SGOTM 07 - Fifth Element

[greatbeyond]

Start Turn 145, play turns 146 to 152, stop before ending 152

Research - finish Physics

Production - finish Globe, start either Market or LB. I am leaning toward the Market, but a LB to give us a little more defense wouldn't be a bad idea

Worker actions - Stop Worker before completing the Cottage (4T), start roading Fur or road plains hills adjacent to Beijing

"Political Demands:

* Do not give in to any demand for Scientific Method (even if it comes from Asoka or Liz).
* Do not end the war with Kublai (for less than a truckload of stuff).
* Do not give in to any demands that would require anarchy (religion or civics change).
* Give in to all other demands for resources or techs.
* Do not join any wars.
* Do not give in to demands to cancel any deals (unless the request comes from Asoka or Liz and it appears to make sense for us)."

I agree in principle but will have to think over any demands. I would rather complete Tech trades before they are demanded. I see that there are several choices.

Possible tech trades - Caesar: Gunpowder for Liberalism and Drama, or GP & Eng for Lib,Drama, PP
GW: GP+WM+40G for Lib & PP
Hatshepsut: Eng + WM + 30G for Ed
Louis: Eng+HBR+WM+50G for Ed
Isabella: Eng+HBR+40G
There are other trades for the lesser techs. I would make the trade with Caesar (option 1) then Louis as noted above, then wait one turn to see if anyone else has something more to trade. The ideal time to trade with Caesar would be IBT as he wouldn't be able to trade to another Civ on his turn. The question being how do we get him to ask us IBT?

Upgrades - Archers to LBs, we have plenty of money. In all my test games money never became an issue. We are "losing" 3G/T which will last us another 100+ turns. That is based on no more income. I think the Archer upgrade takes precedence to the Axe upgrade. As soon as we get GP we could/should upgrade our LBs to Muskets. I think it is important to not appear too far behind techwise in defensive units.

Any other suggestions?

 

[Merum]

So are we doing a 4 turn GP rush or not?

 

[MacBalt]

I think we ought to do the 4-turn Great Person rush. Just max-out the scientists and micromanage to reduce starvation as much as possible. (I haven't checked tonight, but it might even come out slightly positive on food.) Once we get the Great Scientist or Great Artist, I think we've all pretty much agreed to settle them immediately.

Good on Physics, but two things: (1) I'd really like to start Military Tradition right after Physics, so (2) getting a trade for Nationalism ASAP is vitally important. Three AI have it now, including Cyrus, who will trade with us sooner rather than later (I hope). WastinTime said that Nationalism will usually trade for Astronomy. I'd really rather hold off on all trades until we get it, but BLubmuz was pretty adamant about doing some trading now, IIRC.

I suppose if we have to make a trade before Nationalism, then the gunpowder trade with JC is good. I'd rather not go beyond that, but if getting Engineering just can't wait a few turns then go ahead and get it -- but don't take HBR or Theology. Just drop them from the list (or risk a lecture from WT like when I traded for Organized Religion. ) We don't need either one (ever), and they just increase our WFYABTA. I'd really hate to miss being able to trade for Nationalism just because we got Horseback Riding!

Good pickup on stopping the cottage.

I don't think we need a market because we'll be running 100% science for the rest of the game (if all goes well). Don't know if LB is best, but I haven't checked our other options.

I'll try to check the save later tonight. Great write-up GB! Lookout though, some of these clowns might be calling you something colorful soon too.

EDIT: You might road the cottage tile so it will be easier to revisit if roading is all we've got left to do with that worker.

EDIT: Oh yeah, one more "cent": Just in case, I suggest we don't end this war before Asoka does -- not even for a truckload of stuff. Let's keep him mutually militarily struggling together with us as long as possible.

 

[WastinTime]

Let's not sacrifice too much growth or research to get the GP a couple turns early. (don't stop working the fur, for example.) Do whatever you think is best, and gets us Physics in 7.

I think we can hold off a couple more turns to get Nationalism before everything else. Once we get that critial tech, we can grab anything that we eventually will need. If a huge stack of units comes from KK, then obviously grab Gunpowder or something that helps. I'm sure you'll get all that trading done in your TS, just not before Nationalism please.

I hope you mean grocer, not market. We will never want a market (gives happy). Currently a grocer doesn't do anything either. Just switch to building Research and cut a turn off Physics. Physics should be in on t152. We'll discuss the grocer later.

You can give in to a demand for SciMeth since Asoka already has it.

 

[MacBalt]

Okay, I checked the save. There really doesn't seem to be anything left to build that we need. Another military unit probably isn't necessary and will just cost us more unit upkeep. We could build a couple of extra work boats, I suppose, just in case someone comes along later and pillages our sea resources. (I don't think work boats cost upkeep, do they?) If we are going to build a building, then I'd say Grocer would be best because we're going to need the health. But two of the four resources that give us grocer health are completely missing from this game's world map, and the other two are only available on one tile each. I doubt very much we'll ever get George to give us his wine monopoly or Fred to let us play with his only banana.

When all is said and done it may be best to consider just setting production to beakers for awhile.

The 4-turn Great Scientist rush is possible without losing any ground on research while losing only 1 food per turn. Just work all our food resources, the plains/river cottage, and all the grass cottages except one. We could do it without losing any food, but Physics slips a turn if don't work either the fur or the plains/river cottage. Since the cottage produces more cash I think we're better off working it than the fur.

Also, while playing around with the tiles I noticed that if we run this plan for three turns it gets us to within 2 (yes 2!) points of popping our next GP. I'm thinking that sticking in an extra artist or engineer on the last turn (turn #3 of this scenario) might be worth the risk. If we REALLY don't want an engineer, then we could just stick in an artist and see what we get one turn sooner than otherwise. It would only cost us two more food if we use a cottage tile, and MAYBE not delay physics by an extra turn if we use one of the 3-commerce producing cottages instead of a town. It might be best just to have GreatBeyond make this decision when the time comes. (I'm convinced we're going to get an artist anyway, so... ...I'm not sure it really matters.)

EDIT: Cross-post with WastinTime. Uh-oh, I missed the point again. Of course, for a four turn rush we only need to run five scientists instead of six, that way we can still work the fur and keep our population growing. Foiled again!

EDIT #2: Apologies to Merum for taking an extra day to discover exactly what he told us he'd discovered yesterday. Time for a shot of that scotch.

 

[MacBalt]

Do whatever you think is best, and gets us Physics in 7.

It looks to me like Physics comes in 8 turns no matter how we MM the tiles and scientists. We can work five scientists, 2 crabs, sheep, deer, fur, four grass cottages, and the plains cottage to get Physics in 8 and break even on growth. We could shift from the deer to a coast (or our smallest cottage) for more commerce & a little starvation, but that still won't get us Physics in 7. Am I missing something again?

EDIT: I suppose after Globe is finished we could grow a pop and that will help. Also, if we really do pop a Great Scientist then that could help us get Physics in seven. Still, it's a bit of a... ...isn't it?

 

[WastinTime]

I think you're forgetting that we need to build Research.

 

[greatbeyond]

The 4 turn GS rush seems to be the consensus. I had forgotten that in my outline.

As for building a Grocer or Market. A Market won't be needed for the happy face as long as we get the GT (2T). A Grocer won't give the health unless we get someone to give up their only resource. As Balthalion pointed out there is only one of each on our continent. I didn't check the Civs on the other continent to see if any of them had extra. With this in mind the only reason I consider building either is for the +25% Gold. Right now we can run at 100% science for a long time, but that doesn't allow us to spend any money to upgrade our units (or gold per turn bribes). I feel we need one or the other to boost our Gold income (eventually both).
As for additional units the cost is not that great and the danger of not having enough modern defenders is very real. The need to build research may take precedence in order to complete Physics ahead of anyone else.

GS when born is to be settled. GA (if we are unlucky) still seems to have a questionable fate.

I'll check for replies this afternoon and either play then or later tonight.

Blubmuz, Your English skills are way ahead of my Italian skills, "Bongiorno, Ciao"

 

[WastinTime]

In 2 turns (infinite happiness), you can sell our happy resources, cancel that dye deal we have, cancel that both whale deals and renegotiate. Some cash from those + tons of cash from tech trades (after Nationalism) will mean 100% science forever.

I can usually get enough cash to outright buy the UN in 1 turn (no GE), so we should have plenty of cash for upgrades. The best time to get cash from them is after a WW is built. Everyone who didn't finish that wonder gets a cash bomb.

 

[BLubmuz]

Since the grocer can't help with health, if we want a building to increase our income in case we want turn down research (i don't see why) the best choice is a bank.
Anyway, after the Globe we'll build research until something else is needed.

Agreed on renegotiate deals to try to squeeze some gpt.

Agreed also on the war: let KK cook in his soup, this way we gain good relations with our 3 allies.

Let's do that Gp rush, then settle any GP can arrive, if not a GE which needs to be discussed.

Hey dutch, still drunk for your graduation and your football team?

EDIT:
we can build a grocer, perhaps after Physics: it's the prerequisite for the supermarket, and this last one will be a big help for health! +1 for Pigs, sheep, cow, deer (+3 for us)!!! Do we research refrigeration?

 

[WastinTime]

If GB played today, that should work out great. I'm next and will play before the weekend, but then I'm out for 10 days (with internet access this time.)

 

[greatbeyond]

TS completed, I will post the Save soon.

Trades - Saladin will trade us Nationalism for SM
Caesar wiil trade Nat for Astro and Drama
Asoka and Cathy will trade us Nat for Physics

First GS was born in 4T and settled, after getting Physics, we have another GS.

I forgot to examine our Happy resource trades as WT suggested.

Our Worker built a road on the tile he was on and then moved to the PH 1E of Beijing.

Washington seems to be building up his forces in New York.

The Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm7/Fifth_Element_SG007_AD0840_01.Civ4SavedGame

The Log:

Spoiler :

Turn 145, 700 AD: Met Hatty & Opened Borders with her.
Turn 145, 700 AD: Still no trades for Nationalism available.
Turn 145, 700 AD: Logging Game to File: GOTM30 Test.txt
Turn 145, 700 AD: Isabella has declared war on Kublai Khan!
Turn 145, 700 AD: Mansa Musa has declared war on Montezuma!
Turn 145, 700 AD: Alexander converts to Confucianism!

Turn 146, 720 AD: Asoka will trade Nationalism but we don't have anything he wants

Turn 147, 740 AD: Hatshepsut asks us to DOW on Monty, I decline

Turn 148, 760 AD: Marie Curie has been born in Beijing!
Turn 148, 760 AD: St. Paul has been born in Rome!
Turn 148, 760 AD: Amir Khusro has been born in Mecca!
Turn 148, 760 AD: Saladin's Golden Age has ended...

Turn 149, 780 AD: KK offers peace with us giving him Lib
Turn 149, 780 AD: Beijing will become unhealthy on the next turn
Turn 149, 780 AD: Mansa Musa adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 150, 800 AD: Saladin has 6 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 150, 800 AD: Beijing has grown to size 16
Turn 150, 800 AD: Beijing has become unhealthy
Turn 150, 800 AD: Alexander adopts Mercantilism!
Turn 150, 800 AD: Heliopolis has been captured by the Russian Empire!!!
Turn 150, 800 AD: Mani has been born in Moscow!

Turn 151, 820 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Alexander, Catherine, Louis XIV
Turn 151, 820 AD: Can Trade Open Borders with: Catherine
Turn 151, 820 AD: Catherine has 5 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 151, 820 AD: Louis XIV has 100 gold available for trade
Turn 151, 820 AD: Niels Bohr has been born in Beijing!
Turn 151, 820 AD: You have discovered Physics!
Turn 151, 820 AD: You have discovered a source of Uranium near Beijing!
Turn 151, 820 AD: St. Augustine has been born in Tenochtitlan!
Turn 151, 820 AD: Asoka adopts Representation!
Turn 151, 820 AD: Elizabeth has completed Versailles!
Turn 151, 820 AD: Werner Heisenberg has been born in Susa!

Turn 152, 840 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Julius Caesar, Cyrus, Saladin, Catherine

Log:

Spoiler :

Isabella(Spain) declares war on Kublai Khan(Mongolia)
Mansa Musa(Mali) declares war on Montezuma(Aztec)
State Religion Change: Alexander(Greece) from 'Hinduism' to 'Confucianism'
Attitude Change: Montezuma(Aztec) towards Mansa Musa(Mali), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Montezuma(Aztec) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Cyrus(Persia) towards Mansa Musa(Mali), from 'Friendly' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Cyrus(Persia) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Washington(America), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Cyrus(Persia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Tokugawa(Japan), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Louis XIV(France), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Attitude Change: Tokugawa(Japan) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Louis XIV(France) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 146/460 (720 AD) [19-Jun-2008 11:58:41]
User comment: Asoka will trade Nationalism but we don't have anything he wants
Beijing finishes: Globe Theatre
Attitude Change: Washington(America) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Cyrus(Persia) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards Kublai Khan(Mongolia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Louis XIV(France) towards Asoka(India), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 147/460 (740 AD) [19-Jun-2008 12:01:44]
User comment: Hatshepsut asks us to DOW on Monty, I decline
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards SGOTM07(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 148/460 (760 AD) [19-Jun-2008 12:04:25]
Marie Curie (Great Scientist) born in Beijing
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 149/460 (780 AD) [19-Jun-2008 12:06:23]
User comment: KK offers peace with us giving him Lib

IBT:
Attitude Change: Montezuma(Aztec) towards Mansa Musa(Mali), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) towards Montezuma(Aztec), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Civics Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) from 'Despotism' to 'Hereditary Rule'

Turn 150/460 (800 AD) [19-Jun-2008 12:12:32]
Contact made: Russian Empire
Beijing grows: 16

IBT:
Attitude Change: Cyrus(Persia) towards Washington(America), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Catherine(Russia) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Attitude Change: Louis XIV(France) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Louis XIV(France) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Civics Change: Alexander(Greece) from 'Decentralization' to 'Mercantilism'

Turn 151/460 (820 AD) [19-Jun-2008 12:13:46]
Tech learned: Physics
Niels Bohr (Great Scientist) born in Beijing

IBT:
Attitude Change: Washington(America) towards Julius Caesar(Rome), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Cyrus(Persia) towards Catherine(Russia), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Attitude Change: Kublai Khan(Mongolia) towards Asoka(India), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Asoka(India), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Catherine(Russia) towards Asoka(India), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Asoka(India), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Louis XIV(France), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Louis XIV(France) towards Asoka(India), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Civics Change: Asoka(India) from 'Hereditary Rule' to 'Representation'

Turn 152/460 (840 AD) [19-Jun-2008 12:15:40]
Research begun: Communism (8 Turns)

 

[Merum]

It's my birthday Saturday, so unless somebody wants to skip, we're probably talking about Sunday before I actually play a turnset. To get the discussion going, GW is now only cautious with us again, and I think he intends to DoW us again soon. Because of this I want to get nationalism (Caesar) and gunpowder (Somebody else) through trades if possible and do a little pre-emptive military buildup.

Worker: Hook up silver, then iron, then uranium

Research: Electricity or communism to enable PA now (although we probably won't be able to get one without a DP for a while)

Cancel trades and renegotiate, and shop our happy resources around.

I'd like some input on trades from the team. I feel that we're slipping behind a bit.

Should we have a go at the UN? We've got pretty decent relations with a lot of civs.

EDIT: GW has had replaceable parts for some time now, and I fear he will have rifles soon. We should probably pay attention to that and either try to get chem for grens to counter rifles or go up the rifling path ourselves to rocketry. Lumbermills on our remaining forests would be nice, too.

 

[WastinTime]

Good Job.

EDIT: Oops, cross post with Merum, I thought I was next. Can I? I'm out of town for 10 days starting Saturday

Joining the Monty war would have been OK cus he's land-locked on the other continent, but your decision was probably wiser because declaring war on him would have gotten us a few "-1 you declared on our friend" (assuming Monty has some friends.)

I'll need to play on Friday, so let me start on my plan (draft):

Trade for Nationalism and then other stuff. I agree we should keep an eye on GW and prepare to defend, but GW has not built any new military for a long time. I haven't seen any new units for at least 2 turnsets. Having him instantly upgrade is a concern. Once we get some new tech we will have better visibility into where the AI is on tech.

Re-organize resource trades, keeping something open with Asoka and Liz.

Since we're building research, I'll get off the stone and do a scientist.

Same diplomatic strategy

Research MilTrad, then Electricity, Communism will be done by the AI. We can't use it for at least 45 turns.

Settle the Scientist. Yay! we got him!

Worker : road the Fur for trade, then probably silver, iron, uranium.

TajMahal is gone already, so no discussion there.

Doesn't seem like a lot of controversial topics, shouldn't be a problem playing tomorrow or even late tonight (12 hours from now). Let me know if I'm up, Blub.

 

[Merum]

Since our schedules support it, WT and I can trade sets. Go get em, WT.

EDIT: I do want to reiterate my concern about the replaceable parts/rifling issue. I think that's a key vulnerability for us right now.

Shifting the spyglass at the other continent, Catherine and Cyrus are emerging as significant threats. They seem to be acting together to take over their continent, and both have significant territorial holdings currently. Catherine is rolling Hatty and could very well annex the rest of her territory soon, and with such a large chunk of land and resources, she could quickly become unstoppable.

How do we counter this? Even if we do manage to secure a PA with Asoka, if he has no room to grow, Cyrus or Catherine (or a PA between them) could be unstoppable. I know that many are against this, but I think a war plan needs to be at least drawn up with the intention of providing space for Asoka. Either that, or we need to start friending some of these other civs with the possibility of them becoming a PA partner.

Saladin is also a threat, enjoying lots of breathing room on his own little private Japan.

 

[MacBalt]

We got both scientists?! Whoohoo! I'm still amazed we didn't get an artist.

I like WT's plan, but agree with Merum about the Riflemen danger from George. If we can get a DP with Asoka quickly we might be able to make him think twice about a new DOW.

Excellent work, Greatbeyond!

EDIT: Oh yeah, Happy Birthday Merum!

 

[BLubmuz]

Goooood one GB!
2 GS to settle in 3 turns or so are a great boost!

Not a problem in swapping TSs, especially to give our second oldest member and only team founder the chance to forget how old he is. Happy birthday, mate.

Trade the possible, WT.

I'm afraid we're losing techs and good opportunities with this delay.

Do your best, but squeeze out any possible tech in the same turn (possibly the inherited one), then try to see what you can do in next one.

Time to stop to be concerned by the "WFYABTA".

Why electricity? to build the Broadway? i agree, we can trade for 2 happy resources and give a nice +50% to our cultural pressure.

Some military is needed.
No units can be upgraded to muskets, and IMO LBs are still better as defenders.
In case we can build a couple maces, they can be upgraded to both Grens or Rifles.

Edit:
I think we must see who's got GP and presumably Chem.
We can try Astro to JC for Nat, see who's willing to trade GP and trade it, then SM for Chem.
Don't forget to always try to "ask to spare for a good friend" if the AI is pleased.
Banking is also important, since it drives to RP/Rifling.
After Nat we must also consider Const/Demo and perhaps give a shot to Lady Liberty.

 

[WastinTime]

Trade the possible, WT.

Why electricity? to build the Broadway? i agree, we can trade for 2 happy resources and give a nice +50% to our cultural pressure.

In case we can build a couple maces, they can be upgraded to both Grens or Rifles.

Don't forget to always try to "ask to spare for a good friend" if the AI is pleased.

Agree, After MilTrad, we're heading to Computers. Electricity is just the next one on the way there. Not really interested in it specificly.

Agree, to build something that upgrades to Gren/Rifle.

ask for tech...does that work? that would something new for me. Are you sure no one who is pleased will get mad?

 

[BLubmuz]

ask for tech...does that work? that would something new for me. Are you sure no one who is pleased will get mad?

If an AI is pleased (better if friendly), you can ask anything: gpt, gold, WM, resources, techs.
Without any penalty:
if they want, they just gift with a "always pleased to help",
if not they just say "sorry, it's too much" or something like that.

I use it often, and sometimes i obtain nice rewards from this.

Of course if doesn't work below pleased: you must ask anything "in tribute" and this gives penalties.
Usually i ask for gold before to DoW, not in BtS, or i have to wait 10 turns.

Amazingly surprised how a player like you needs suggestions from a poor guy like me .

 

[Merum]

Right. You can ask for anything from any civ pleased or above, and if they don't want to give, they just don't no penalty involved. I do this without thinking about it, and just assumed everybody else did too. Obviously, if you ask for the major stuff usually you'll get a "no" but small stuff the AI gives up quite often.