SGOTM 07 - The Real Ms. Beyond

[Jabah]

So that my suggested
1. research
Fishing (T6) - Hunting (T12) - Archery (T18) - Wheel (T25) - Pottery (T31) - Writing (T41) - Mysticism (T46) - Alpha (T61) - Ltt (T68) - CoL*
[*CoL T79 was with trading all the pre-requise which is probably too much, we should self research Priest]

2. Production
brk(6t) - WB (T13) - brk (T23) - Archer (t27/T29/T32/T34) - WB (T37) - worker (T43) - Library (T54) - granary (T68) - GLib (T79)

Growth is Max food to size4 (as described), then max prod until we have a worker out, then time size5 with fur camped and roaded.

Jabah

 

[chmoosi]

Hmm. What about using scientist in the city after building library? And monarchy should be a priority too (can we trade that with CoL?)

Also it should be noted that this strategy is entirely built on getting the great library. We should think(and test) of an alternative one too (with maybe monarchy --> CoLaw earlier so we can use the plentiful food recources to use caste system scientists).

I'm actually in the middle of moving my apartment (I should be packing lol) and I'm not sure when I'll be able to get my CIV 4 playable machine up & running... it depends and could be 1-2 weeks so I'm not able to do the test outlined above. But as this is a very important decision some alternatives need to be considered.

 

[Jabah]

Hmm. What about using scientist in the city after building library? And monarchy should be a priority too (can we trade that with CoL?)

I did precise it, but of course, there are 2scientists asap (they are just fired while building the GLib, in fact I kept them 2.5t to get a GS while building) - that is the reason it take so long to build a granary (working : 2 crabs + camped furs to feed 2Scientist at max commerce and +1food)

Also it should be noted that this strategy is entirely built on getting the great library. We should think(and test) of an alternative one too (with maybe monarchy --> CoLaw earlier so we can use the plentiful food recources to use caste system scientists).

It is not really getting the GLib asap, it is getting Alphabet ASAP to trade for some (lots of) tech, and then being here it is silly not too try for the GLib.

As a side effect, because of this trade, I think it is a very competitive way to CoL (less to Monarchy as trading for it is hard since even the Ais have trouble having it by then).

Another real possibility (but need testing) would be trying to go for an Oracle slingshot, but my guts are telling me either me get a crappy tech or we miss it, and in the end we finish in a less competitive situation.
[but anyone should be encourage to prove me wrong].

Jabah

 

[ruff_hi]

Agree with SP : with WB and barrack before archer, the 1st archer will arrive around T25. That is too tempting for an AI.
My suggestion is to have him home soon now, and explore with him once we have enough archers (and OB with the neighbours).

When do we research writing? That will give us open borders so that he can get back.

 

[Jabah]

When do we research writing? That will give us open borders so that he can get back.

T41 in 'my' version.

Even changing priority, with "Fishing (T6) - Hunting (T12) - Archery (T18)" set,
and then Animal-Wrinting (insted of wheel-pottery-writing), you need at least another 16t, so no chance of writing before the 4 archers are done.

Staying with a naked capital for 25t in not an option imho

 

[Swiss Pauli]

Staying with a naked capital for 25t in not an option imho

I don't think that matters as the AI doesn't know we have an unguarded capital (and warrior is unlikely to defeat 2-3 archers).

Roster summary (as I'm not sure putting it in post#2 is working):

sooooo - Up!
Swiss Pauli - on deck

 

[Jabah]

I don't think that matters as the AI doesn't know we have an unguarded capital

I am completly sure the AIs are cheating and know that

sooooo - Up!
Swiss Pauli - on deck

If sooooo is playing soon, what is the final verdict on :
- up to when Sooooo is playing
- what research/production/tiles worked
- short term/medium term strategy


Also, it probably won't matter until a round or 2, but it would be nice to have a general guideline regarding interaction with AIs (OB, demands, religion, trade, war...) that we should upgrade before each round, not to let the active player completely on his own it case of a surprise demand.

For exemple, I was always canceling asap all deals (OB and other trades) when 2 AIs declared war on each other, to avoid the 'cancel deal' demands.

 

[sooooo]

OK, I'll play either tonight or tomorrow, depending on when my orders are ready.

 

[ruff_hi]

If sooooo is playing soon, what is the final verdict on :
- up to when Sooooo is playing
- what research/production/tiles worked
- short term/medium term strategy

I completely agree with this. If you have looked at other teams threads, the play is heavily mapped out before anyone actually cracks the game open. My view is that we have a pretty solid consensus on tech (hunting, archery), build (WB, finish barracks). I think we have a good consensus on tiles (can someone post a summary?) but we are unsure what to do with Mr Warrior - we need some input on this, including an estimate regarding when Delhi will pop borders and block his route home.

Also, it probably won't matter until a round or 2, but it would be nice to have a general guideline regarding interaction with AIs (OB, demands, religion, trade, war...) that we should upgrade before each round, not to let the active player completely on his own it case of a surprise demand.

This is critical for this game but we can put this discussion off for a little while ... a better knowledge of where the AIs are at, who is behind who, etc will really help. I don't think that we have to worry about OB until after someone gets writing .

 

[Jabah]

For tiles working, my position was 'max food always until size4', but there have been some voices initially for working 1 hill at some time.
No advantage between size2 and WB done as it doesn't change (only 2t in both configuration). It could be eventually done at size3, if we want barrack and 1st archer (very) slightly faster at the expense of our grow (and afair the last archers would also be later with hill at size3). (I think I had those in my xls file, but could so pictures if I get them)

Warrior moves : looking at the picture, it seems unlikely that he could get far away (and trapped) now, I would continue NE-NE up to the sea and probably back (could also have a peek from the silver hill at our south.

The main question is more when does Sooooo stop.
I would say, play until T18 as soon as agree (to Archery researched and 1t from size3), pause and post for discussion (if any, they might be nothing to discuss).
And either sooooo continue (or next player) to T25 (size4) or T34 (4th archer) when more discussion might be needed.
Of course if something really nasty or good happens (war, poping ressource...), we should stop and reacte.

Jabah

 

[ruff_hi]

I was thinking sooooo should play thru to end of archery. A nice logical break that we are all basically agreed on.

 

[Jabah]

Here are the 2 variants I wrote earlier.
S3 is producing the 1st archer at T25, compare to T27 for S4, but the second archer is at the same time (T29) and everything after is 1t later compare to S4 which I prefer.

S4

S3

edited :
The 'Max Prod to WB1' should be ready 'High Prod to WB1' (as working hill is higher prod but gains us nothing at all)

 

[ruff_hi]

both of these have archer 2 done on T29. I would go the high food route as Archer 4 is done 1 turn earlier.

 

[Swiss Pauli]

I don't think there's anything to be gained from having the warrior look at the ice to the NE. Let's have him go to Silver-Hill to see whether he can go a-wandering to meet more AIs. If not then check where the western ice ends.

As to play, work max food tiles that have hammers attached (except netted crabs), train WB next, then restart barracks. Research to Archery. If possible, check neighbours for WHEOOH (and swap to max hammers if one turns up positive).

 

[ruff_hi]

re WHEOOH - I've been looking at this and the underlying denial type is 'TOO MANY WARS'. The AI can be in a WHEOOH state if they have too many wars or if they are preparing for war. Thus a WHEOOH state where they are already in a war shouldn't raise the red warning flag, while a WHEOOH state where they are NOT in a war should.

 

[Jabah]

If possible, check neighbours for WHEOOH (and swap to max hammers if one turns up positive).

Something I have learnt doing all this testing is that until either you or the AI have Writing, you can't open the 'let's make a deal' menu and therfore can't check WHEOOH.
So no interaction with the AI (except war! and asking who are his friends) for probably at least 30t.

Jabah

 

[Jabah]

Also WHEOOH early is likely for us, but a bit later with religion and tense borders (and us with some defence) could also mean an AI-AI war is coming. (but still better be safe than sorry).

Depending on who is on WHEOOH (and when), we might consider pausing to discuss the adjustment to 'the plan'.

 

[Compromise]

I don't think there's anything to be gained from having the warrior look at the ice to the NE. Let's have him go to Silver-Hill to see whether he can go a-wandering to meet more AIs. If not then check where the western ice ends.

As to play, work max food tiles that have hammers attached (except netted crabs), train [workboat] next, then restart barracks. Research to Archery....

@Jabah: The above is consistent with your plan, which is the first chart in this post, right?

I have had the AI attack my undefended capital with a lone archer when there is *no way* it could know--without cheating--that the capital was empty. I think I had two warriors in my empire, and both were off exploring. No more than one was visible to the AI that declared on me, and my borders had popped and no hill had a view of the city along the diagonals. Even if the AI deduced the size of my army from the demographics screen, it still did not have sufficient info to fairly and accurately determine that the capital was unitless. This was with the "Aggressive AI" box checked.

With that in mind, I'd like to recommend that the starting warrior do just a little bit more recon--I favor a view from the Silver hill--and then return for garrison duty until borders open up. Any AI that can still wend its way through the various AI cultures will find us long before we can find it.

Summary for sooooo: (proposed)
Techs: Aim for Archery
Builds: Workboat then complete barracks. (Workboat needs to be started immediately on the inherited turn)
Unit orders: Explore a little with the warrior (propose viewing from the silver hill), then use as city garrison
Tiles to work: In order of preference: Netted crabs (available after workboat), Deer (2F2H), GF or Sheep (2F1H). The last should only be worked for 3T per Jabah's spreadsheet.
Stopping point: The discovery of Archery or any unlikely (probably impossible) event: a barb unit, an AI war declaration.

Please let me know if there's a mistake here or if I've missed anything in the massive (and awesome!) discussion that should be added to this summary.

 

[Jabah]

I am perfectly happy with Compromise's post .

Note that on my tests, if you forget to 'deselect' the gouvernor for the city, he is choosing the 'proper' tile to work up to size 3 (when he decide furs are better than unimporved sheep, but that is after archery).

Jabah

PS for Soooo
before finishing the 'saved' turn, don't forget to change the prod to WB

 

[chmoosi]

Yeah the plan looks good. Go and butcher'em soooo boy.

It seems that I won't be having a CIVable machine for about two weeks at least, but I'm able to participate in the discussion.. So move me aside from the playlist. I'm itching to play though so I have a reason to get this thing taken care of.