SGOTM 07 - Fifth Element

WastinTime · May 30, 2008

Excellent practice game. I think I take the same "health" tech route, but I'm not sure exactly what you meant by that. I find the AI slow to research Refrigeration and Genetics.

I don't recall the AI making a PA until after we do. I think maybe it is rare they do that first...or did you see some of them PA before you? What year did you sign DP and PA?

Merum · May 30, 2008

I've had AI PA ahead of me in test games many times. If we get a chance we need to take it.

BLubmuz · May 30, 2008

I've seen Sweeta's post, so i'm up.
Got the save, i'll open tomorrow and post a plan.
In the meantime, there's a possible trade with Alex and Izzy for Feud: what about it?

Roster New!
Sweetacshon - skip until news
Blubmuz - UP
Sabre - on deck
dutchfire
culdeus
Balthalion
greatbeyond
Merum
WastinTime - resting

Balth, i've seen your report on your test game.
Yes, space elevator is impossible for us, but remember that The 3 Gorges dam gives the same benefit to production (and to any production). We don't need them, 'cause we are in OCC, but our PA partner will benefit from that.

greatbeyond · May 30, 2008

I think the trade with Alex for Feudalism is well worth it.

WastinTime · May 30, 2008

I'm worried that we need machinery, optics before Liberalism and they could stop trading. Let's hold off on feudal until then. We don't really need it unless attacked again. We can always grab it then.

It's nice if you can wait on things like this because then you can trade with a more backwards AI. Then get Guilds/banking from the more advanced ones on the following turns.

BLubmuz · May 30, 2008

I suppose we'll need to spend Philo to get machinery.
In any case we can wait for Feud 'til there.
BTW the most backward civs (Alex and Izzy) lack MC, so no problem to trade something intersting to them.

I'm darn curious to take contact with the "unknown" civs, to see their tech level. I suppose they are very backward.

MacBalt · May 30, 2008

WastinTime said:
Excellent practice game. I think I take the same "health" tech route, but I'm not sure exactly what you meant by that. I find the AI slow to research Refrigeration and Genetics.

Thanks! I chose my tech route based both on my need for better health bonuses and on what you'd said earlier about avoiding techs the AI tends to research quickly. I didn't take notes this time, but I think this was the path I followed after Liberalism & Astronomy (I traded for all the prerequisite techs not on this list):

Scientific Method
Physics
Electricity
Biology (had to trade for Chemistry)
Refrigeration
Radio
Computers
Fission
Satellites (with my PA partner from this point)
Fiber Optics
Fusion
Genetics
Robotics
Ecology

WastinTime said:
I don't recall the AI making a PA until after we do. I think maybe it is rare they do that first...or did you see some of them PA before you? What year did you sign DP and PA?

My PA with Liz was the first in my test game, but it didn't take long for others to follow and I don't doubt that the AI could do it first, as Merum indicated. I only mentioned it because if we miss both Asoka and Liz then the "next best" AI looks like a big step down... Sadly, I don't remember what years the DP and PA were signed. :cry:

BLubmuz said:
there's a possible trade with Alex and Izzy for Feud: what about it?

I would avoid Alex -- or else be sure that he isn't going to give us the -1 relations penalty with either Asoka or Liz. I'm still not perfectly clear on how this "worst enemy" thing works, but even one point can delay getting the defensive pact we need to set up our PA as early as possible.

Question: I found waiting for the AI to research Military Tradition (and allow defense pacts) to be excruciatingly slow. It may have just been an artifact of my one (and only) test game, but might it be better to research it ourselves in order to be able to get a quicker DP and thus a significantly earlier Permanent Alliance?

BLubmuz said:
I'm darn curious to take contact with the "unknown" civs, to see their tech level. I suppose they are very backward.

I don't know how valid the comparison will be, but for what it's worth the AIs on the other continent were significantly behind in my test game. We should be ready to pop a caravel as soon as possible though, because they will have money to spend on our inferior techs.

WastinTime · May 30, 2008

Balthalion, your instincts for the late game space race seem very wise. I find very little to disagree with. I can usually get Biology free in trade. I try to research computers (for the labs) sooner (before Bio/Refrig). And then I do genetics instead of Fission. But it's about the same either way.

In a "normal" deity game, they get MilTrad, but in my test game (as in yours) it was too slow. We should get this manually soon after we trade for the prereqs as you suggested. The other thing the AI gets (when at full strength Deity) is Industrialism, but I found them very slow so I did that one manually.

I hope others will play one thru to the end so we have more viewpoints.

MacBalt · May 30, 2008

One other thing I noticed was that there was a lot of production "dead time" when there didn't seem to be anything critically important to build. I ended up building Broadway, Rock-n-Roll, and the Eiffel Tower, and finally just setting production to beakers for much of the late game. Is that normal?

EDIT: Another interesting side-note was that the game only gave me one "Hit Musical" and one "Hit Single" to trade from Broadway and Rock-n-Roll. Is that because we only have one city?

WastinTime · May 30, 2008

Our city has a bit more production than "normal" and launch is usually around 1500 AD with this game going closer to 1800 AD. Those two reasons would account for some production downtime.

I think they changed those "Hits" to be 2 instead of 5 in a patch. Not sure, it's so rare i'd build those.

culdeus · May 30, 2008

I prefer to think that the other continent is something like:

this

:spear:

MacBalt · May 30, 2008

Ha! One drawback tho: It doesn't look like they'll have much money to spend on our techs...

BLubmuz · May 31, 2008

Situation:
Philo is 4 truns away
Both camps need 4 turns
Univ is 2 turns away
Even Toku is willing to trade Feud and there're no problems: he's in bad relations only with Alex (at war).
Better avoid Alex, he's the worst enemy of a lot of civs.

Plan:
- Wait for machinery to trade Feud
- Complete camps and road, then 1 worker to marble, the other to sheep.
- Build: finish Uni, WB for fish, Oxford
- Lib after Philo, in case we can stop before completion

Why i propose to delay Ox? we're at -2 health, we need that WB soon or later, and with that we can put a scientist at work while stagnating growth, or work a FPH to compensate the delay to build the WB.
When the WB will be a fishing net the deer will be hooked.

I'll play in 7-8 hours from now, if there be enough comments, otherwise tomorrow.

WastinTime · May 31, 2008

So you think +1 health 7 turns early is worth losing 100% research for 2 turns. I vote no WB.

Also, finish the cottage we started on the way to the sheep. It's only 1 turn I think and that will finish Oxford (probalby with some overflow). It will cost us 1 health for the forest loss, but we'll already have the deer and we'll have either a wb, a harbor or an aqueduct in just a couple turns.

Don't waste time roading the Fur. Either marble is fine next or, I vote for the river/cottage after fur. That's only 4 turns and no road needed. If you do marble first it will be 8 turns working that tile and 12 turns before the cottage is back.

Don't be afraid to starve a little to get the Ox out 1 turn early, just don't lose any population. We will concentrate on growing after Ox. We have about + 9 health coming very soon.

Very good observation about Alex. He's not a good person to trade with now.

BLubmuz · May 31, 2008

I supposed you was contrary to the WB

OK, i have some doubts on that, so let's start Ox.

Why have i to loose 1 worker turn not roading the fur? And the Deer, too?
OK for the cottage on the way to the sheep, but - question: is the forest right SW of the city?
2nd question: are more forest pre-chopped/pre-cottaged?

Note: pity we do not put a sign on those!

Marble after fur, no doubt: +1H+3g this will immediately benefit our research and the Ox build.
Every hammer will be *2.5 for Ox!
If i can sync the worker now on furs to build a road to be joined by the one now on deer, then on forest/cottage i'll road first, otherwise i'll quarry first.
The quarry is the longest improvement to build.

Edit:
no, OK for the river cottage after fur (roaded)
the worker on deer will finish the cottage close to sheep, then will road the marble, to be joined by the first one.

OK Philo for Machinery?
What about trade CS to Toku for Feud after that?

MacBalt · May 31, 2008

BLubmuz said:
Marble after fur, no doubt: +1H+3g this will immediately benefit our research and the Ox build.
Every hammer will be *2.5 for Ox!
...
Edit:
no, OK for the river cottage after fur (roaded)
the worker on deer will finish the cottage close to sheep, then will road the marble, to be joined by the first one.

The plan sounds good to me, except that I don't think marble is that important (Oxford uses stone, not marble, for +100% :hammers:

iirc, so the extra hammer by itself isn't really that much of a benefit) and roads on fur and marble could wait until after the cottages because we don't have any happy problem now (and we'll want to get those cottages started again as soon as possible so they'll have time to regenerate some extra :commerce:

).

WastinTime · May 31, 2008

Sounding better, I also vote no road on fur. We *might* use 1 extra turn moving back there some day to road it or we might get a free road from someone like when Wash roaded our deer the first time.

Then the deer-cottage worker can go to sheep instead of marble.

Quarry first! before road on marble. A road is useless on non-quarried marble.

BTW that marble quarry will never be done before Ox is complete so the extra hammer *2.5 is not in play here.

Don't Trade for feudal until after we get optics.

I'm pretty sure we only pre-chopped that 1 tile. The war stopped us from doing 3.

Oh, and don't give Philo to Asoka for anything just yet. No competition for Liberalism.

greatbeyond · May 31, 2008

Excellent idea, Bkubmuz. Let's remember to sign our partial chops/builds so we can keep better track of what needs to be done. I also agree with Oxford first and waiting to trade for Feudalism (with Tokugawa). If we do make trades with Alex, does a tech for cash only incur the "you traded with our worst enemy penalty? If not, let's use Alex as a cash cow.

BLubmuz · May 31, 2008

I agree that marble itself is useless. It's strategic only for HS and TM.
The road was to speed the 2nd worker on marble, and OK the road on fur it's not a priority until we'll have nothing better to do.

Note *every* hammer is doubled by the stone for Ox, don't matter where it's produced (city tile, chopping, fur, etc.).

I'd like to quarry it not only for hammers, but also for gold (= beakers).

Anyway i'll find the best way (i hope).

Techs to alex: no, every trade is considered as a "you trade with enemy" also if you sale tech without exchange.

Toku is the best target for Feud, but: wait until optics? risky.

Asoka is not willing to trade anything, anyway i'll avoid him, for the same reaso he stated: i fear he's becoming too advanced :lol:

.

What i cannot understand is why Wash did not put his 2nd settled where Bombay is (beaten for 1 turn, i presume) and his last chance to build a 2nd city was in that poor place.

BLubmuz · May 31, 2008

Playing, stopped. Autolog:

Spoiler :

Techs: The only one willing to trade machinery is our friend Wash, but he ask this (philo only is not enough).
BTW Drama is a monopoly of Wash, for now.
Toku accept CS+construction for Feud, no money.
Fred can give us 70g+Wm for Monoteism.

I wait until tomorrow morning to finish, hopefully some feedback will arrive.
(almost 1 a.m. here, when i finished to edit this post)

The worker on furs is now cottaging near the river, the one on deer is roading.
Damn normal speed, i hate it.

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