroy your land – you don’t want to have to park a SAM on every tile later – it’s bad enough trying to guard the 3-4 resource tiles you’ll probably have.

Feel free to develop sea food resources

On WONDERS:

Spoiler :

World Wonders

On deity this refers to you wondering how the f*ck the AI can build them so fast. You can sometimes go all out and get one, but you’ll cripple yourself too badly in other areas by doing so. However, if you're below 100% science feel free to put some hammers into each wonder as it becomes available, then use that cash to keep science at 100%.

On Trading Technology:

Spoiler :

Once you get alphabet start trading as much as you can. Any trade puts you better off than when you started it. Plan ahead though, you cant trade bronze working till 1 turn after mining, iron working till 1 turn after bronze etc - so Don't trade your assets away too cheaply on the first round.

All other things being equal, trade with the most backward nations first (want everyone close together in score, and want the latest techs from the lead researchers not the old techs from them). You ideally want to plan 5-10 trades ahead. Think of it as a game within a game – your goal is collect every tech, even though some appear initially un-obtainable.

Leave your scientist specialists in place and research drama next. Monarchy will be a tempting alternative but has a much lower trade value as every AI will have it by the time you do, whereas drama (which you want early for globe theatre anyway) is much easier to trade for other techs...

...

Once you get currency or paper Don't be afraid to trade techs for cash whenever you need it, and maps if you haven't got around to making a scout yet. Often by selling a tech cheaply for whatever gold a few civs have you can get enough to trade the tech and gold to an advanced civ for another tech.

Don't expect a fair deal from the AI. They'll want to rip you off on each trade offering say a 1200 beaker tech for a 1800 beaker tech. This is a huge plus in your favor, as it severely limits how much they trade amongst themselves. You can trade a tech to Civ-A and contrary to popular opinion he wont give it to Civ-B until Civ-B can offer fair value for it. Meanwhile you can trade it to 5 civs taking a loss on each deal but adding up to a large net gain. Note however that sometimes you can get them to increase their offer fairly significantly or at least throw in their map and any cash they have. In the early game ultimately you want to take whatever deal they offer - because you'll hopefully get 5 other deals for the same tech, and often some deals from the techs you got in trade. Note you want to avoid techs which the AI beelines for - as they will have no trade value.

Using Politics to Win on Diety

Spoiler :

Politics

This is where the game will be won or lost at deity. It’s the one area where you can compete with the AI.

Decisions which demand you side with Civ A or Civ B
-“declare war on x”
Only ever agree to a war if it's your PA target who's asking

-“stop trading with x”
This boils down to knowing who you want to keep happy. You literally want to write down a pecking order of who you least want to annoy, working downwards to folks you don’t care about annoying, and then use it to accept/deny every request based on siding with the higher person on your list - consistency is key here.

Decisions where an AI just wants something
-give us tech x
-give us 100 gold
-give us resource z
-convert to civic x
-convert to religion y

These are an easy way to increase relations and are typically worth agreeing to. The one exception to this is if they ask for an expensive tech (unless its your PA target civ asking). If you agree to supply a resource be aware you can cancel it after 10 turns, and often charge them for it at that point.

Getting a Permanent Alliance:

Spoiler :

As early in the game as possible, pick one leader, who's borders are not going to be near yours anytime soon (say by 1200ad) and do anything they ask. Yes! for 4 thousand years you get to be their biatch. Aside of agreeing to their demands (even going to war) the main task here is to always monitor which civ they dislike the most - and Don't trade with that civ. Definitely never trade with anyone they are at war with. By 1200 or 1300 ad you want them totally happy with you. This will often require that you spend time using their favorite religion and/or favorite civic. As soon as its available, ask them for a defensive pact. If you somehow upset them and there is a red item or two you may need to give them a gift (trade techs with others for a gift they Don't have, or sell techs to others for a cash gift. One decent tech or around 800 gold is usually enough to add +2 or more to your relations at this point.

The PA stage can be difficult if you've never got a PA before, so to walk through an example:
Lets say you want a PA with Catherine, because you like the way she shakes her hair at you and her lands are far away from yours.

First, from 4000bc do everything she asks you to do. Wars, trades, giving her tech, doesn't matter - just suck it up for now.

Second, from 4000bc always check to see if she's at war before you trade with someone (this hurts relations real bad and I cant find any trick to having it forgiven).
Third, around 500ad start using hereditary rule (her favorite civic).
Fourth, around 500ad, if available, convert to her religion.
Obviously monitor your friendliness and adjust the above as required. Be aware that sometimes civs will drop their religion as soon as they get the free religion civic available around this time - so Don't rely too much on the religious element of the modifiers.
Fifth, as soon as available get a defensive pact in place (find a gift to bribe with if its red)
Sixth, after 20 turns or so start checking if a PA is available, and plan to have a gift ready for a final bribe just incase its red (once the PA is signed you will both get all the other parties techs, so any tech gift here isn’t being wasted).
If a third party offers you a defensive pact then don’t take it! If someone declares war on them you’ll declare war automatically on that person and break your DP with your target civ, possibly losing relations – in a worst case scenario you could end up at war with your target, which would be er “strategically sub-optimal, Sir”.

Assuming you’ve been nice to the target since the start of the game and are at +10-15 relations you’ll find they agree easily to the DP and PA regardless of how weak or technologically backwards you are – as they like you more than anyone else.

So, you now have a PA. Things to note:

1. You can now ask the AI for any of their resources and they will give them to you. (so Don't take their only coal and trade it away!).

2. You can see the ai's cities (check out that growth and production!).

3. You can see what the ai is researching and ask them to change it.

4. Your research is added together (makes sense to always research the same thing as them for faster times).

5. Your relations with other AI's has just dropped somewhat. They’re all somewhat miffed that you made a PA with someone else.

6. You probably now have access to bronze, iron, coal and maybe oil for the first time. If you have coal and railroads Don't forget to railroad your lumbermills at this point.

7. Team projects are now gray if one of you is building it (hint: build the pentagon yourself as soon as available, if your pet AI starts it and allocates to some backwater dump of a city it really sucks if they lose that city in a war).

8. The AI will insist on giving you any spare happiness resources they have, even though you don’t need them. If you refuse they will keep asking until you go insane, so you might as well just take them when offered and be done with it.

 

[MacBalt]

We can do one or the other, but to do both would be a violation of SGOTM rules.

Oops! Don't want to do that. I should probably read these rules. Do you know where I can find them? Does the rule in question here prohibit stopping more than once in a single turn to discuss things, or is it more than once in a turnset, or what?

If we can't stop more than once to discuss then I think I'd rather take Sweetacshon's suggestion and wait until after we get fishing.

 

[Merum]

This boils down to knowing who you want to keep happy. You literally want to write down a pecking order of who you least want to annoy, working downwards to folks you don’t care about annoying, and then use it to accept/deny every request based on siding with the higher person on your list - consistency is key here.

This is critical. I can recall a particular incident in SGOTM3 where an unfortunate civics change caused us to lose the game (maybe we would have lost anyway, it's debatable). We need to be aware of the political situation at all times, so we can make the correct decisions when other civs come to us asking for (or demanding) things of us. There are no do-overs on those decisions, and the impacts can be very long-lasting.

 

[Merum]

You can stop at any point, including multiple times per turn, but once a unit is moved or some other action taken it's irrevocable. So taking the two different paths is what violates the rules in this scenario. Also, it's not kosher to upload multiple saves per turn, so if you do stop for discussion with the intent to continue the turn, you need to post screenshots rather than upload the save. The rules can be found here.

EDIT: I should mention that these rules are on top of normal GOTM rules, which all apply.

 

[MacBalt]

You can stop at any point, including multiple times per turn, but once a unit is moved or some other action taken it's irrevocable. So taking the two different paths is what violates the rules in this scenario. Also, it's not kosher to upload multiple saves per turn, so if you do stop for discussion with the intent to continue the turn, you need to post screenshots rather than upload the save.

Okay, that makes sense. But I was only planning to post screenshots anyway. I'll read the rules tomorrow, but I'll be safe if I move the warrior, take a screenshot, and save the game on my own computer, right? (Or do we play off a server or something?) Then I post the shot and we discuss. Later I open the saved game (the one after the warrior has moved), settle, take another screenshot, save again, and repeat the posting/discussion time -- right? I understand the basic rule of no repeats, re-dos or alternative paths once a move has been made.

Edit: I'm sorry. I just re-read my earlier post and it is a bit unclear. By two "iterations" I didn't mean to suggest playing the turn twice -- just stopping in between playing the first and second parts of the turn. My bad.

 

[Merum]

Ah that's where I misunderstood then. You can move the warrior, then stop and post screenie. Then we can move the settler. I thought your intent was to move the warrior, then go back to the start save and move the settler with the warrior back in his original spot. My bad.

We don't play from a server, we just store our end of turn saves there. When it's your turn, you can save to your PC as many times as you like. It's recommended to set your autosave to every turn in case of a crash.

 

[MacBalt]

I looked up "iteration" and I think your read was correct, so I'll accept the "my bad" this time.

Iterate: "to repeat... to utter or do again or repeatedly." (Websters)

Oh well, if that the only mistake I make this game, I'll be overjoyed!

It's recommended to set your autosave to every turn in case of a crash.

This I have already done... and now I have pages and pages of testgame autosaves clogging up my drive. Better clean things up a bit before the real thing rolls out.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Also, it's not kosher to upload multiple saves per turn, so if you do stop for discussion with the intent to continue the turn, you need to post screenshots rather than upload the save.

I interpreted the discussion as relating to saves uploaded to the server, as opposed to posted in this thread. I am certain (overstated ) that the team is able to assess a save mid turn-set if necessary.

 

[Sweetacshon]

BTW, that OCC thread was a good find, Balth, but the point about no early worker, no improvements, and no wonders might not apply to an ind, civ with stone and marble in BFC.

 

[MacBalt]

BTW, that OCC thread was a good find, Balth, but the point about no early worker, no improvements, and no wonders might not apply to an ind, civ with stone and marble in BFC.

Yeah, I know... but it makes me feel a little better about not getting a worker out until relatively late in our "Alphabet" game variant. The article is really written from a Domination Win perspective, so not everything is relevant for us. The part from that quote I'm still pondering is what the author says about forest tiles. I'm thinking about whether if it might be better to save some of those trees instead of chopping them all for wonders. Don't know... just wondering... (no pun intended... )

 

[dutchfire]

I'm on GMT +2, as is BLubmuz, the servers are in Texas, USA.

Uploading saves here mid-turn is okay IIRC, but the GOTM server doesn't like it, so you can't officially upload it.

A small map with 18 opponents is recommended for your first attempt, if you haven’t beaten deity before or if you haven't played a one city challenge before.

How lucky are we?

But the article seems to imply you'll almost always be at war. I thought we were hoping for something more peaceful.

 

[BLubmuz]

What Balth posted in his #82 for his turn 0 is what i meant.
I don't think we not settle on that PH, but we need to see all the possibilities.
I know that our TSs will not much busy: not settlers, no city locations, hopefully not wars. But we must be very care about the relations with the AI, and watch frequently how their relations evolve, and planning ahead what demands accept and what refuse.
Also we can closely watch our city, to avoid stupid things by the Governor.

One note about me: i'm suffering for some problem to the gallbladder, and tonight i was to the hospital for a colic. The discovery is recent, i thought i have a gastritis.

I hope i can schedule a surgical intervention for June without any further problem, but if it happens that i disappear for some day, you'll know why.

 

[Merum]

Blub, I had my gall bladder yanked out about 6 years ago. If you take care of it quickly, it's no big deal. If you do what I did and get pancreatitis, it sucks a lot more. Take care of yourself and get that sucker cut out ASAP. I don't miss mine.

 

[culdeus]

Yeah, playing forward a few more times on the test game + the commentary above now makes me think the -mids, while easily attainable doesn't get us much of anywhere.

The HUGE issue is health and then keeping a decent tech path to prevent being overrun which happens a lot.

Not to be pessimistic, but I'd say there's a good chance that one of the laurels is of the "longest not dead" category.

That being said I think I'd like to test the "no BC Worker" strategy and see where that leads. It's worth at least figuring out where perhaps the need for the stone hookup for the HG comes in.

Other things I've learned that I think is set in stone is alpha is the absolute beeline tech. The other thing that is critical is we need to shoot that warrior out to the SE as fast as possible. No diversions in the route just draw a straight line to the opposite corner. Need to meet as many AI as possible before they settle the land and we can't get thru. OB will help, but he'll be sealed off before we get to that point.

Alpha can get lots of the trash techs. I will also test the "rush drama" strategy and perhaps drama can lead to mathematics via trade.

The tech path I intend to try for self-research

Fish->AH->W->Alpha->BW(1 turn only)->lit->drama

Trade for:
Mason-mysty-pots-sail-hunt t0
poly-med-arch?? t1 swap research to lit

Maybe trade lit for BW-Math-???
Trade drama for the moon and stars

Run 2 SS to academy after library and produce all workboat/warrior till archers can pop out.

I think I can log this well enough to see if this makes sense. There's no reason why we can't totally script an optimum 50 turns right down to the tiles worked and specific moves to make.

 

[culdeus]

Blub, I had my gall bladder yanked out about 6 years ago. If you take care of it quickly, it's no big deal. If you do what I did and get pancreatitis, it sucks a lot more. Take care of yourself and get that sucker cut out ASAP. I don't miss mine.

Yeah, second that.