SGOTM 07 - The Real Ms. Beyond

[ruff_hi]

Asoka has founded 2nd city ... 1 tile SW of the phants. With the 'shield' that we have, do we have the time to divert our Archery / writing run to grab mysticism and see if we can land stonehenge - that would almost guarantee we don't lose any of our tiles.

 

[Kodii]

Asoka has founded 2nd city ... 1 tile SW of the phants. With the 'shield' that we have, do we have the time to divert our Archery / writing run to grab mysticism and see if we can land stonehenge - that would almost guarantee we don't lose any of our tiles.

Stonehenge falls way too early, so I wouldn't risk it.

 

[ruff_hi]

Stonehenge falls way too early, so I wouldn't risk it.

good point.

 

[Kodii]

Actually, on second thought, by the time an AI founds a city there (which will still be a short while, if my prediction that Washington, Liz and Asoka have all founded their second city), we should be able to hold out long enough until we get the GL, which will give us a nice cultural boost.

 

[chmoosi]

About the tile working... I'd say working on the fur tile instead of the 3H tile is a good idea because of the bonus commerce and the food isn't bad really because we're going to chop that one worker anyway.

I also played the latest test game to around where I made a PA with Mansa (after which a space victory seemed very possible). Built the GL (with this I think we need to have 2 workers ready to chop and citizens to whip) with the suggested tech path Fishing --> archery - BW --> Alpha --> Lit. Then monarchy --> CS (bulbed philo)), bulbed edu, missed lib narrowly. Got actually DoWed at some point by kublai khan (before feudalism) with umm was it 4 or 5 archers + warrior. So it might be wise at some point to build the archers up to at least 6 even if it means slight costs.

 

[Jabah]

Jabah, I like the layout of that Excel file. Looking at your screenshot...Couldn't you work the furs on T11 and complete the workboat (45H) one turn earlier? You'd trade a food for a hammer and a coin and get the crabs in play a turn earlier.

and @ chmoosi

No, even working the hill, you can't completed the WB a turn earlier. (WB = 30h, but started with 19h in a barracks, sso need to reach 49h to complete it. When at size2, we still need 10h to complete the WB, so it is 2t whatever tiles you are working) [the xls file is the one from post 121]
If we want to grow to size4 fast (and without the 2nd WB), I don't think there are any alternative (if you look, I work max food all/most of the time and reach size4 with 0 surplus).

And with our 'relatively' nice neighbours, I would follow this high growth strategy, I prefer having higher growth and long term advantage at the cost of 1or 2t only on the first archers.

On the other hand, I would get the warrior 'defending' in the city ASAP, we don't want him trapped outside.


---
I try the last test game with this opening (then 2nd WB then worker), to no surprise BUT :

The big shock was losing the GLib (to an AI in the other continent) in 900BC !!!
(I was building it at that time, was 1st in the continent to alpha, and none had litterature).
Research-wise, I beeline Alpha except for BW (~12t) and Masonry(~5t). So I want to test beelining straight without BW and Masonry (with mysticism mayben you be able to trade for Poly and so research Litterature the next turn).
The only question is will 4 archer and no BW be enough to prevent being attacked.

 

[Jabah]

With our nice neighbours, I would beeline Writing immediately (Wheel, Pottery, Writing), building WB, barrack, archerx3, WB, worker, granary, library (with another archer(s) if extra time).
then Mysticism (to avoid trading for it), Alphabet (here tradin for max tech, including at least Polytheism, Math, BW, Iron, Masonry), then Litterature, then depending on the situation either Monarchy or CoLaw.


I will try this opening with the last test game to see if it is safe to by-pass BW

Jabah

 

[Swiss Pauli]

With our nice neighbours, I would beeline Writing immediately (Wheel, Pottery, Writing), building WB, barrack, archerx3, WB, worker, granary, library (with another archer(s) if extra time).
then Mysticism (to avoid trading for it), Alphabet (here tradin for max tech, including at least Polytheism, Math, BW, Iron, Masonry), then Litterature, then depending on the situation either Monarchy or CoLaw.

Without Slavery, I think it will be difficult to build everything you have listed above in time to beat a BC900 deadline to complete GLib. Remember that AH is a pre-req for Writing, so might want to swap Pottery for AH (and maybe skip Wheel if you can get a happy for a crab).

 

[Swiss Pauli]

Seeing as our warrior has been blocked off from exploring, we should focus on food to get to size four ASAP. We can also consider working un-netted crabs for the commerce at size 3 as I think 3 commerce for 1 hammer is a decent trade off.

Meet the Fokkers:

- Asoka: ORG/SPI. Low unit train. 10 tech base WFYABTA. Civic: USUF.
- Toku: AGG/ORG. High unit train. 5 tech base WFYABTA. Civic: Merc.
- Lizzie: FIN/PHI. Low unit train. 15 tech base WFYABTA. Civic: FR.
- GW: FIN/ORG. Medium unit train. 10 tech base WFYABTA. Civic: USUF.
- Capac: AGG/FIN. Medium unit train. 5 tech base WFYABTA. Civic: HR.

We can reasonably expect 2-3 more AIs on our continent. It'll be interesting to see how the religions pan out, but I'd expect Liz to be strong in tech.

 

[Swiss Pauli]

A bit of fun:

If we can keep this up we'll be fine

 

[chmoosi]

Lol what's the graph thingie?

 

[ruff_hi]

score - I also noticed it. Just don't show the power graph. Re blocked off warrior - he can still go West if we want him too. If we will shortly be producing archers, I would send him off West scouting. If (when!) he gets bounced, he will get bounced back to us (on the assumption that the AI is going to settle the rest of the land fairly quickly.

 

[Swiss Pauli]

Ran another test start, intending to go the commerce route and to add a second worker. All going to plan until HC declared war in 2520BC (Barracks, 2 archers, 3rd in 2). His first 'attack' was an archer and quechua. He pillaged a bit, and forced me to work some sub-optimal tiles, but I saw him off comfortably and had 4 Guerilla II archers at the end of it.

Was about 5 turns from GLib when I got the BIFAL message (BC900). A quick check in WB revealed it was Ghandi with Marble. I assume this was the case in Jabah's game.

In summary: maybe it's best to get that third archer done then go for commerce, and GLib is at risk, but I think we should still go for it.

 

[chmoosi]

So I played another space victory. This time already in 1968AD with mansa as a partner, in the latest test game. GL really helped, I got it built 875BC with two chopped forest and two whipped citizens so we're gonna need luck with this. If we want it really bad we might try & test skipping BW and shooting straight for Lit and see how early that gets us.. but it seems Huana has a tendency for early wars (he DoWed me around 2500BC too in some earlier game) so we need to be careful (do we know how close his empire is?)

 

[Jabah]

I ran the test I wanted (deeline Litterature alsmot), seems to work like a charm, I manage to planning to the GLibrary T67 (1320BC) with a expected time of 9t (975BC), Except that I was declare on by Mansa on T63...

Checking previous save from a while ago, Mansa had enough on his hand back to at least T47 (long before Alphabet and all the trading).

---> Having barracks + 3 archers but WITHOUT Bronze Working is not enough to prevent a declaration.

Jabah

PS1
GLib didn't fall early is this test. I was still able to get it since Mansa came jsut with Skimirsher and make peace after pillaging then losing them.

PS2
'Log' from the test
Fishing (T6) - Hunting (T12) - Archery (T18) - Wheel (T25) - Pottery (T31) - Writing (T41) - Mysticism (T46) - Alphabet (T60) - Lit (planned T67)

brk(6t) - WB (T13) - brk (T23) - archers (T27/T29/T32) - WB (T35) - worker (T40) - granary(1t) - library (T52) - granary (plannesd T67)

worker: move(1t), road marble(2), move(1t), camp fur(4t), road(2t), move (1t), camp deer (4t), road(2t), move on time to quarry marble (6t)

size2, 3, 4 (as planned), size5 (T52)
From T52, 2scientists until Litterature

Trade T60
Alphabet
- MAth from Capac
- BW+Poly from Vict
- Sailing+Animal from Caesar
Writing
- Masonry from Khan
T61
- Medi+IW for Poly+Math from Khan
- Priest for Sailing from saladin

Mansa declare T63
check back - he had enough before Alphabet (and all trading) (even back to T47)

AI Wonders
Stonehenge 2560 (t36)
Oracle, parthenon, Pyramids 1840 (t54)
Glight 1760 (t56)
HG 875 t80
No GLib yet

 

[Jabah]

In summary: maybe it's best to get that third archer done then go for commerce, and GLib is at risk, but I think we should still go for it.

I will add self research BW on top of 3archers (maybe even 4 if we have some time with nothing special to build, ie before granary and lighthouse).

I think also that we should take the risk, Glib before 750BC seems to be really unlucky (and unlikely if not stacked against us).

Jabah

 

[Jabah]

From the last inputs, here is what I think is the safest way to a fast Litterature:

Follow the 'same opening' in term of working tile to grow to size 4 on T25 (see previous pict/xls), then time growth to size5 with fur connected.

Fishing (T6), hunting (T12), Archery (T18), BW (T29), Wheel (T35), Pottery (T40), Writing (T50), Mysticism , Alphabet (T?).
brk(6t) - WB (T13) - brk (T23) - archers (T27/T29/T32) - WB (T35) - worker (T40) - archer (T43) - granary(start) - library (T) - granary (finish)

remarks :
could revolt to slavery if needed (add 1t to all)
Mysticism is debatable, but needed is we want to trade for Poly asap and start GLib immediately.
worker will have some spare time after roading and camping fur+deer, so pre-mining at least the river hill to chop into GLib is an option (we have 11 forests). Researching Litterature is 7t so he just has time to quarry the marble.

edit : @Swiss, AH is not a hard pre-requise for writing, (either Pottery, AH or Priest will be enough) and Poterry is slightly cheaper and offer something to build just if we don't know what to do waiting for the next tech.

Jabah

PS - Another option would be to follow my riskier last test, but check how many archers are needed to prevent a declaration (but since BW = 3 archer in term of power, I am afraid we needed more than our allowed units, which would be counter-productive).

 

[Swiss Pauli]

From the last inputs, here is what I think is the safest way to a fast Litterature:

Follow the 'same opening' in term of working tile to grow to size 4 on T25 (see previous pict/xls)

Fishing (T6), hunting (T12), Archery (T18), BW (T29), Wheel (T35), Pottery (T40), Writing (T50), Mysticism , Alphabet (T?).
brk(6t) - WB (T13) - brk (T23) - archers (T27/T29/T32) - WB (T35) - worker (T40) - archer (T43) - granary(start) - library (T) - granary (finish)

remarks : could revolt to slavery if needed (add 1t to all)

I agree with this tech path, though I'd swap Myst and Alpha round as it's better to get Alpha earlier (even by two or three turns).

I'd also adopt Slavery on completing BW and whip the worker at size four. If we reach our happy cap we can train another worker who can be used to chop the ice-forest in our third ring for GLib, or he can farm the river-grass-forest, or do both (depending on the timing). Not sure about the fourth archer as it will increase maint until we're at size five (maybe we can time it for this).

 

[Jabah]

I agree with this tech path, though I'd swap Myst and Alpha round as it's better to get Alpha earlier (even by two or three turns).

I'd also adopt Slavery on completing BW and whip the worker at size four. If we reach our happy cap we can train another worker who can be used to chop the ice-forest in our third ring for GLib, or he can farm the river-grass-forest, or do both (depending on the timing). Not sure about the fourth archer as it will increase maint until we're at size five (maybe we can time it for this).

If you swap, then definitively trade for Mysticism (T1) then Poly (T2) (could even run 100% cash for a turn there), as we don't want another AI to research Litterature before us.

We will have to decide how much we are ready to trade (and put some in 'too advance' mode), but we will need Masonry (marble), Mysticism, Poly (both need) and should take Math, IronW, Animal H, Sailing ?

Not sure about a second worker, it will make us reach our maintenance limits and will not have enough work to do after a very little while (will we even be controling the 3rd ring forrest by then ?)

Jabah

 

[sooooo]

What about ignoring BW and building 4/5 archers? This may invite a war declaration but we will be in no danger of losing our city and we have no improvements to pillage. Being declared on will also let us build the heroic epic soon after literature. Just a thought, maybe it's silly since we can't use a worker if under attack.

I am being swayed by the arguments for BW, but to me there just seems something a bit wrong in researching something you can get for free a short time later. I'll defer to you guys that have been playing the test games though.

In other news I haven't had time to do much testing due to my little one - what civ time I've had I've been playing adventure 29. But on the up-side I've found my vanilla disc .