Strangly quiet here. It's late. I'll play in the morning...8-10 hours from now.
SGOTM 07 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
Not much to say. Merum has a point about the civs on the other continent. I think I counted six cities for Saladin, and Cyrus and Catherine both have more cities than any civ on our continent (IIRC). I don't know, but it worries me that we could face more competition than I thought, even with Asoka as our PA partner. I still think we'll out-tech them fast enough to build all the spaceship parts we need with fewer cities, but if we could find a way to set the leading civs on the other continent against each other that might be a good thing. (And/or make more room for Asoka on this continent, as Merum suggested. Not sure how much of a distraction from our game plan that would be though...)
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Yes, the 2 continents are unbalanced:
I noticed Arabia and Russia are the big dogs, followed by Persia.
Mansa was attacked by Louis and maybe Cathy.
In our continent there're 2 AI to 1 city, and the rest with 2.
Even Asoka with his nice land can't compete with civs 3 times bigger than him, and i've seen good lands in the other continent, too.
More cities mean the Oxford and the other Nat. Wonders, not to mention more military power.
After the PA with Asoka (if we manage to do it) we must attack Wash, raze NY and let Asoka take Wash, but even together it will be a hard competition.
We must invent something, and soon, unless we can see a possible PA partner in Saladin or Cyrus.
I noticed Arabia and Russia are the big dogs, followed by Persia.
Mansa was attacked by Louis and maybe Cathy.
In our continent there're 2 AI to 1 city, and the rest with 2.
Even Asoka with his nice land can't compete with civs 3 times bigger than him, and i've seen good lands in the other continent, too.
More cities mean the Oxford and the other Nat. Wonders, not to mention more military power.
After the PA with Asoka (if we manage to do it) we must attack Wash, raze NY and let Asoka take Wash, but even together it will be a hard competition.
We must invent something, and soon, unless we can see a possible PA partner in Saladin or Cyrus.
TS done. save
It was a busy one.
Traded for banking+110 (Louis:Edu) and Nat.+10 (JC:Astron+Drama)
MilTrad in 5
Liz is at +0 trade so I traded her Aston for 310. Now she's +4 (+8 total) and should sign DP.
Let's see how Const and Econ are coming along before trading more.
Moved galleon out farther to get an early warning...Oh look, a caravel from KK. Let's see how the next turn goes. May need a 2nd ship.
Sent the caravel home for defense.
Worker to Fur...needed to tag-team a new escort.
cancel dye
sell crab for 5. Sell stone for 3. Waiting for Fur to re-arrange others.
Settle GS
T1: PP + Edu for Eng + gunpowder
KK must've attacked someone and won, health at 0.6. So I'll finish him off.
With DPs coming, we have to cancel the war. Only cost 10.
T2: HC demands Liberalism, Gave it. We are now friendly. Because of that, he will now trade Econ. Traded Astron for Econ+140
I've calculated we can grow 2 more and have 2 scientists running with 1 health to spare, but we will need to work that cottage we didn't finish which knocks off that 1 health. So I'm going to chop it into Hermitage. Switching off research build now still gets us MT in 3.
Traded Liz Fur for Whale (so we at least get something)
Canceled the fish deal with Cyrus
T3: Cottage done, No trades for const or chem. I don't want to sell whale for 3.
DP with Cyrus
T4: Start silver. Monty is dead! (by Mansa)
T5: MT. Def Pact with Liz. She also became friendly (+3 for civics) which means she will trade Const!
Traded SciMeth+WM+250 for Const
Got another 220 from Cyrus for Econ
HC will also take a DP. This is our last chance to get one with him because we are going to switch off HeredRule. I don't think we want one with him. Getting our 3rd DP might make everyone mad--"-1 you've signed a DP with our rivals"
So I'll pass. His cities are squeezed culturally so he'd make a bad partner.
At +9 Asoka will not sign. We will have to wait until we get the +1 for resource trades (when did we first give him that stone? I think it's another 9 turns)
Need to check that every turn and be careful not to trade with any of his enemies or he may never sign. (So no trading/gifts to Alex, Louis)
Anarchy for Rep+FreeMarket
T6: Traded Liz Physics for Corp.
Traded Cathy Silver for 5
Electricity in 10
T7: completed Hermitage.
Worker to Iron. Again Tag-team coverage.
Made a bunch of trades for cash and to make people happier. Cathy is annoyed, but I didn't want to give her our last tech. Hopefully she'll demand it.
1000 AD: We're doing a whopping 582 beakers/turn now (was 438) and we have 1272 cash.
Culture/turn is 108 so border expansion in roughly 17 turns.
Started a maceman. Merum can get our military more to his liking now, but is war likely with 2 DPs?
We can't start any wars or those get cancelled.
Still no chemistry and we still have whale to trade.
Autolog
It was a busy one.
Traded for banking+110 (Louis:Edu) and Nat.+10 (JC:Astron+Drama)
MilTrad in 5
Liz is at +0 trade so I traded her Aston for 310. Now she's +4 (+8 total) and should sign DP.
Let's see how Const and Econ are coming along before trading more.
Moved galleon out farther to get an early warning...Oh look, a caravel from KK. Let's see how the next turn goes. May need a 2nd ship.
Sent the caravel home for defense.
Worker to Fur...needed to tag-team a new escort.
cancel dye
sell crab for 5. Sell stone for 3. Waiting for Fur to re-arrange others.
Settle GS
T1: PP + Edu for Eng + gunpowder
KK must've attacked someone and won, health at 0.6. So I'll finish him off.
With DPs coming, we have to cancel the war. Only cost 10.
T2: HC demands Liberalism, Gave it. We are now friendly. Because of that, he will now trade Econ. Traded Astron for Econ+140
I've calculated we can grow 2 more and have 2 scientists running with 1 health to spare, but we will need to work that cottage we didn't finish which knocks off that 1 health. So I'm going to chop it into Hermitage. Switching off research build now still gets us MT in 3.
Traded Liz Fur for Whale (so we at least get something)
Canceled the fish deal with Cyrus
T3: Cottage done, No trades for const or chem. I don't want to sell whale for 3.
DP with Cyrus
T4: Start silver. Monty is dead! (by Mansa)
T5: MT. Def Pact with Liz. She also became friendly (+3 for civics) which means she will trade Const!
Traded SciMeth+WM+250 for Const
Got another 220 from Cyrus for Econ
HC will also take a DP. This is our last chance to get one with him because we are going to switch off HeredRule. I don't think we want one with him. Getting our 3rd DP might make everyone mad--"-1 you've signed a DP with our rivals"
So I'll pass. His cities are squeezed culturally so he'd make a bad partner.
At +9 Asoka will not sign. We will have to wait until we get the +1 for resource trades (when did we first give him that stone? I think it's another 9 turns)
Need to check that every turn and be careful not to trade with any of his enemies or he may never sign. (So no trading/gifts to Alex, Louis)
Anarchy for Rep+FreeMarket
T6: Traded Liz Physics for Corp.
Traded Cathy Silver for 5
Electricity in 10
T7: completed Hermitage.
Worker to Iron. Again Tag-team coverage.
Made a bunch of trades for cash and to make people happier. Cathy is annoyed, but I didn't want to give her our last tech. Hopefully she'll demand it.
1000 AD: We're doing a whopping 582 beakers/turn now (was 438) and we have 1272 cash.
Culture/turn is 108 so border expansion in roughly 17 turns.
Started a maceman. Merum can get our military more to his liking now, but is war likely with 2 DPs?
We can't start any wars or those get cancelled.
Still no chemistry and we still have whale to trade.
Spoiler :
Autolog
Spoiler :
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
With DPs on board, I'm less inclined to build obsolete military... I'd prefer to wait for grens/rifles in this case.
We should send somebody south to refresh our map information... I'd like to see where the borders stand after all this war.
I'm in Tokyo for birthday celebrating... so it's going to be probably 48 yet before I play. If somebody else wants to play through, I'm fine with that.
We should send somebody south to refresh our map information... I'd like to see where the borders stand after all this war.
I'm in Tokyo for birthday celebrating... so it's going to be probably 48 yet before I play. If somebody else wants to play through, I'm fine with that.
I thought it would be best to have a mace ready for instant cash upgrade to gren/rifle since we have 1200+. Rifles will take a while to build.
Buy hey, I'm all for switching research build back on.
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
Wow - lots of stuff accomplished. Nice jump on the charts too. 
I am disappointed that Asoka still isn't ready to sign a DP with us. Every turn of delay makes him less attractive as a partner because the benefits of signing the earliest possible PA are so great. I think I'd rather have a PA with Liz than Asoka if I can get the PA with Liz ten turns earlier. I thought that war would put us over the top with Asoka for sure. I noticed he is down to +8 in glance. What is it going to take to get him on our side -- Universal Sufferage???
On the other hand, it is great to have DPs with both Cyrus and Liz. Either one would be fine, and Cyrus actually might be a better option than Liz at this point because of his four cities. He seems to be researching as fast as Asoka, but he is only at +6 with us on glance -- which could make it more difficult to get him to take the final step and sign a PA.
Cyrus has lots of suitors though. He is at +9 with Catherine and Catherine is at +15 with him. Mansa (+10) and Louis (+12) also like Cyrus, and he is at +7 with each of them. Catherine and Louis seem to prefer each other at this point though, as they share +15 on glance. I noticed that Mansa is a part of the Louis-Cathy-Cyrus love fest too.
Did you see all the gold in Saladin's territory? That boy might become our closest competitor. He is at +12 with Hatty though, who is currently getting whipped up on pretty good by Catherine, so if he PAs with her that could slow him down a bit (or at least not help him much). We might want to encourage that conflict if we can.
Lots to consider. I agree with Merum that more military isn't so necessary now with our defense pacts -- which re-opens the question about what to build. Maybe another galleon to firm up our sea defenses? Otherwise I think we're back to building beakers. We are approaching that stage of the game where there just isn't anything we need to build. This is when I used the time to build Broadway and other wonders, but I don't think they really helped that much. Maybe we should think about building an army after all -- perhaps to help make room for Liz instead of Asoka if things don't progress well with Cyrus???
EDIT: Cross-post with WT. Of course the maceman to upgrade idea is also a good approach. We can promote him to city attack before upgrading and end up with more offensive power in our riflemen, if that is the way we decide to go.
I am disappointed that Asoka still isn't ready to sign a DP with us. Every turn of delay makes him less attractive as a partner because the benefits of signing the earliest possible PA are so great. I think I'd rather have a PA with Liz than Asoka if I can get the PA with Liz ten turns earlier. I thought that war would put us over the top with Asoka for sure. I noticed he is down to +8 in glance. What is it going to take to get him on our side -- Universal Sufferage???
On the other hand, it is great to have DPs with both Cyrus and Liz. Either one would be fine, and Cyrus actually might be a better option than Liz at this point because of his four cities. He seems to be researching as fast as Asoka, but he is only at +6 with us on glance -- which could make it more difficult to get him to take the final step and sign a PA.
Cyrus has lots of suitors though. He is at +9 with Catherine and Catherine is at +15 with him. Mansa (+10) and Louis (+12) also like Cyrus, and he is at +7 with each of them. Catherine and Louis seem to prefer each other at this point though, as they share +15 on glance. I noticed that Mansa is a part of the Louis-Cathy-Cyrus love fest too.
Did you see all the gold in Saladin's territory? That boy might become our closest competitor. He is at +12 with Hatty though, who is currently getting whipped up on pretty good by Catherine, so if he PAs with her that could slow him down a bit (or at least not help him much). We might want to encourage that conflict if we can.
Lots to consider. I agree with Merum that more military isn't so necessary now with our defense pacts -- which re-opens the question about what to build. Maybe another galleon to firm up our sea defenses? Otherwise I think we're back to building beakers. We are approaching that stage of the game where there just isn't anything we need to build. This is when I used the time to build Broadway and other wonders, but I don't think they really helped that much. Maybe we should think about building an army after all -- perhaps to help make room for Liz instead of Asoka if things don't progress well with Cyrus???
EDIT: Cross-post with WT. Of course the maceman to upgrade idea is also a good approach. We can promote him to city attack before upgrading and end up with more offensive power in our riflemen, if that is the way we decide to go.
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
I don't have a problem with the mace building now... I just don't want to build 20 of them. 
If we are not going to actively war to make space for one of our continent mates, then we should forget both Asoka and Liz as PA partners. Neither one of them will be able to keep up with the heavies on the other continent, and we'll be shooting ourselves in the foot. IMO, Cyrus is the leading candidate now, and we should either cultivate that relationship or start building an attack force to take our local PA partner's competitors out of the picture.
Either that, or build the UN and try for a diplo.
So umm... why do we have 2 DPs and are looking for a 3rd?
If we are not going to actively war to make space for one of our continent mates, then we should forget both Asoka and Liz as PA partners. Neither one of them will be able to keep up with the heavies on the other continent, and we'll be shooting ourselves in the foot. IMO, Cyrus is the leading candidate now, and we should either cultivate that relationship or start building an attack force to take our local PA partner's competitors out of the picture.
Either that, or build the UN and try for a diplo.
So umm... why do we have 2 DPs and are looking for a 3rd?
So umm... why do we have 2 DPs and are looking for a 3rd?
I believe I said only 1 pact because, if you play on Tiny (with 2 opponents, not 18) You immediately get a -4 with everyone else when signing a dp. The other problem with multiple DPs is if someone declares war on Liz for example, we are dragged into that war and it cancels our DP with Cyrus. It's dangerous to have more than 1, but we just have no idea whom to PA with yet.
Getting an early PA *might* be good since the AI is so weak in this specific setup. Normally it is a very bad idea. It's best to wait until the last 10-20 turns of the game. I recently played a game where I got a PA and it took about 30 turns to finish. I reloaded and replayed waiting 10 turns before signing the PA. The AI was so much farther that we finished in 10 turns. That's a 10 turn savings just in the last 30 turns on normal speed. Once you PA, the AI civ no longer gets all those easy AI-AI trades. Also an OCC can drag down a 8-city AI-not the case for us, so we may need to test a bit to see what kind of finish is best.
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
Interesting. Of course I only have my test game of this particular setup to go on, so my experience is very limited. The PA made a huge difference in research speed in my game though, and I don't know how the spaceship parts thing would work out if we're not in a PA but our potential/future PA partner is working on the same part(s). I don't think we should wait too long in this game though because in my game the AIs started to pair up into PAs fairly quickly after I did. We could lose Asoka and Liz to each other, and we'll be lucky to get a shot at Cyrus before one of his other suitors is able to put the ball and chain on him, I expect.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
WT, i'm afraid the PA strategies for a normal tiny map are quite different from this one.
I'm concerned that if we wait too much the AI can PA each other, and the risk is to not find a partner.
I agree that Cyrus can be better than Liz or Asoka and the relations with him will improve since his favourite civic is Repr.
For the same reason (favourite civic, but FR this time) i see Liz better than Asoka.
I see Liz as the best possible PA partner 'cause she's our neighbor and she can actually help in a war to give her some room.
I guess that we must DoW GW right after the PA pact with her, then see what we can do with Asoka.
If everything goes well she can have 4 cities, if it goes very well (wipe both GW and Asoka) she can have 6, and very good.
Roster
Blubmuz - UP
Merum - on deck
Sabre
dutchfire
culdeus
Sweetacshon
Balthalion
greatbeyond
WastinTime - resting
I hope the roster is correct, since Merum asked for another swap i'll play in the weekend.
I think i'll finish that mace, then build research, and continue the path to computers.
I don't think it will be on my TS, but in case do we build Broadway after electricity?
Worker: connect furs and iron, soon we'll need it for frigates and cannons.
I should have read about uranium, but we can wait for that, even if after combustion it opens the modern Navy. (no more true in BtS)
Edit:
crossposted with Balth.
I do NOT think a diplo is a good idea, and it's a great risk too.
Now the biggest Civ should be Russia, which is friendly with a ton of big AIs.
Even if all our continent votes for us we can't hope to win, also if you add Cyrus to the "friends".
But we can discuss this later, after my TS.
I was forgetting: i'll try to cultivate the relations with Liz, i think she's our best bet.
WT, we should have room for another NW: do we plan to build IW? we can consider it only if we have coal, perhaps.
I'm concerned that if we wait too much the AI can PA each other, and the risk is to not find a partner.
I agree that Cyrus can be better than Liz or Asoka and the relations with him will improve since his favourite civic is Repr.
For the same reason (favourite civic, but FR this time) i see Liz better than Asoka.
I see Liz as the best possible PA partner 'cause she's our neighbor and she can actually help in a war to give her some room.
I guess that we must DoW GW right after the PA pact with her, then see what we can do with Asoka.
If everything goes well she can have 4 cities, if it goes very well (wipe both GW and Asoka) she can have 6, and very good.
Roster
Blubmuz - UP
Merum - on deck
Sabre
dutchfire
culdeus
Sweetacshon
Balthalion
greatbeyond
WastinTime - resting
I hope the roster is correct, since Merum asked for another swap i'll play in the weekend.
I think i'll finish that mace, then build research, and continue the path to computers.
I don't think it will be on my TS, but in case do we build Broadway after electricity?
Worker: connect furs and iron, soon we'll need it for frigates and cannons.
I should have read about uranium, but we can wait for that, even if after combustion it opens the modern Navy. (no more true in BtS)
Edit:
crossposted with Balth.
I do NOT think a diplo is a good idea, and it's a great risk too.
Now the biggest Civ should be Russia, which is friendly with a ton of big AIs.
Even if all our continent votes for us we can't hope to win, also if you add Cyrus to the "friends".
But we can discuss this later, after my TS.
I was forgetting: i'll try to cultivate the relations with Liz, i think she's our best bet.
WT, we should have room for another NW: do we plan to build IW? we can consider it only if we have coal, perhaps.
Room for another NW? There is no limit as far as I know. I think BTS has a limit of 5.
I say no Broadway.
Furs are already connected and traded.
Agree no diplo victory.
PA with Liz? Liz actually has 3 cities, not 2, so she'd be up to 7 if we somehow killed got her those 4. I don't see this happening, but maybe I don't war enough on Deity.
Here are a couple problems. If we get her washington's cities, the culture pressure from Asoka will make them useless. The #1 reason I don't like Liz for this game is that 3rd city. I'm afraid that she'll start a space part in there and it has no production. Probably won't have a factory, etc. I didn't look too close, maybe the city will be OK after our PA because it will get the fat cross that we currently own with our culture. I'd rather she had only 2. In my test game my PA partner had 2 cities and we launched in 1750AD, so 2 cities can work.
I say no Broadway.
Furs are already connected and traded.
Agree no diplo victory.
PA with Liz? Liz actually has 3 cities, not 2, so she'd be up to 7 if we somehow killed got her those 4. I don't see this happening, but maybe I don't war enough on Deity.
Here are a couple problems. If we get her washington's cities, the culture pressure from Asoka will make them useless. The #1 reason I don't like Liz for this game is that 3rd city. I'm afraid that she'll start a space part in there and it has no production. Probably won't have a factory, etc. I didn't look too close, maybe the city will be OK after our PA because it will get the fat cross that we currently own with our culture. I'd rather she had only 2. In my test game my PA partner had 2 cities and we launched in 1750AD, so 2 cities can work.
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
There is no way 1750AD wins a laurel in this game. We have to find a way to do it faster.
We won't build Apollo, so we won't be working on the same parts.
I see the point about other PA's. We should keep an eye on the other defensive pacts. If Cyrus, Liz, Asoka never get another one, we are in no hurry. Then we're back to the question of Should we hurry? You said "The PA made a huge difference in research speed". Not sure exactly what you meant. If joining the PA makes your research faster, that means it makes your partner slower. I think we'll probably sign it when it becomes available with the partner of our choice. So IF Asoka is our choice then waiting an extra 10 turns is not a big deal. But if we like Cyrus, we'll get it earlier. (BTW Cyrus has a couple cities that scare me too, no production). I feel like I'm rambling, it's late, let's just see how it develops, we may never get a DP with Asoka.
Not sure I'd bet on that. I have the current fastest finish on Tiny/Deity/Normal at 1595 AD. That's under absolutely ideal conditions. 1750 is only ~20 turns longer. I think <1800 is a good finish. Maybe there's another victory condition that can finish earlier, but for Space, we should be proud of sub-1800. Heck I'll be proud of us for just winning.
Did anyone manage to get any win on any test game for any victory condition ?
Is there any way to tell what VC the others might be going for? The power graph might indicate major military from that one team--either that or they signed a PA, but I don't know how to read those graphs very well.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
WT, Liz' 3rd city (the icy one) has 2 hills for production now. I don't know how a PA works: can she work our iron and other tiles after a PA?
In the city count i consider to raze NY (useless under any aspect) and let her take only Wash.
The graph gazing is never easy, just i'm surprised by that jump in power by XTeam and Trash Team.
I can guess they signed a PA.
In the city count i consider to raze NY (useless under any aspect) and let her take only Wash.
The graph gazing is never easy, just i'm surprised by that jump in power by XTeam and Trash Team.
I can guess they signed a PA.
Attached is the test game I played at 1520 AD. You have 4 DPs. PA should become available in a few turns. Asoka and Liz already have Rocketry and should have Apollo in 10 turns. In my game (1750 AD) I waited around 20 turns to sign. Why don't we all try some alternate endings and see how they turn out. Maybe signing earlier is better with this strange 18 civ setup.
Don't forget the fun of post-PA. Send some workers over there and change their land improvments. There's a lot to learn if you've never done that.
And don't count out signing with Mansa or Cyrus just because they don't have rocketry yet. One time I had a game where mansa built Apollo in 1085 AD, but he was doing fine on his own, so I picked someone else who didn't do apollo until almost 1300 AD. We still won in the 1400's. With so few cities though, it might be best to have someone with early apollo.
Don't forget the fun of post-PA. Send some workers over there and change their land improvments. There's a lot to learn if you've never done that.
And don't count out signing with Mansa or Cyrus just because they don't have rocketry yet. One time I had a game where mansa built Apollo in 1085 AD, but he was doing fine on his own, so I picked someone else who didn't do apollo until almost 1300 AD. We still won in the 1400's. With so few cities though, it might be best to have someone with early apollo.
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
Blub, in a PA, all cities will work their fat crosses, without regard to cultural influence. Liz's city borders will expand out to normal. I'm not sure what happens when city radii overlap, but that's what happens when they don't.
I'm willing to bet that some of our competitors have already secured PAs well ahead of us. I respect what you've done in solo HoF games, WT, but this is a completely different game, and some of our competitors are extraordinarily talented and inventive. I believe the winner of this game will have a date prior to 1500AD. I'm not convinced we're taking the actions needed to do that. In a SGOTM, we should never be "in no hurry".
So what are we going to do to win? What are the objectives?
1. Choose a PA partner.
2. Secure a PA.
3. If our PA partner is one of the small civs on our continent, then we need to start a war to make space for them and make them competitive. This probably means that at least half the civs on our continent need to cease to exist.
4. Get Apollo built, either by us or by our PA partner.
5. Ensure we have the requisite resources (Aluminum)
6. Build the spaceship as quickly as possible.
If we're taking actions that don't meet these objectives, then we're wasting resources and effort.
I'm willing to bet that some of our competitors have already secured PAs well ahead of us. I respect what you've done in solo HoF games, WT, but this is a completely different game, and some of our competitors are extraordinarily talented and inventive. I believe the winner of this game will have a date prior to 1500AD. I'm not convinced we're taking the actions needed to do that. In a SGOTM, we should never be "in no hurry".
So what are we going to do to win? What are the objectives?
1. Choose a PA partner.
2. Secure a PA.
3. If our PA partner is one of the small civs on our continent, then we need to start a war to make space for them and make them competitive. This probably means that at least half the civs on our continent need to cease to exist.
4. Get Apollo built, either by us or by our PA partner.
5. Ensure we have the requisite resources (Aluminum)
6. Build the spaceship as quickly as possible.
If we're taking actions that don't meet these objectives, then we're wasting resources and effort.
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