SGOTM 07 - Fifth Element

[Merum]

If we OB with GW won't it cause problems for us with Izzy?

 

[BLubmuz]

Merum did not played his TS without an approved plan.
The plan was drawn before the weekend and i gave him the start.

I've not seen complaints about that, and anyway we needed those units.

I think that NOW is the time to set up a plan.

If we have machinery we can self research optics, and get Astro from Lib.

There's Nationalism, and we can go straight to that: it opens constitution and we can also have a GA (Taj Mahal).

There's chemistry: we can research GP and have it for free.

True there're no horses in our continent, but IVORY: far worse for now and this is why i proposed to let the spear complete.

We must evaluate all those options, and keep the AIs monitored, mainly Lizzy.
How many turns before our next GS?

We can decide when we'll be at 1 turn to complete Lib: stop, see the situation, decide.

 

[WastinTime]

Here's my general strategy for tech path. We want to cooperate with all AI to research as fast as possible as a team. So we should chooose a path that they don't go after first. Everything else we can get in trade.

They always go after GunP, Nationalism, Const, guilds, chemistry, banking, econ, corp, and are very willing to trade those. Also, once we give them the prereqs for SciMethod they tend to go for that and Physics hard (for the free scientist). If we want the free scientist, then this is a time that we may overlap research with the AI...but not if we're fast enough. Since we know they will research SciMeth, and Physics, we should not afraid to trade them quickly. After that they have a dozen other techs they prefer over electricity, so we can go for that.

Agree we should stop before Lib and decide. Let's stop 2 turns before instead of 1. There have been times that I needed to make 2 rounds of trades (like machinery, then optics) to make Astro available. I think we'll get optics free since we already have compass.

Good point about Ivory. I forgot about that, but at least they don't move fast, so I'd have killed the spear anyway.

 

[dutchfire]

RE: Taj Mahal: I think we'll have bigger priorities for the next couple of centuries.

 

[MacBalt]

There isn't much luck involved in picking a PA partner or getting them to launch first. Some people think you need spys to sabotage the competition, but that is not necessary. It's all much clearer if you've done a launch before. Has anyone tried a test game where you launched spaceship yet? It's not hard and very educational. I don't see how we will be able to discuss a tech path if no one has even tried to finish a game.

I, for one, haven't yet played this through to the end yet. I was waiting to be able to generate a test game that more accurately reflected the other AI civs on our continent, including their starting tiles. There are still a few tiles hidden -- particularly in Izzy's FC (which could be important because it looks like she may not have metals) -- but I don't think it is worth waiting any longer. The results of my wrestling matches with the worldbuilder are attached below. Please don't hesitate to let me know if/when you find things I've gotten wrong. I'll be happy to correct anything I can and re-post the saves. Note that I chose Napoleon and Catherine to represent France and Russia on the other continent. (Napoleon because I thought they needed another lunatic over there and Catherine because, well, because I kind of have this "thing" about having Catherine in my games... ).

BT-SG7-Test-T00 is an at-start save. It reflects, to the best of my ability, all the tiles and opposing AI from our game. My run-throughs of this start show correct second-city settlement patterns (most of the time, at least) for Asoka, George, Lizzy, Alex, Fred, HC, Toku, & Izzy. No amount of fiddling could get Khan and JC to settle in the "right" places, so expect that pattern to be different.

BT-SG7-Test-T12 starts at turn 12. I've used the world builder to manipulate a few things (including settlement patterns) to get everything I could to match conditions in our own game as they existed at turn 12.

There are actually other roads that let us skip Philo and Liberalism...two techs we don't really need immediately. But going to Lib first is just as good, so I'd rather not discuss the other options and go with the target everyone thinks we've been aiming for all along.

I, for one, would like to learn more about those other routes. I'm glad WastinTime and Merum were able to sort out their disagreements about our last turnset, but I'd really like to see everyone start posting turn-set plans that are a little more detailed. It's not so much that I'd like to control every aspect of play (although I admit I do have some tendencies in that direction... ), it's more because the discussions we have in relation to those detailed game plans are the ones where I think I learn the most. For example, if catapults and more military might not have been the right way to go, then I would have liked to hear the arguments pro and con put forward in a persuasive way before the fact. Arguments after the fact are not nearly as fun (or productive) because they tend to be more recriminating and defensive in nature and less "reasoned/rational" (for want of a better term). Also, I don't mean for this to be a complaint only about this one example. Sometimes very skilled players take for granted seemingly "obvious" things that noobs like me don't have a clue about. Anyway, I just think posting more detailed game plans -- perhaps with some kind of basic format covering major recurring concerns -- would be a good idea for us to consider.

 

[BLubmuz]

OK WT, so peace is back.
Not clear why you gave techs to Wash: what do we care of him?

Dutch, from your sig it seems your exams are finished, i guess successfully.

I've not seen any other comment on Taj.
My points:
We can build it in no time
it's a good boost to our culture
we build it, not others
a golden age it's always a good boost

Of course astro is better than nationalism, mainly for the observatory.

Balth, it's a tiny map, but surely it's a load of work you did.

Well done, i'll try some test.

To clarify about TS plans:
true, it can be the reason why we never won a laurel, and maybe the lack of plans reflect my style to play (i know, i have to improve, but often i got a general plan, and forget some obvious MMs, or else).
I thought that Merum's TS doesn't need to be much discussed, was i wrong?
Not much trades at disposal, a survival war strategy, a research path planned from the start. What else?

question: do we try to research as late as possible SM, or we don't care of the GLib and we take that path?

 

[WastinTime]

We wanted Wash to be Cautious, not Annoyed, so he won't attack again. He still might. I wouldn't have given him paper, but MC seemed harmless.

We could get the Taj after trading for Nationalism, but I don't think we get Nat ourselves.

I think "what to build" needed to be discussed for Merum's TS. I listed 3 or 4 things I would have suggested we build, and the Forge was also a new consideration. Team members even suggested that we don't finish it. I chose to finish it only because it was 1/2 turn from done. I never build forge for a "normal" space race. However, since I see us making space parts, the forge is probably good.

SciMeth: We can look at how close we are to the next GS and decide if we want to delay SM a bit so that will pop. We can't hold off long though.

 

[WastinTime]

I, for one, would like to learn more about those other routes.

The beakers for Philo+Lib > Astro. So if the AI was faster this game and we could've traded for optics right after Edu, then we could've researched Astro and gotten there faster. Let the AI have Lib. They'll probably take Nationalism free which is good for us. They get nat faster and trade it with us.

 

[MacBalt]

I thought that Merum's TS doesn't need to be much discussed, was i wrong?

No, I don't think you were wrong about this BLub. I read what Merum posted before he played and approved of it. But, on the other hand, I'm no WastinTime (or any of our other best players), either. I think we should make every effort to give our most experienced players a chance to comment because no matter how the decision comes out we'll all be better for the discussion that goes along with it -- especially if/when there is disagreement between players like Merum and WastinTime. One aspect of that turnset I would have liked to learn more about, for example, was the choice of the forge. I'm NOT trying to second-guess Merum here. I just would have liked to see how the discussion would have played out between, say, a forge vs. a worker.

Thanks for the kind words about the test game BLub. It did take a while to create, but I feel like I know the worldbuilder a lot better now too.

EDIT: Cross-posted with WastinTime's last two posts.

EDIT #2: Thanks for the tech path answer, WT. This is just one more thing I never would have considered possible without being pointed in the right direction.

 

[dutchfire]

Dutch, from your sig it seems your exams are finished, i guess successfully.

I'm finished with High School (Well, I still have to bring back my books, get my certificate, and perhaps do a retry for one of my exams just for kicks and giggles.

What's the current roster?

By the way, Balthalion (or someone else) could you also post a test game where you've played through until right about the tech situation we're at now. I don't really feel like repeating 100+ turns (with the always present danger of getting declared on and beaten, making the entire effort a waste).

 

[BLubmuz]

The beakers for Philo+Lib > Astro. So if the AI was faster this game and we could've traded for optics right after Edu, then we could've researched Astro and gotten there faster. Let the AI have Lib. They'll probably take Nationalism free which is good for us. They get nat faster and trade it with us.

Not clear to me (i think it's my poor english). Are you saying that you wanna loose the Lib race?

 

[culdeus]

Blubz, you gonna hit a stage this weekend? They are headed your way.

Conty looks like he has the goods to win, but I think with that elbow problem he can't respond to attacks.

How did you like the dead wheel by Cavendish yesterday? Are the local papers saying anything funny about it?

 

[WastinTime]

Not clear to me (i think it's my poor english). Are you saying that you wanna loose the Lib race?

Not any more. We're on Philo and going for Lib. I was just saying that there are other routes that can be faster than winning the Lib race. Only if we were doing culture or probably diplo vicotries would we HAVE to win that race. Space makes it optional.

 

[BLubmuz]

@WT
Right, now it's clear!

@culdeus
i'm sorry but i'm not much interested on sports, i barely know there's the Giro.
So i can't answer to your questions... sorry.

Roster:
Sweetacshon - UP
Blubmuz - on deck
Sabre
dutchfire
culdeus
Balthalion
greatbeyond
Merum
WastinTime - resting

I don't remember what Sweeta said about his duties.
In case he does not grab the save i'll do it tomorrow, and post a plan before play.

 

[culdeus]

Is the most recent save in the process of being played? I'm a little lost as to what techs we still lack for certain things and what we can trade for if we want.

 

[MacBalt]

@ culdeus: Here is a current technology trading screen, if that will help.

 

[MacBalt]

@ dutchfire: here is my most recent testgame autosave at turn 100. Education has just finished and I'm about to start Philosophy. This game has been fun so far. Alex and George went at it early, so there was no DOW against us. We never lost the fur tile, and some of the trading went significantly different in the early game. Health is currently Beijing's biggest problem. I didn't do everything the same as in our "real" game, but we are at about the same place tech-wise. This game felt much easier than the real thing.

In the posted versions of the new test game I forgot the clams 1 tile North of where Nottingham is in our "real" game. I've added the clams back in now, but anyone playing the earlier versions from start might want to put them back in themselves. Their absence might be why Nottingham never got settled in this test version.

If anyone has noticed any other discrepancies please let me know. Thanks!

 

[Sweetacshon]

...returning from the abyss...
It seems like it's my turn, but I'm not sure I'm in the best position to play right now, so I'd better go on skip. I'm currently between houses (yes, homeless), and am about to go on a 2 week holiday. I just don't think the game will get my full attention, so I'll set myself to comment only, for now.

 

[dutchfire]

@Balthalion: Thanks, I'll give it a shot!

@culdeus: I want to see Sella's doping tests.

 

[MacBalt]

Okay, I played it through. First ever win on Diety -- in 1868!

I'm sure the date is no great shakes, but I had a good time.

Some Observations:

• Elizabeth was my PA partner. She was all over the spaceship -- I didn't have to build a single part. Even after building the Ironworks, power, and all those other hammer amplification do-dads I couldn't match her production speed on any spaceship part.
  
• Asoka was the only opponent who stayed close in the tech race, and even he never got past the casings and the thrusters.
  
• The other teams will start forming their own permanent alliances fairly quickly, so I think we need to jump on our target as soon as it becomes available. It would be "sub-optimal" to wait too long and let Liz and Asoka pair up against us.
  
• Beijing was still defended by a Grenadier and several assorted Medieval and Ancient units at the end of the game.
  
• I used some great persons for golden ages at the end, but still ended up with one great scientist and half a golden age left at the end. I'm sure that could be managed much better, but I don't know what the best uses for mid- to late-game Great Persons are.
  
• Washington ended up crunched between Asoka and us, but New York never flipped. So much for the "New York is doomed" theory. Maybe I should have settled a Great Artist early to reduce it faster? Still, it wasn't ever a big problem. By the end of the game New York was down to it's city tile and maybe one other (size 2 or 3, IIRC).
  
• I pretty much followed a "health" based technology path. Researching together with Liz on techs made everything go much faster.
  
• Even if we wanted to build the space elevator we can't because we are too far north. Can't imagine it would have made things go much faster anyway. By the time I got to it the spaceship was almost complete.