SGOTM 07 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
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BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Merum, i couldn't have said it better!!!
I disagree only on the "half of the civs".
I guess that Asoka is enough, but let's see.
I'm targeting Liz, then we'll see.
I'm goin' to play my TS in few hours, i'll trade the possible.
TS played, no trades and no noticeable events.
Sorry but i reinstalled from scratch and something went wrong with the autolog.
turnlog and what the autolog gave me:
the save
Some note:
IBT Alex and Cathy asked to join their wars, refused.
Hatty asked for Astro, gave her, hope it can help in her war with Russia.
Asoka gave me his WM, but he "doesn't like us enough" for a DP.
Cyrus asked for Corp+gold for HBR, declined.
We can trade Physics for RP with Cyrus, but i think it's too much.
Nobody wants trade Chem yet.
Liz has Democracy, but "she's got her reasons" to not trade it (SoL?)
I disagree only on the "half of the civs".
I guess that Asoka is enough, but let's see.
I'm targeting Liz, then we'll see.
I'm goin' to play my TS in few hours, i'll trade the possible.
TS played, no trades and no noticeable events.
Sorry but i reinstalled from scratch and something went wrong with the autolog.
turnlog and what the autolog gave me:
Spoiler :
Some note:
IBT Alex and Cathy asked to join their wars, refused.
Hatty asked for Astro, gave her, hope it can help in her war with Russia.
Asoka gave me his WM, but he "doesn't like us enough" for a DP.
Cyrus asked for Corp+gold for HBR, declined.
We can trade Physics for RP with Cyrus, but i think it's too much.
Nobody wants trade Chem yet.
Liz has Democracy, but "she's got her reasons" to not trade it (SoL?)
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
Permanent Alliances are unlocked by communism, right? I agree that we have some brilliant opponents out there, but, while I wouldn't go so far as to say it is impossible, I do think it is unlikely anyone got a PA by, say, 1000 AD (or even 1200 AD). They would have to be both burning up the research (getting both Military Tradition and Communism by 1000 AD would be a real trick) while at the same time successfully carrying out a sustained war. Anyway, Murky is amazing and some of the stuff Cactus Pete does in the XOTMs is awesome too, but I think there must be a different explanation for the way their charts look.
I'm not convinced this is a "need to" requirement. I'm not saying it can't be the right way to go, just that right now I think we can still win the game fairly handily without going this route. Looks like it is time for more testing.
Like I said, I only have that one game to go on, but the way I did it was to ask Liz to research the same tech I was researching. If Liz started researching something off the tech path I wanted, I went into the diplo screen and asked her "Why don't you research tech X?" With both of us researching the same tech it made a huge difference in the number of turns it would take to discover that particular tech. This meant that even with just two or three cities (two in my test game, iirc), there was never a backlog of space parts to complete. I teched directly for the engine to get the expensive parts out of the way and saved the casings for last. By the time the next SS tech arrived, Liz had completed whatever part she'd been working on from the previous SS tech discovery. Even with just two cities we burned it up. No other AI PA combination ended up with much more than a couple of casings done. Of course, in my test there were no twelve-city mega PA civ combinations out there competing with us, but I still don't think they'd be able to keep up. The AI doesn't seem to be nearly as smart about end-game dashes to the finish line as it does with, say, boxing in your civ during the intial city settlement phase.
This is probably the best way to figure out what to do. Murky and the others may be brilliant, but I noticed from their past SGs that they also play a sh*tload of test games too -- way more than we've played. I'll upload one of the saves from my test game here too, just for good measure. I can't remember when I signed the PA, but I'll upload it the turn before so it is possible to play it differently.
EDIT: Attachment Added
Okay, the autosave is from 1600 AD. I have DPs with both Liz and Asoka. In my game, Liz asked me for a PA in between turns 1605-1610 and I took her up on the offer. Liz has only two cities -- she never settled the ice colony in my test, but the other two cities are placed the same as in the real game. Hope it can be useful somehow...
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
Just had a look at that save. Four DPs and you haven't discovered Military Tradition yet???
Of course, when I saw you already have both Genetics and Ecology and haven't even signed a PA yet my reaction was a little different.
Obviously, I still have a lot to learn about this game...
Oh, about my test game save...
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Just one note about early PAs by other teams.
We prioritized Physics and the path to computer, and i agreed on that and still convinced it was a good choice.
But if other teams chosen Communism after SM, they can have a PA before 1000 AD.
What about break the road to Computers for a detour on communism?
Usually the AI trade for it very late, 'cause they try to build the Kremlin.
And you can't know if our potential partners will research it soon enough.
Also we must speed up the TS rate: July 14th is closer, some of us are in vacation (i'll be in Barcelona from July 1st to 8th). If we agree on the PA partmner choice, there's not much to discuss: just keep the potential partner happy, trade the possible. Unless we have some war.
We prioritized Physics and the path to computer, and i agreed on that and still convinced it was a good choice.
But if other teams chosen Communism after SM, they can have a PA before 1000 AD.
What about break the road to Computers for a detour on communism?
Usually the AI trade for it very late, 'cause they try to build the Kremlin.
And you can't know if our potential partners will research it soon enough.
Also we must speed up the TS rate: July 14th is closer, some of us are in vacation (i'll be in Barcelona from July 1st to 8th). If we agree on the PA partmner choice, there's not much to discuss: just keep the potential partner happy, trade the possible. Unless we have some war.
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
Here is my proposal for the turnset:
1. Research communism, then switch back to radio.
2. Build 3.5 maces
3. Watch for potential trades for chemistry
4. Stay out of trouble
Communism: We can research this, then either trade or gift it to our chosen PA partner. It's a 6 turn side trip that I feel is worthwhile. Catherine can research this now, and for reasons stated below I think we need to beat her to it.
Macemen: Some military strength will be useful, and maces can be promoted to CR before being upgraded to rifles, very handy. This is in keeping with the assumption that we'll need to clear some space for a PA partner.
There's not much else to do at this point. If time constraints are a concern, the obvious strategy is to play longer turnsets. 7 turns in peacetime at this point in the game is frankly a little ridiculous anyway, considering the amount of time and discussion that transpires between turnsets.
I'll leave some discussion time before I play, at least 12 hours, more likely 24.
Analysis of potential PA partners:
Cyrus:
Pro: Obviously strong and has a well-established foothold on his landmass.
Pro: Appears to be teching at a decent rate
Con: Risk of one of his aggressive neighbors attacking him is relatively high (This worries me about the PA with him, frankly, but it's a necessary evil for a PA)
Con: On the other side of the world, mutual protection in wartime will be difficult if not non-existent.
Note: Catherine is friendly with Cy, and Cy is pleased with Catherine. We may need this PA simply to deny it from Cathy.
Asoka:
Pro: Techs quickly
Pro: Close, good for mutual defense.
Con: Small territory, may not be able to keep up in a space race vs the other continent
Con: Is a military wuss
Liz:
Pro: Close, good for mutual defense
Pro: Seems to be keeping up in tech
Pro: Is aggressive and willing to war on some of our neighbors if necessary
Con: Small size, may not be able to keep up in a space race
Con: Seems to tech a little slower than Asoka
1. Research communism, then switch back to radio.
2. Build 3.5 maces
3. Watch for potential trades for chemistry
4. Stay out of trouble
Communism: We can research this, then either trade or gift it to our chosen PA partner. It's a 6 turn side trip that I feel is worthwhile. Catherine can research this now, and for reasons stated below I think we need to beat her to it.
Macemen: Some military strength will be useful, and maces can be promoted to CR before being upgraded to rifles, very handy. This is in keeping with the assumption that we'll need to clear some space for a PA partner.
There's not much else to do at this point. If time constraints are a concern, the obvious strategy is to play longer turnsets. 7 turns in peacetime at this point in the game is frankly a little ridiculous anyway, considering the amount of time and discussion that transpires between turnsets.
I'll leave some discussion time before I play, at least 12 hours, more likely 24.
Analysis of potential PA partners:
Cyrus:
Pro: Obviously strong and has a well-established foothold on his landmass.
Pro: Appears to be teching at a decent rate
Con: Risk of one of his aggressive neighbors attacking him is relatively high (This worries me about the PA with him, frankly, but it's a necessary evil for a PA)
Con: On the other side of the world, mutual protection in wartime will be difficult if not non-existent.
Note: Catherine is friendly with Cy, and Cy is pleased with Catherine. We may need this PA simply to deny it from Cathy.
Asoka:
Pro: Techs quickly
Pro: Close, good for mutual defense.
Con: Small territory, may not be able to keep up in a space race vs the other continent
Con: Is a military wuss
Liz:
Pro: Close, good for mutual defense
Pro: Seems to be keeping up in tech
Pro: Is aggressive and willing to war on some of our neighbors if necessary
Con: Small size, may not be able to keep up in a space race
Con: Seems to tech a little slower than Asoka
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Merum, i agree on your analysis on the PA partner.
The reasons i prefer Liz or Asoka to Cy are mainly our actual mutual help in a war.
The reason i prefer Liz to Asoka are that she's a better fighter, and redcoats are unstoppable by other units of the modern era.
The reasons i prefer Liz or Asoka to Cy are mainly our actual mutual help in a war.
The reason i prefer Liz to Asoka are that she's a better fighter, and redcoats are unstoppable by other units of the modern era.
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
I haven't run a PA with Asoka, but I'm wondering if we'd have any trouble getting him to build spaceship parts. I think Asoka generally techs faster than Liz, but Liz was all over the spaceship in my test, which is a mark in her favor, IMHO. Your concern about the distance to Cyrus is probably justified. We need more tests, but where to find the time... 
No Communism! I don't see what good it does. We can't sign a PA until at least 40 turns after MilTrad. If we can get it free (which we always can--the AI gets communism before MilTrad) why wouldn't we?
You may see it as "we're in no hurry" to get a PA, but I see it as we are strategically staying out of the way. This SG is probably not like any other you've played, it's Deity. and the Deity AI gets a lot of advantages. An early PA can severely handicap them. Those early PAs might be what kills those other teams.
I was going to recommend longer TS's too.
RE: test game. As you saw, I was testing to see how long it would take to get MilTrad in trade. I should probably upload something 60 turns sooner, so you can get MT earlier and DP earlier. This will allow you to get a PA and then attempt a war to get space. I think this won't work and just slows down our research. Someone has to try a war before we go that route. Anyone interested in trying this war strat?
I also agree with the assesment that the AI doesn't know how to race to the finish. I'm not afraid of any other PAs. We can pick just about anyone and win, it's just a matter of who will be a couple turns faster than the others. That a good thing to try out. Play the test game with Liz, then again with Asoka. You win either way and no one is even close.
You may see it as "we're in no hurry" to get a PA, but I see it as we are strategically staying out of the way. This SG is probably not like any other you've played, it's Deity. and the Deity AI gets a lot of advantages. An early PA can severely handicap them. Those early PAs might be what kills those other teams.
I was going to recommend longer TS's too.
RE: test game. As you saw, I was testing to see how long it would take to get MilTrad in trade. I should probably upload something 60 turns sooner, so you can get MT earlier and DP earlier. This will allow you to get a PA and then attempt a war to get space. I think this won't work and just slows down our research. Someone has to try a war before we go that route. Anyone interested in trying this war strat?
I also agree with the assesment that the AI doesn't know how to race to the finish. I'm not afraid of any other PAs. We can pick just about anyone and win, it's just a matter of who will be a couple turns faster than the others. That a good thing to try out. Play the test game with Liz, then again with Asoka. You win either way and no one is even close.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
No experience with PAs, so: isn't enough an AI is friendly?
You can be right about other teams, some more hints on how a PA works are welcome.
I was wondering about longer TS, so starting from Merum, i propose to go for 10 turns.
If someone DoW us and we're in actual trouble, please stop to inform the team.
You can be right about other teams, some more hints on how a PA works are welcome.
I was wondering about longer TS, so starting from Merum, i propose to go for 10 turns.
If someone DoW us and we're in actual trouble, please stop to inform the team.
culdeus
Emperor
Yeah, I'm totally in the dark in this variant. This is something I've never really even attempted or really understand at all. One thing I really don't understand is the lack of hurry for communism. Why does it take 40 turns to get one once trading for it?
What are really the odds of winning in this way if two other AI get going on a PA before we can find one?
Here's a save at t133. That should give you enough time to switch to MT and get a PA by t180. Then there's time for a war. On the last test game I posted, there's not enough time for all that.
If you wanted to more closely emulate our game, we're looking at a PA around t195- t200.
If you wanted to more closely emulate our game, we're looking at a PA around t195- t200.
We need to be in a DP for 40 turns. We got both DPs before t160, so we can't sign a PA until around turn 195-200. There is no point to research Communism before then. If we can't get it free by ~t193, then we can research it.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
So, no need the PA partner is friendly, but to share a DP for at least 40 turns?
Or both?
In this case we can forget Asoka, and the only target remains Liz: not only she's already friendly, but the relations will improve, 'cause the "you wisely chosen your civics" will improve with time.
If you're sure 40 turns of DP are enough, and pleased/friendly do NOT count we can wait for communism.
If friendly is enough, what's the matter to research a tech which can give us more trade opportunities?
There's another problem in our game: to keep up with the big dogs in the other continent we need to make room for our PA partner: waiting too much can not bring her the benefits we want.
This is why i wanna be SURE before to decide to delay communism: in PA we can start to plan a war, without, better be good and quiet.
WT, reading more carefully your last posts i see you won with no need to war.
Please be more extensive on this point, too.
You are our strategist, and we (me at least) trust you, even if you can seem wrong looking at the graphs, but
Please be sure of your answer, this is a key decision we can't miss.
In other words, if we win we'll have the glory, if we lose, you'll have the insults
There're no attachments to your post.
Or both?
In this case we can forget Asoka, and the only target remains Liz: not only she's already friendly, but the relations will improve, 'cause the "you wisely chosen your civics" will improve with time.
If you're sure 40 turns of DP are enough, and pleased/friendly do NOT count we can wait for communism.
If friendly is enough, what's the matter to research a tech which can give us more trade opportunities?
There's another problem in our game: to keep up with the big dogs in the other continent we need to make room for our PA partner: waiting too much can not bring her the benefits we want.
This is why i wanna be SURE before to decide to delay communism: in PA we can start to plan a war, without, better be good and quiet.
WT, reading more carefully your last posts i see you won with no need to war.
Please be more extensive on this point, too.
You are our strategist, and we (me at least) trust you, even if you can seem wrong looking at the graphs, but
Please be sure of your answer, this is a key decision we can't miss.
In other words, if we win we'll have the glory, if we lose, you'll have the insults
There're no attachments to your post.
You don't necessarily need Friendly. It depends on the AI. Cyrus signed at +6, Asoka needs +10 it seems. There might be a random factor in there. Either way we MUST have the DP for exactly 40 turns -- it's the same on every game speed (bug?).
War: Correct, I didn't use a war and I'm pretty sure it will only be a distraction toward our goal. That's why I'd really like it if someone would start at t133 (I attached the file now.) and try to get a launch faster than 1750 AD.
With a few trial runs I hope WE are confident in OUR strategy. I am prepared to take the blame though if no one has time to play. I'll try myself if I get the time. Currently on vacation, but I did bring my entire computer (and Civ disk)
War: Correct, I didn't use a war and I'm pretty sure it will only be a distraction toward our goal. That's why I'd really like it if someone would start at t133 (I attached the file now.) and try to get a launch faster than 1750 AD.
With a few trial runs I hope WE are confident in OUR strategy. I am prepared to take the blame though if no one has time to play. I'll try myself if I get the time. Currently on vacation, but I did bring my entire computer (and Civ disk)
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
To the best of my knowledge it's a combination of at-war and DP turns. Frankly I think it's a stupid risk to forgo the 6 turns of research that it would take to get communism on an "I hope this works" strategy. Better to have the ability to control our destiny than to bet our entire strategy on the behavior of the questionable AI.
It's a team decision, so put it to a vote. Once there's enough votes either way, I'll play the turnset. I vote to research communism now.
It's a team decision, so put it to a vote. Once there's enough votes either way, I'll play the turnset. I vote to research communism now.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
I vote for research communism now.
after that we can see who want to sign a PA and who not, and we can decide who choose and our strategy.
after that we can see who want to sign a PA and who not, and we can decide who choose and our strategy.
I must not be explaining it properly. Communism does NOTHING that will get us a PA any sooner than turn 195. It does not let us control our destiny. The only thing it will do is show in bright red print, that they won't sign a PA yet.
Mutual struggle and DP turns do not add, but even if they did that won't help because we have not shared a struggle with Liz or Cyrus. Let's plan on getting Communism around turn 195, so research it on t190 if we haven't gotten it already.
I'm planning to run a test from t133 and get a PA quickly. I'm predicting that game will be a disaster because me and my partner will be shunned by the rest of the AI and we'll launch later than 1750, maybe even get beat. This will show that we should not even be in any hurry to sign that PA. It could also prove to be the best way to go. We'll see. Anyone have any test results to report?
Mutual struggle and DP turns do not add, but even if they did that won't help because we have not shared a struggle with Liz or Cyrus. Let's plan on getting Communism around turn 195, so research it on t190 if we haven't gotten it already.
I'm planning to run a test from t133 and get a PA quickly. I'm predicting that game will be a disaster because me and my partner will be shunned by the rest of the AI and we'll launch later than 1750, maybe even get beat. This will show that we should not even be in any hurry to sign that PA. It could also prove to be the best way to go. We'll see. Anyone have any test results to report?
culdeus
Emperor
I'll mess around with a test tonight. More for my learning than to likely come up with any grand epiphany. I seriously had no idea that you had to have a DP for 40 before a PA is even an option.
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
This is one major reason why I find it hard to believe that the other teams have signed a PA yet at all. The team farthest along (Chokonuts) is showing they've completed turn 190 or so. How could they have registered the 40 turns of DP for a PA by then? Maybe, I suppose, if they engaged in a long war together with a specific AI (picked way early) and then researched communism (or their PA partner did) -- but that is quite a long shot, isn't it? We've been going full-out research except for one brief distraction from George, and we're barely at the point where we could have gotten communism now (and as a result lost the race to Physics). I don't see how they could have both kept ahead of the tech race enough to stay in control of the tech trading game AND fought a prolonged war while allied to one specific AI. I think we're in danger of letting the charts, which are always a bit difficult to interpret correctly, scare us into abandoning our game plan. Never mind the charts. Remember that power graph? Why should having iron working register the same as having a large army? I don't know, but it does. I suspect the charts can be as deceiving as a politician's poll numbers. Playing test games may not provide all the answers, but I think it gives us a heck of a lot better information to go on than that befuddling numbers game.
Not yet, but I'm getting more motivated.
I vote "NO" on communism, unless someone can bring some better evidence to the table showing why we need it now.
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