@greatbeyond: I see you're often working high production low food/commerce tiles like the stone mine, wouldn't it be better to work the fur instead to speed up growth and research (or a grassland forest for even more growth).
SGOTM 07 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
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greatbeyond
King
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2002
- Messages
- 989
I very my strategy a lot depending on what the priority is for the moment. In these test games I have tried different approaches, if worker first - work a 3H tile to get the worker in 12 turns, if producing units and putting off workers, I go with the highest food producing tiles until I hit the happy cap. Then if I'm not going to use the whip, I rearrange what tiles I work to cut growth. Working two Crabs and the Stone and Marble with Quarries is a powerhouse, more effective I think than whipping. Once I got hunting then I hooked up the Fur and changed tiles worked to grow to Pop 5 quickly. If working both improved Crab Tiles, an improved Fur tile (1F,2H,3G) does not boost research enough to offset the increased production of 5H from stone and 4H(?)3G from Marble with a Quarry
I have tried different research paths with different production/growth strategies. So far there isn't a clear winner.
The latest suggestion; Fishing, AH, Writing, Alpha, Poly. Lit, I think is the quickest research path to the GL. With this an early worker can only work the Sheep, then for quite some time, until we get Alpha and pick up some early techs, the worker can't do anything, except for mine a hill, which we could mine the Stone and Marble until we get Masonry. Once we get Lit, we need to have a Quarry built on the Marble to cut build time in half. The problem with this route is that if anyone attacks before we get Alpha and can trade for BW or Hunting-Archery, we are sitting ducks. I have been sorely tested in my last few tests with lots of early DOW when I had good relations. I think a key may be how many units we have in our capital. With just 1 Warrior I was DOW most of the time. With 3 Warriors it seemed the AI waited. I think with the proposed build order that Balthalion made in his last post, we may have to insert a couple of Warriors after the first WB. This depends on how many AIs we meet, how close, and who they are. Questions we can't answer just yet.
I think we need to step through the first few turns (unless nothing happens) and examine each new piece of info that is revealed. I know it slows things down but I'd rather be a slow survivor than a quick victim.
Once we get Alpha, we can hopefully trade for:
1 - Masonry/Wheel to speed up our wonder building.
2 - BW or Hunting/Archery
3 - Metal Casting, IW, or Mathematics
regarding the lack of enemy borders, does the player always go first on Deity or is order of play random?
Choke points - so far none. There is a Tundra tile which opens a Gap in the Mountain range to the South. In my latest test games that is where the problem has come from. That along with slow cultural/border expansion has spelled a quick invasion route to Beijing with little or no warning. In my test games, an AI has settled just south of that gap and it can not be protected, at least not until stronger units become available. More border expansion means more notice of invading armies. In the test games, the enemy, usually Monty or GK, attacked using just Archers. Our Warriors don't have much of a chance against them.
Speaking of aggressive AIs, so far the only ones I have had problems with early in these tests are:
Monty
GK
Peter
culdeus
Emperor
I like Balth's game except the idle worker bit. I think I've got a pretty good first 40 turns and will compare to see if I can get the same output in less turns without starting a worker first. With the sheep it sort of changes things somewhat, but really the 1h vs 3c of a second crab or seafood tile is debatable as to what's needed.
culdeus
Emperor
The "sitting duck" plan is IMO the only way to put us in the running for a top 3. There's no amount of military units that can really push back an AI advance without leaving us crippled with no tile improvements (crabs gone too usually) and probably 30 turns of
with whipping and furs gone. We lose, we lose. I could always use more spoons.
culdeus
Emperor
map gazing it's obvious misfits went worker first. It's impossible to tell what trash did. Built a warrior between turns 10-20. Perhaps put off the workboat for a worker-warrior? Who knows.
greatbeyond
King
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2002
- Messages
- 989
The "sitting duck" plan is IMO the only way to put us in the running for a top 3. There's no amount of military units that can really push back an AI advance without leaving us crippled with no tile improvements (crabs gone too usually) and probably 30 turns of
We lose, we lose. I could always use more spoons.
I've got enough spoons, It's forks I need.
For the reasons above, as soon as we get Alpha, we need to get some Military techs. Hopefully we have Copper or Iron in our borders.
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
Sorry Blubmuz, I didnt mean to go too far. 
It was only a test game. I guess I just got carried away when I came to realize how far we might be able to push our advantage. 
Also, there is at least one more important thing we need to decide even before I can click enter on turn zero. Is it better to start by building a warrior or by pre-building a worker? Id like to see what Culdeus finds out in his test game, and Id like to run one more test of my own before proposing a game plan later tonight.
@ Culdeus: I dont like the worker idle business either. My next test will attempt to stick hunting back into the tech path to take advantage of the beaker discount on Animal Husbandry. I dont think it will cost us more than one turn on Alphabet, and Im hoping there might be a chance it won't cause us any delay at all.
@ Culdeus & Great Beyond: Try refusing to open borders with Khan and the other aggressive AIs. I think that may have been what kept the early DOW away in my game. I also think that removing the goody huts has slowed the AIs down a lot in this version of the test game. Were likely to have much better exchanges for writing available to us than we were led to believe from our earlier test games.
It was only a test game. I guess I just got carried away when I came to realize how far we might be able to push our advantage. Also, there is at least one more important thing we need to decide even before I can click enter on turn zero. Is it better to start by building a warrior or by pre-building a worker? Id like to see what Culdeus finds out in his test game, and Id like to run one more test of my own before proposing a game plan later tonight.
@ Culdeus: I dont like the worker idle business either. My next test will attempt to stick hunting back into the tech path to take advantage of the beaker discount on Animal Husbandry. I dont think it will cost us more than one turn on Alphabet, and Im hoping there might be a chance it won't cause us any delay at all.
@ Culdeus & Great Beyond: Try refusing to open borders with Khan and the other aggressive AIs. I think that may have been what kept the early DOW away in my game. I also think that removing the goody huts has slowed the AIs down a lot in this version of the test game. Were likely to have much better exchanges for writing available to us than we were led to believe from our earlier test games.
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
My test game went well. Got Alphabet on the same turn as before (46/47), but with Hunting included in the tech path and with the worker never being idle or doing anything completely useless: the fur, deer, & sheep are all improved instead of just the sheep, and both the stone & marble are mined. On the down side, the Library and Academy were each delayed by two turns: the Library from (38/39) to (40/41) and the Academy from (56) to (58). Also, the worker mined both the marble and the stone, each of which will still have to be quarried, but the mines were essential to keeping the Library within two turns of the other strategy. (If they dont get mined, the Library will be even later.) Since the worker would otherwise be idle anyway, I dont see any real problem with doing these double builds. Everything else looks like it would play out the same way as with the first version of this strategy. Details are attached below.
I used closed borders with the nasties again and there was no DOW through turn 59, when I stopped. I think keeping closed borders with aggressive opponents is worth considering seriously.
Hey Culdeus, did you find a faster way to get to Alphabet? If so, that might be the smarter way to go. Let me know when you can. Thanks!
Worker Strategy version #2 Game Details:
I used closed borders with the nasties again and there was no DOW through turn 59, when I stopped. I think keeping closed borders with aggressive opponents is worth considering seriously.
Hey Culdeus, did you find a faster way to get to Alphabet? If so, that might be the smarter way to go. Let me know when you can. Thanks!
Worker Strategy version #2 Game Details:
Attachments
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
Ill assume that my turnset will go up through the end of turn 15. (Im happy to play fewer (or more 
I just dont recall anyone telling me exactly how many turns Im supposed to play.
Two Questions:
1. Ill just go for peace in our time when we meet AI leaders and summarize who we met at the end of the turnset. I dont expect any other type of political demands to pop up during my turns. (The first one probably will happen at about turn 50 or so. I think we should have a very specific plan ready for handling political demands something along the lines of what Merum suggested before we get that far.)
2. Which way should our exploring warrior go, toward the gap in the mountains or toward the flood plain? Im proposing the gap route, but I really could go either way. What does the team want?
Draft Game Plan for Turns 0-15:
Okay, real life is calling tonight.
Pick it apart any way you can -- I'll change anything if it is the will of the team. I won't play again until at least 24 hours have passed unless I get a green light from everyone on the team or from our captain. 
I just dont recall anyone telling me exactly how many turns Im supposed to play.Two Questions:
1. Ill just go for peace in our time when we meet AI leaders and summarize who we met at the end of the turnset. I dont expect any other type of political demands to pop up during my turns. (The first one probably will happen at about turn 50 or so. I think we should have a very specific plan ready for handling political demands something along the lines of what Merum suggested before we get that far.)
2. Which way should our exploring warrior go, toward the gap in the mountains or toward the flood plain? Im proposing the gap route, but I really could go either way. What does the team want?
Draft Game Plan for Turns 0-15:
Spoiler :
Okay, real life is calling tonight.
Pick it apart any way you can -- I'll change anything if it is the will of the team. I won't play again until at least 24 hours have passed unless I get a green light from everyone on the team or from our captain. 
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
If we're not going to have any worker techs to speak of, then WB-warrior-WB is the proper build order, imo. Having a worker hanging around with nothing to do is just stupid. It's not really worth it to just pasture the sheep. 2 warriors should boost our strength enough in the short term to stave off a very early DoW.
I still believe that if there's a religious bloc on our landmass it makes sense to open borders with one of the AI in order to get the religion spread. I've had great luck with this.
Edit: Crossposted with Balthalion. I think the plan as stated is not too bad, although I'm going to re-read it in more detail later.
I still believe that if there's a religious bloc on our landmass it makes sense to open borders with one of the AI in order to get the religion spread. I've had great luck with this.
Edit: Crossposted with Balthalion. I think the plan as stated is not too bad, although I'm going to re-read it in more detail later.
Sounds good to me. I'll be able to check in one more time in the morning, but then I'm out for the weekend. I''m sure you all will do fine. We've definitely over-engineered these first few turns, but I like the enthusiasm.
Sabre
Cheftain
I'm going to be away this weekend also (first camping trip of the year!), so if my turn comes up before Tuesday a swap with someone would be appreciated. 
So the advantage here is getting hunting & more improvements, versus 2 turns less of library and academy? Seems like a decent trade-off.
It looks like it'll be a quiet weekend, I'll probably be offline until sunday evening.
Keeping Closed Borders with some of the bad guys seems like a good idea. That way, they can't see our defences, and might be less likely to declare war on us.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
@Balthalion
Nothing to complain, i just pointed out that everything was decided, and we need more info about the map and the closest AIs before to go further.
Probably we'll have those infos at the end of your TS, so mine is more a "c'mon, i'm curious" than else.
Also, no need to be so detailed in the TS plan, remember that every player have to put his experience in his TS, trying to follow the team plans.
And you seem to have enough knowledge of the game.
Yes, of course peace, no need to define a more detailed strategy until writing (and OB) is in.
My "curiosity" is due that if we have Monty or Alex right on our borders we can have some problem, different if we have Gandhi, or Mansa. Anyway, even those nice guys often DoW you if you are very weak or very backwards.
Some stuff i need to read with attention in this page before comment it.
edit
If i well understand the posts above, if we research Hunting we can be able to have Apha in the same turn that we can have without researching it. This is probably due to the fact that:
1) we have a bonus in the AH research for have hunting
2) we can improve furs, and work them
2 turns of delay for the library/academy are worth one less tech to trade for, and this way we need only to road the furs to have our first happy resource.
I think you can go in this way:
Fishing-Hunting-AH
15 turns are fine for the first TS, then we'll go to 10/12.
Nothing to complain, i just pointed out that everything was decided, and we need more info about the map and the closest AIs before to go further.
Probably we'll have those infos at the end of your TS, so mine is more a "c'mon, i'm curious" than else.
Also, no need to be so detailed in the TS plan, remember that every player have to put his experience in his TS, trying to follow the team plans.
And you seem to have enough knowledge of the game.
Yes, of course peace, no need to define a more detailed strategy until writing (and OB) is in.
My "curiosity" is due that if we have Monty or Alex right on our borders we can have some problem, different if we have Gandhi, or Mansa. Anyway, even those nice guys often DoW you if you are very weak or very backwards.
Some stuff i need to read with attention in this page before comment it.
edit
If i well understand the posts above, if we research Hunting we can be able to have Apha in the same turn that we can have without researching it. This is probably due to the fact that:
1) we have a bonus in the AH research for have hunting
2) we can improve furs, and work them
2 turns of delay for the library/academy are worth one less tech to trade for, and this way we need only to road the furs to have our first happy resource.
I think you can go in this way:
Fishing-Hunting-AH
15 turns are fine for the first TS, then we'll go to 10/12.
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
Ok - thanks!
Yeah, I know. I have a tendency to "overdo" stuff like this.
Still, I think it might be a good idea to do very detailed turnset plans for the first 100 turns or so. If we can stay out of trouble that long then I think we have a very good chance of surviving this game. If we can't stay out of trouble that long then I don't think we'll be able to recover.Great! Thanks Blubmuz. We'll satisfy our curiosity later tonight.
Hey, I've read some confusing stuff about when it is best (or not best) to "upload" the save file. Is the right time to save and upload after all moves are finished for the turn but before I hit "enter" to end the turn? That is what I'm planning to do, but if there is something wrong with it would someone please let me know? Thanks.
I never thanked you properly for the advice on technology trading you posted earlier. It was very helpful, so -- thanks!
culdeus
Emperor
@ Culdeus & Great Beyond: Try refusing to open borders with Khan and the other aggressive AIs. I think that may have been what kept the early DOW away in my game. I also think that removing the goody huts has slowed the AIs down a lot in this version of the test game. Were likely to have much better exchanges for writing available to us than we were led to believe from our earlier test games.
This is the secret to breaking this game wide open. This makes just a HUGE difference. Why is this? I would think giving OB would be a diplo +.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
This is correct, but for the Civ which you sign an OB.
Since often the aggressive, and even the charismatic leaders are not in good relations with the other ones, this *can* lead to a request to stop trading with them.
Also, a "close border" annoyance can lead to this, and many more.
My guess is that we can sign OB with everyone at the very beginning, then watch the F4 "glance" every 2/3 turns to see how things go.
In case we see bad relations between a possible ally and another Civ, we can cancel the OB, and without the penalty "you stopped trading" from this last one.
culdeus
Emperor
Here's a model of what seems to be the "Plan A" right now. Now the main advantage of this build order vs. the worker first seems to be you can pop to size 5 on demand with some MM. Note I totally screwed that up by letting the city get to size 5 by hitting enter too many times. However, that seems to be the big delta. Writing and alpha times are the same. Seems to be about as optimal as I can find without really monkeying with the worked tiles to the point of absurdity.
Spoiler :
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
Great work culdeus. This looks like a thorough test. The population growth times were much faster in the "Plan A" game than in the worker game, but it doesn't look like the the faster growth added up to many real gains vs. the worker strategy -- and by pop 4 both plans are achieving population growth at exactly the same (potential) rates. The worker plan will actually be able to reach pop 5 faster because the +1
from fur is waiting only to be roaded, instead of both camped and roaded. The Plan A might have some military advantages, but I'll have to look closer at that to be sure. (Even so, with closed borders vs. the hotheads I don't think more warriors will be needed as much as we thought.) Here is a comparison:Population Growth:
- Plan A: 2@T14, 3@T22, 4@T32, 5@41(but fur unimproved/over happy cap)
- Worker: 2@T23, 3@T27, 4@T31, 5@54 (fur roaded @53, and possible growth to 5 much earlier than that if not for happy cap)
Library:
- Plan A = 41/42
- Worker = 40/41
Alphabet:
- Plan A = 47/48
- Worker = 46/47
Worker :
- Plan A = 45/46
- Worker = 17/18 (Deer, Fur, Sheep, Stone(mined), & Marble(mined) all improved by turn 44)
Academy:
- Plan A = 59 (projected)
- Worker = 58
It looks to me like the "worker" plan is still a little better. Please let me know if I'm missing something important. Thanks!
Autolog Time Comparisons:
Spoiler :
"Worker Plan" Full Autolog:
Spoiler :
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