SGOTM 07 - Fifth Element

[WastinTime]

At the point where the space ship starts there is literally, absolutely, totally, nothing to do but wait it out. We should be able to give one part to the effort and then just build navy the rest of the time. And if we want to go without a navy. A couple of tactical nukes on cyrus or cathy will be, if nothing else, fun.

We can shave a couple turns off by using our workers on their land

 

[Merum]

If we're not going to build anything else, then we should contribute as many parts as we can build. It's just dumb to build ships or research when we can be building rocket parts.

 

[culdeus]

If we're not going to build anything else, then we should contribute as many parts as we can build. It's just dumb to build ships or research when we can be building rocket parts.

Given we have one city and it ain't that great production wise. We'll be able to squeeze out at most two parts. And that's a stretch. We don't want to get in the way of liz getting the big stuff out. It might be just one.

 

[Merum]

Given we have one city and it ain't that great production wise. We'll be able to squeeze out at most two parts. And that's a stretch. We don't want to get in the way of liz getting the big stuff out. It might be just one.

Well then, we should build two parts. In a PA, we can see production in our partner's cities. If we can build something faster and not duplicate, then we should do it. If it shaves even one turn off the end of the game, then it's worthwhile.

 

[WastinTime]

Given we have one city and it ain't that great production wise. We'll be able to squeeze out at most two parts. And that's a stretch. We don't want to get in the way of liz getting the big stuff out. It might be just one.

Correct. Some of the big parts are 20, 40, even 100 turns in some of my games. Liz can do them in 5 or 10 turns. We wouldn't want to block Liz from building a unique part. We'll probably get out a casing or a thruster....like you said it's a stretch. We better decide soon if we want factory, power, etc. or even IW. Can we afford all that unhealthiness? I can go either way, production city or not. Whatever, ya'll feel more comfortable with.

I might be without internet for the weekend.

 

[dutchfire]

I'll be on holiday starting monday, for about one and a half week.

I don't think we should build spaceship parts. Research is the bottleneck, isn't it? The only parts we *could* do are things like Casings, but Liz'll finish them way ahead of us reseaching the last tech.

 

[MacBalt]

@ GreatBeyond: I think Sabre said he is out for the time being because of his work schedule. If he doesn't check in by the end of the holiday weekend I think you should consider just taking the save. Don't think we're really in any hurry now though, with the deadline extended to August 24.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Not much to say, really. I never bothered in tests to switch into production mode or build IW due to health reasons, but may have built a casing, not sure it is better than maxing science, tho.

 

[dutchfire]

@greatbeyond: I think you should play it

 

[greatbeyond]

I will post an outline tonight and play tomorrow

 

[greatbeyond]

PLAN for Turns 201 - 211: (Balthalion, I have copied your format, thanks for being generous! )
Turns to Play: Finish 201, play 202-211, stop before ending turn 211.

Research Path: Fission then Refrigeration (for Supermarket - should give us +4 health)? or Mass Media? (so we can build the UN) or something else?

Build Order: Do we want to build a Market or Bank, or Riflemen. We are only getting 9 beakers from producing Science. I f we boost our income, it should produce more science ( a 50% increase (84Gold/Beakers more vs 9 - money is 1 Beaker per Gold )

City Priority = Growth & Health: Population = 18

Tiles to Work: (2xCrab, Sheep, Deer, Fur, Marble/windmill, 6xGrass Towns, Plains Town, 3xCoast, 1xScientists, Stone Quarry (this is our current configuration); growth in 18.) No Changes

Inherited Turn:

Worker: Build Oil Well

Military: I think we should upgrade our LBs to Riflemen or build a couple, we have more than enough money.

Technology Trading: Right now no one will trade us anything we have to have. Things we should consider trading for:
Cyrus has Assembly Line
Saladin has Railroad
Catherine has Rocketry
We have techs that they do not, what would be acceptable?

Technology gifts? -- Will gift or trade away minor techs for gold.

Resource Trading: No new resource trades. Will not windmill over the stone as we are currently selling it to Asoka.

Civics Changes: Should we switch out of Serfdom and/or Free Religion. Our Workers have very little work left to do. Would switching to Caste System be better? Switching from Free Religion to Pacifism would reduce our research by 10% but increase our GP rate by 100% thus more scientists. Is it worth the trade-off?

Political Demands:
Do not give in to any demand for Radio (unless it comes from Liz).
Do not give in to any demands that would require anarchy (religion or civics change).
Give in to all other demands for resources or techs.
Do not join any wars.
Do not give in to demands to cancel any deals (unless the request comes from Liz, Asoka, or Cyrus and it appears to make sense for us).

I am thinking we should sign a PA with Elizabeth now. Catherine is not happy with us and is threatening with her Artillery. We need to have at least 1 or 2 ships far enough out to give us advance warning if she sends a flotilla our way. She is the only one who will sign a PA. Once we get the PA should we consider a Defensive Pact with someone else?
Is it possible to have a PA with more than 1 Civ?

 

[WastinTime]

We're getting around 3 gold for the stone, I say windmill it.

I don't think we have the tech for oil wells.

I don't understand your comment about Market/Bank and beakers for gold.

We can only have 1 PA and let's not consider signing until the Fur deal is cancelled.

No civics changes.

Only trade Fission to Liz. Maybe hang on to computers too.

 

[MacBalt]

PLAN for Turns 201 - 211: (Balthalion, I have copied your format, thanks for being generous! )

You are welcome GB. Thanks for the detailed plan!

Research Path: Fission then Refrigeration (for Supermarket - should give us +4 health)? or Mass Media? (so we can build the UN) or something else?

I'd advise Fission and then Refrigeration. We were hoping Liz might do Mass Media & the UN on her own.

Build Order: Do we want to build a Market or Bank, or Riflemen. We are only getting 9 beakers from producing Science. I f we boost our income, it should produce more science

Gold (revenue) and science are separate and an either/or choice, so as long as we're running 100% science and 0% gold (hopefully for the rest of the game), a bank or market will give us no extra gold from commerce. Plus, we should still be able to get all the gold we need from trades. More military will cost us more upkeep, but that would be a better choice if you want to build a rifleman. (Infantry is right around the corner now tho...) There just isn't anything we need to build right now...

Worker: Build Oil Well

We'll need combustion to do that (as WT pointed out in his reply).

Military: I think we should upgrade our LBs to Riflemen or build a couple, we have more than enough money.

Yes, but Infantry will be available once we get assembly line, and that should come soon now (I think). Maybe it would be better to wait and upgrade directly to infantry?

Technology Trading: Right now no one will trade us anything we have to have. Things we should consider trading for:
Cyrus has Assembly Line
Saladin has Railroad
Catherine has Rocketry
We have techs that they do not, what would be acceptable?

Liz already has Rocketry (and we've already researched it to within three turns of completion), so don't trade for that (unless the deal is very good, I suppose). WastinTime indicated that Liz is likely to research Assembly Line on her own, so we probably shouldn't give away too much to get that now. I think trying to trade for techs on the Railroad-Combustion path is our best bet. I would have said to use Fission, but I see from his last post that WastinTime wants us to only trade that to Liz, so maybe try to use techs we already have to get RR + Combustion, etc? (Can you tell us more about what you are thinking with regard to Fission, WastinTime? Also, just FYI: I gave Computers to Liz for Artillery in the last turnset.)

One idea --> If we finish the three turns we have left to research Rocketry, that might trade very well. I suspect Cyrus might take Rocketry/Bio/Artillery for Assembly Line, and we might be able to use it to begin trading up the Railroad-Combustion tech path too. Any thoughts?

Resource Trading: No new resource trades. Will not windmill over the stone as we are currently selling it to Asoka.

I agree with WT that it is time to give up on Asoka as a potential PA partner -- which means (if others agree) it is time to break this trade and go ahead and windmill over the stone tile.

Civics Changes: Should we switch out of Serfdom and/or Free Religion. Our Workers have very little work left to do. Would switching to Caste System be better? Switching from Free Religion to Pacifism would reduce our research by 10% but increase our GP rate by 100% thus more scientists. Is it worth the trade-off?

Your observation is correct, but I don't think it is worth spending the time in anarchy during this critical pre-Permanent Alliance period when research time is at such a premium. Probably better to wait on any civics changes, as WT indicated.

I am thinking we should sign a PA with Elizabeth now. Catherine is not happy with us and is threatening with her Artillery. We need to have at least 1 or 2 ships far enough out to give us advance warning if she sends a flotilla our way. She is the only one who will sign a PA. Once we get the PA should we consider a Defensive Pact with someone else?

Based on the fact that technology gets more expensive in a PA (and based my test game experiments), I think it would be better to wait on the PA until we've played technology broker a little while longer (again, following WT's strategy). Our remaining defense pacts should hold Catherine off a bit longer, plus she is across the ocean, which (given the vanilla AI) should mean any attack she does manage to launch will be fairly pitiful. Maybe you should build a ship instead of building beakers or a rifleman?

EDIT: One more suggestion: Keep an eye out for anyone else getting a defense pact with Liz. I don't think it will happen (because Asoka is currently at war), but we should note the turn if it does happen to make sure no one can steal Liz away from us before we get to the PA altar.

Is it possible to have a PA with more than 1 Civ?

Nope -- only one PA partner.

Great work on the write-up, GB. This gives us an excellent basis for discussing our options at this point in the game!

 

[WastinTime]

My thought on Fission is I don't want Liz to get beat to Fusion. That free GE is nice in case she starts some long wonder. We could probably trade it if we have to, but only if it gets us a tech that Liz does not have.

 

[greatbeyond]

I may be wrong about the Market/Bank. Checking the city screen , every gold we earn is directly converted to 1 beaker of science. My thinking is the more money we make, +50% Bank, +25% Market, the more beakers we get for science. Balthalion, Is what you mean that the bonus from Market and Bank only count if you are producing Gold? Or is what you're talking about is having the slider at 100% thus we can't go any higher. Perhaps I am confused on this.

I understand the hesitancy to upgrade to Rifleman when Infantry is not far away. Does it cost more to upgrade twice versus one time?

Worker - Windmill the Stone, after which Worker will be idle.

Don't trade Fission.

Wait on civics change.....I wouldn't wait too long.

I'll check our Navy and see if we need another ship for picket duty.

I'm thinking that we don't want to give Cyrus or anyone else help on the Space Race.

I like the idea of going refrigeration for the boost in health which will lead to more Population.

My point about the PA with Elizabeth is that several turns ago more people were willing to sign a Defensive pact with us and, IIRC even a PA, (with Asoka?) From checking Diplomacy, people are distancing themselves from us and that doesn't strike me as a good thing.

 

[MacBalt]

My thinking is the more money we make, +50% Bank, +25% Market, the more beakers we get for science. Balthalion, Is what you mean that the bonus from Market and Bank only count if you are producing Gold?

Yes. My understanding is that the +% from banks and markets only apply to the gold you are producing (either from the slider and/or from specialists). So, if we are producing 0% gold from commerce (because of running 100% science/) and we aren't getting any gold in some other way (i.e. from merchant specialists), then 0 gold +50% is still zero.

Does it cost more to upgrade twice versus one time?

I'm not sure, but I don't think it does. It looks like 180 base gold to upgrade LB to Rifles and 90 base gold to go from Rifles to Infantry. IIRC the upgrade cost to go directly from LB to Infantry will just be 180 + 90 = 270, but I'm not sure. There may be a discount, or, more likely, I'm just trying too hard to economize on clicks.

Worker - Windmill the Stone, after which Worker will be idle.

I don't know if it will make any difference relevant to our game-play, but you might cancel the deal in the "Active" button on the diplomacy screen first.

Don't trade Fission.

But you should give it to Liz as soon as you can. I'm not sure if it would be better just to gift it to her right away or to try to wait a few turns for her to get something we can trade. I'm thinking if we've settled on her as our PA partner then we should just gift it to her right away.

I'm thinking that we don't want to give Cyrus or anyone else help on the Space Race.

I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that Cyrus is going to PA-up with Cathy, and Cathy already has rocketry so no harm done trading it to Cyrus. I doubt very much that any of the others (including Asoka) have any chance to beat us into space unless something unexpected goes very wrong with our game plan (i.e. Liz falls madly in love with HC ).

My point about the PA with Elizabeth is that several turns ago more people were willing to sign a Defensive pact with us and, IIRC even a PA, (with Asoka?) From checking Diplomacy, people are distancing themselves from us and that doesn't strike me as a good thing.

Liz just became willing to sign a PA at the end of the last turnset. Other civs have started to dislike us more both because of our multiple defense pacts with other civs (we had 3 a short time ago) and because several civs have been eliminated recently -- reducing the "n" for calculations the game makes about diplomatic attitudes like that (if I understand this game concept correctly). We should still be in great with Liz and our other defense pact partner. The only real danger to our PA at this point (I think) is if someone else gets a DP with Liz and tries to woo her. Even then, we should have 40 turns or so before she'd be willing to offer them a PA.

Please correct me if I've gotten anything wrong here, teammates.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Checking the city screen , every gold we earn is directly converted to 1 beaker of science.

I'll check our Navy and see if we need another ship for picket duty.

Damn... some long posts, and everything seems to be covered.
Just those 2 things: Don't get confused between commerce and gold. Commerce is the total produced by city production, which is split into science and gold (and culture ) w.r.t the sliders. With 100%, no commerce is directed to gold, and so the gold multiplying buildings have no effect, as Balthalion explained.

Navy: I'd prefer not to get caught out. What do you consider enough?

 

[culdeus]

Though I have no real way of proving it it seems the best time to sign the PA is the first available opportunity for the PA partner to build Apollo. Then you can do the "build queue" to guide the AI along the path you want. And this will also conclude any tech dealings with other AI (for me, I assume this is the right way to do this?) and start the epic enter-fest.

 

[culdeus]

Smurkz, RealMs., and er. Fifth Element have not submitted a save in a full week now.

And check out XTeam's power graph. WOW.

 

[MacBalt]

And check out XTeam's power graph. WOW.

What happened to them, I wonder???

I guess they're probably not going cultural.