SGOTM 07 - Fifth Element

[WastinTime]

I've never researched math, construction, currency, and many others. These always come in trades. Mansa will always trade.

GLib: Actually I never build this either. But it just seems too easy with marble/industrial. Could be a distraction we don't need. We could build military instead. We can skip Literature and get CS faster. I think I still vote for building the GLib though. It's a long way to Sci Meth. If we do want it, we need to go straight for it.
Hopefully we can trade for Poly. That's a tough trade sometimes.

Tech trading is a huge subject. It's more of an art than a science. Knowing what the AI will research for you next and what to trade. I would not trade with the most backward civ first as the article suggests. If they're backward, they'll trade that new tech to someone else and you lose out. The article also says that the hard bargains between you and the AI are preventing AI -> AI trades. No way. They're much more generous with each other. If they like each other, they'll gift tech too. The article tells you to collect every tech. Not good. People will stop trading with you if you have too much tech. I always avoid archery/ horseBR / Theology, etc. Even if they want to give it to me for free. I'll never forget the time I learned Agriculture from the Internet Wonder (OCC space race.) Sounds like this game we should get archery though. I normally don't need defenses.

 

[MacBalt]

The obvious issue with stopping to discuss "pop-ups" is that there's no way to get out of them to quit the game during the discussion. A player would have to leave the game running until the discussion ended.

Yeah, I was afraid of that. Never tried to save the game on a popup window before.

I like the "priority list" solution you suggest, but I think for the early game (say, until Civil Service) we're going to have to give in to every demand from everybody (except, of course, we'd still use the "priority list" for Civ 1 vs. Civ 2 demands). I just gave up on a test game where I actually made it up to within 10 turns of getting Liberalism first (well, still maybe first anyway), before that bastard Khan declared on me again. I even had rough tech parity (or clear superiority, vs most of the AI civs), an Academy, the Great Library, 1/2 of Globe Theater, and +2 to +8 relations with every known civ (including Khan! ) before the DOW. I wasn't playing carefully, so I'm sure we could improve on these results. I think the key to getting there was being everybody's "biatch" no matter what they asked me to give them. I was surprised to be able to do that and still end up being right at the top of the technology race after 500 AD.

I also did a few other things that, I think, helped:

(1) Build Order = Worker (1/2), WB, finish worker, WB, warrior, Library... (OR perhaps worker(1/2)-WB-WB-finish worker-warrior-Library would be better?)

The early worker spent time doing stupid things like mining the stone, but it wasn't pointless because I did use the 5 tile. The real benefit came after alphabet, when stuff needed to be hooked up quickly and I built a second worker to speed things up -- and then also especially when it came time to quickly chop important builds like the Great Library.

(2) I traded some lower level techs for gold to upgrade one defending warrior to an axeman. This was important when it came time to defend against Khan's first assault. There was also extra gold that allowed me to stay at 100% science the whole time.

(3) The Great Library takes four chops after mathematics (with marble hooked up). I don't know about Oxford University, but the Globe theater looked like it would take about the same to complete. That means we (might) have about enough trees around our capital to do about 3 wonders/nat'l wonders by chopping. The AI moves so fast I don't think we can win a wonder race without chopping much of the build, so we've only got maybe 2 to 4 of these to play around with. If we decide to go Great Library + Oxford + Globe, then I think we're done building wonders without a great engineer.

(4) Great Persons (& Caste System) were essential to (getting close to) getting Liberalism first. It took one GS for Philosophy (I still wasn't first to it though ) and another GS for part of Education. I was ahead by paper and several turns, but don't know if I would have made it before Liz because the AI moves so freak'n fast!

(5) One benefit of Khan's early DOW was upgraded units. It wouldn't have been enough to fend off the final assault this time, but maybe it could have been if I had built a few more catapults...

 

[MacBalt]

Hopefully we can trade for Poly. That's a tough trade sometimes.

Yeah, I've noticed that. I think we'll get it with Alphabet if there are enough AI on our starting continent though. The problem is that if it doesn't come with writing, then we'll have to start researching something else before Literature. I've been doing Drama because the other choices all seem like they'll be tradeable soon. Maybe there is a better choice? (I'd do COL, but Priesthood never comes with the "writing" trades in the test game either.)

Tech trading is a huge subject. It's more of an art than a science. Knowing what the AI will research for you next and what to trade. I would not trade with the most backward civ first as the article suggests. If they're backward, they'll trade that new tech to someone else and you lose out. The article also says that the hard bargains between you and the AI are preventing AI -> AI trades. No way. They're much more generous with each other. If they like each other, they'll gift tech too. The article tells you to collect every tech. Not good. People will stop trading with you if you have too much tech. I always avoid archery/ horseBR / Theology, etc. Even if they want to give it to me for free. I'll never forget the time I learned Agriculture from the Internet Wonder (OCC space race.) Sounds like this game we should get archery though. I normally don't need defenses.

I've noticed the AI's reluctance to trade after I've collected most techs up to about Mathematics, as you describe. I can't imagine skipping archery in this game though! With the early DOW trouble I've been having, I still feel naked with three or four archers and a couple of axemen in the capital.

Hey, what about the article's suggestion about the AI avoiding Longbowmen? It just struck me that I had feudalism in that last game where Khan attacked shortly after 500 AD, but I didn't think to bother with upgrading any archers to Longbowmen. I wonder if that would have prevented the DOW? God I feel stupid. Got to stop trying to play this game in the middle of the night.

 

[Merum]

One topic that I think we've given short shrift to here is religion. In the test game I played, my neighbors gifted me tech multiple times, usually to help me out when somebody else DoW'd me. Obviously researching a religion is not the way to go, but we should hope to get spread to us and switch to the majority religion, and stay there. It's a huge help in keeping relationships up. I got DoW'd relatively few times, and the times I did, my boy Peter was right there to hook me up with a free tech. I had relations at friendly with him and he was a PA target, but he went to FR and down to pleased with me. Then he allied with Louis and things went to hell in a handbasket pretty quickly.

 

[BLubmuz]

In my only test game, where i was wiped by Gengis on turn 98, he was pleased with me. Remember he was the most far of all the Ais on our continent.
I've looked for some help, but despite the most was pleased with me, the DoW on anyone was red (we don't like you enough).
Not a single religion spreaded in my short game.

About pop-up demands: i not sure, but it seem to remember that during an old SG, one of us saved the game when the pop-up was on, to ask to the team.
Still, what Merum said about priorities can be enough for a decision.

 

[culdeus]

I've played the test game 6 times now. 3 times I had a DOW from three different AI. Twice the numbers were so overwhelming and came so early that there was no avoiding a total loss. Once I was able to fight it off, but I was cooked at that point.

Demands come so fast for techs that if you aren't trading them away then they'll just take them anyways. I see no reason to hold back any techs at any time for any reason at all. Get what you can for them no matter how small. I'm adamant about this. It is the only thing that seems to work to hold off the AI from DOW. I'm serious when I say trading alpha for something as minimal as mysty seemed to help. Just getting a trading relationship established seems to help keep the DOW off.

We don't have any python script readers here, but if we did we would really need to look as to what can preempt a DOW.

I feel strongly that this SGOTM will not be so unfair as the test game. They might not give the AI any metal and they might put us with very few AI giving a shot at staying alive for some time. I actually predict we are sitting on metal. Probably bronze. And Iron is off to the top left making it easier to defend.

 

[culdeus]

Is there any situation where we don't

-Settle in place
-Move warrior SE
-Build warrior
-Research fishing
-Work GF
-Research AH - Build WB - Swap to working PF
-WB out
-Start 2nd WB working crabs till pop2

 

[WastinTime]

Chopping: We won't *need* to chop any forests to get Glib, Oxford, Globe. We'll probably want to speed up Glib, Oxford, but never Globe. We can't clear all of our forests. We start with the ones on grassland.

Since all of the AI are cramped for space, we should have no problem getting 1st to Liberalism. The only way they can hope to keep up with us is if we, for example, give Alphabet for Myst. Giving Alpha so soon also gives them a shot at the Glib, not that they can beat us to it. Those +trade relations fade away quickly, so it's not that wonderful to drop Alpha on everyone right away. And finally, we WANT people to demand tech. That's the easy one to give into. If we don't have anything they need, they'll ask for something else.

That leads us to demands. We can't give into most demands as I've seen suggested. Getting a +1 for switching religions gives us many -1, -2, -3 and makes us a target for war. That's on top of the anarchy turn loss. Going to war, and stopping trade is also hard to swallow depending on who it is. It's better to never open borders with the crazy bunch. Then no one can demand to cancel deals w/them. For War requests. They can only ask this if they're at war already. An AI at war will not also declare war on you. And once they've been at war, they have a worst enemy now, and it's not you. Conclusion: we should try to start wars, but not join them. I once had Monty, Nap, and Toku (and Gandhi) swirling around me fighting each other while I sat with 1 warrior. They all ganged up on Gandhi. Then Monty tried to crush everyone, but me.

I'm strongly against religion unless maybe all of our closest neighbors share it. As you've seen, the benefits are gone with FreeReligion, so it won't help get a PA or win the game.

Sometimes I'll run a turn of 0% science after alpha if I know for sure I can trade for Poly or Med. If those are founded on another continent, then you simply have to research Poly.

P.S. I'd say there's definitely metal on the tile north of our settler, so Axes come soon after alphabet.

 

[dutchfire]

Why would we want open borders anyway except for with one civ (our future PA probably)? There's not a whole lot of trade routes to be gotten, and we can't spare (m)any units to explore.

 

[culdeus]

It's a tiny map and the warrior will be obsolete so fast that it's pointless in holding him back. Will open up more tech trading partners and perhaps help pick future PA buddy.

 

[greatbeyond]

I have attached another test map with just 2 continents (slightly different configuration)

A couple more things I noticed; Tribal Villages on the default map are plentiful and in some cases within 2 tiles of a starting unit. Civs are placed as close as 4 tiles apart. Seafood is very abundant.

 

[culdeus]

I have attached another test map with just 2 continents (slightly different configuration)

A couple more things I noticed; Tribal Villages on the default map are plentiful and in some cases within 2 tiles of a starting unit. Civs are placed as close as 4 tiles apart. Seafood is very abundant.

quick note to say the stone and marble aren't forested in the real map. Messing around with this one now.

 

[Merum]

There won't be any villages on the SGOTM map. They are always removed to remove imbalances.

 

[MacBalt]

Okay team, the game is afoot! The first screenie is attached, and we found more good stuff to eat.

I did nothing but move the warrior 1SW and save the game.

 

[Merum]

My feeling is that we want both of those crabs, so it looks like a settle in place. The cows will give us extra health, because beef is yummy. I wonder what's west that's causing the other blue circle, but it's not worth the extra turns to get there to see.

 

[Sweetacshon]

I also note that the forest next to the deer is tundra. Boo. At least the cows will give us some more . Looks like settle in place. (" Merum would not have been enough characters )

 

[Merum]

Also, wherever possible, we should chop trees outside our BFC before they are covered by AI territory. Double bonus of denial of health bonus to the AI plus a few extra hammers for the good guys.

 

[BLubmuz]

deer in FC heeh
can't understand a blue circle with 4 mountains in FC
But there's a blue circle also with some ice in FC, i suppose the "Blue Circle God" became crazy with all that stuff.

perhaps the mountains can give a kind of choke point?

loosing 1 turn is affordable in normal speed, but we need 2 or 3 to find maybe nothing better than our starting point.

My vote is for settle in place.
start warrior, research fishing, send the warrior as far as possible

btw the map is surely modified, never seen so many resources so close each other... one more damn happy resource would be appreciated.

 

[dutchfire]

Settle in place.
Tundra
Fog gazing tells me there might be another mountain east of the river in the southeast. Either a mountain or a tundra.
It seems that all tiles in the BFC but the resource tiles have forests, wanna bet there's a strategic resource 1N of our capital?

 

[Sabre]

I vote settle in place.

How nice would it be to have those mountains provide a continuous wall with just the one exit?

oh, and response to Merum from a few pages back - small world, eh?

edit - BLubmuz, we still have that clear tile to the west. Grassland gems maybe?