SGOTM 07 - The Real Ms. Beyond

[Jabah]

@soooo, if I have time I might try to see if building 4/5 archers would do the tricks (but unfortunatly my last save before Mansa had enough on his hand is from 3000BC, so I have to replay at lot of turn).


Anyway, I would try to avoid being declared if possible:
1st, the AI will pillage our fur (happy back to 4) and our marble (Bye-bye bonus for GL) to start with. And that wil cost us a serious delay in the GLib.
2nd , we will have to build some extra archers for safety anyway.
3rd if the AI that declare on us has metal (especially Iron), we might risk elimination if he brings a decent stack (if you look at what is inside some AI capital on T60, it could be scary (around 10 sword/axe))
4th we have no guaranty to have an unit reach 10 XP (in my test, since I had 4 archer when Mansa attacked, and manage to damaged them slightly, they all defend at least once and finished with 6 or 7 XP, but no more)

But also if by chance (or GOTM's staff pleasure) we have copper, we could have an axe (or 2) instead of the 4th archer, securing the city by a huge margin.

Jabah

 

[ruff_hi]

What about ignoring BW and building 4/5 archers? This may invite a war declaration but we will be in no danger of losing our city and we have no improvements to pillage. Being declared on will also let us build the heroic epic soon after literature. Just a thought, maybe it's silly since we can't use a worker if under attack.

The OCC guide posted earlier said you wanted to be attacked to open up the epic. Just throwing that in ... no real feel for BW in or out at the present.

 

[chmoosi]

Going straight to alpha has the advantage that we're quite surely first ones to be there and trading opportunities should be plentiful. The only drawback is that we are unable to chop a worker as fast. Also, I had one game where AIs were not willing to trade polytheism even though some other techs were available. I wonder why this is so. Also, 4 archers (even 5) with slight maintenance can't be that bad because the potential threat of DoW is much larger.

Damn this microing . Oh well.. this is a game type where it definately pays off.

Aren't the following turns decided already? Who plays next?

 

[ruff_hi]

got a PM from AlanH this morning ...

Hi,

A warning: It looks like you replayed the first couple of turns in your set. If this was because of a crash, then you should have autosave set to every turn so that you would not have to restart, and you should warn me that you had a crash. If it was just a replay, then please don't do it again!

I should have mentioned the crash at turn 2 (sorry). Just a note that we should play this game as a HOF entry (ie no replaying, if play from crash then alert, etc).

 

[Jabah]

AIs not trading Poly could be mainly because they are building an associate Wonder (Parthenon), but it has always been built in my game when I have reached Alpha.

I am not sure we want to chop a second worker (that the second worker I am not sure, for the chopping part, I don't know, but I would rather have 'chops' go toward GLib if they are limited)

I never do any serious MM or xls-ing like that in normal game, but with OCC (so it is easy enough) and being a 'competitive' (ie all the serious teams are doing it), I think that is a necessary evil.
And also it is quite interesting, as I realised that what I would have consider 'optimum' before was far from the 'best' move now !!!


Also, having been an attentive lurker of Murky's last SG (and a few other teams), I can tell you we are still very 'amateurish' compared to them. (you unfortunatly need to read all their thread, as the 'playing' posts are completely empty, all the discussions/validations were done long before playing (playing = just following what was discussed/accepted by all before). Not sure we want to go that far (but again in OCC it is quite easier to do 'proper' planning.

On the 'competitive' subject, viewing the SG 'power' (and culture) chart is something that can tell you lots of thing about other teams openning like tech and building (not that I can tell you what, but you probably could tell who has built a warrior or research a 'power' tech)

 

[Swiss Pauli]

The OCC guide posted earlier said you wanted to be attacked to open up the epic. Just throwing that in ... no real feel for BW in or out at the present.

That guide is for a Dom/Conq win on a Pangaea, so we don't want to follow it to the letter in this game.

 

[Swiss Pauli]

Going straight to alpha has the advantage that we're quite surely first ones to be there and trading opportunities should be plentiful. The only drawback is that we are unable to chop a worker as fast.

Do you mean chop, or whip, the worker? I wouldn't spend a precious forest on a worker when we can multiply a chop for a wonder.

 

[Swiss Pauli]

What about ignoring BW and building 4/5 archers? This may invite a war declaration but we will be in no danger of losing our city and we have no improvements to pillage. Being declared on will also let us build the heroic epic soon after literature. Just a thought, maybe it's silly since we can't use a worker if under attack.

We can (and should) have improvements that the AIs would pillage: it's not fatal, but it's definitely inconvenient to lose the 5gpt and 1 happy from camped furs.

I didn't get that close to level 4 unit, and we wouldn't want to build HE until the late game anyway to avoid Artist pollution.

 

[chmoosi]

Do you mean chop, or whip, the worker? I wouldn't spend a precious forest on a worker when we can multiply a chop for a wonder.

D'oh I meant whip. Chopping is reserved for the GL!

 

[TheArchduke]

Also, having been an attentive lurker of Murky's last SG (and a few other teams), I can tell you we are still very 'amateurish' compared to them. (you unfortunatly need to read all their thread, as the 'playing' posts are completely empty, all the discussions/validations were done long before playing (playing = just following what was discussed/accepted by all before). Not sure we want to go that far (but again in OCC it is quite easier to do 'proper' planning.

Well, comparing it to previous SGs, the team is doing a nice amount of planning and playtesting. I am not sure if we want to go there where the other teams are, though.

I gotta admit, as I am away from a CIV-able CPU for still another 3 weeks I will try not to clutter the thread anymore and silently lurk from now on.

 

[Jabah]

D'oh I meant whip. Chopping is reserved for the GL!

At size 4, we could put (at least) 10hammers per turn, so worker is 6t max, I am not sure we want to lose 1pop to gain 4-5t of production (and then losing 3h/t minimum until we grow back to size4/5).

From the few OCC I had seen (SG or other), whipping was considered a very bad thing in general.

Also if we have a 2nd WB before worker, working the 2 crabs means an extra 6cpt for research, which is our priority (once our defence is set up).

 

[Swiss Pauli]

At size 4, we could put (at least) 10hammers per turn, so worker is 6t max, I am not sure we want to lose 1pop to gain 4-5t of production (and then losing 3h/t minimum until we grow back to size4/5).

From the few OCC I had seen (SG or other), whipping was considered a very bad thing in general.

Also if we have a 2nd WB before worker, working the 2 crabs means an extra 6cpt for research, which is our priority (once our defence is set up).

I think the trade off is worthwhile: with 2WBs we'll grow back rapidly, and the citiens will be working newly improved tiles (deer and furs). I whip a fair bit in the early stages of OCC in order to get things like workers, granaries, happy buildings and such, but once you get the happy cap up (and enough tiles improved) then you want to grow the pop as large as possible to run SE.

 

[Compromise]

This discussion is excellent. I am so swamped in RL that I'm unlikely to be helpful until Thu at the earliest. I do want to generate another test game with the known AIs in approximate positions.

I hope no one minds delaying the further progress of the game a bit. I think that the testing is very helpful. Getting the opening moves right will likely make the difference between us competing for a laurel and trying to survive.

@Ruff, & all turn players: Please set autosave interval to 1T. (With this being vanilla, we're unlikely to have this affect any other private Civ game. )And be absolutely sure to notify Alan if anything at all unusual occurs during your turnset. In addition to the fun we're having, this is a competition with clear playing conditions.

I have listed our team in alphabetical order starting with Ruff. If anyone prefers a different order or place in the order or desperately wants to play the next turnset, please let me know. I'm sure we can be very accommodating.

 

[Kodii]

I am so swamped in RL

Moi aussi.

I am very pleased with the amount of discussion that we're getting out there, which is aided in part by the fact that this game is easier to break down than previous. I feel bad that I can't always keep up or contribute, since my online time doesn't appear to coincide with everyone else's, but I'll do my best to offer up anything that fits into the current discussion.

Regarding the power graphs, its easy to see which teams (like XTeam and maybe Smurkz) researched BW (ie their power jumps from 3 to 13).

Regarding culture graphs, we can see that the Trash Team's city has an additional +1 culture, whether from Obelisk or outside religion, I don't know (probably the latter).

Once we can get another test game save together, I think we can play some more turns (ie up to Hunting, then Archery), since we have a general consensus on the happenings within there.

 

[ruff_hi]

Once we can get another test game save together, I think we can play some more turns (ie up to Hunting, then Archery), since we have a general consensus on the happenings within there.

except that we haven't really discussed what to do with the warrior ... I think he should keep exploring West.

 

[Kodii]

except that we haven't really discussed what to do with the warrior ... I think he should keep exploring West.

Right.

I agree, but we need him to return before Delhi's second border pop, since there is no way back except through Asoka's lands (there is a mountain under the fog 3E of the fur and ice/coast beyond that)

 

[ruff_hi]

ummm - why do we want him back if we will have archers in the capital shortly?

 

[Swiss Pauli]

I don't think the warrior will get very far west: it looks like ice-coast to me, and the route around GW's BFC might be blocked off as well if he has another city.

@ruff - we want him back for MP: it we target growth we won't get an archer until after reaching size 4 which will give one without a garrison.

 

[Jabah]

Agree with SP : with WB and barrack before archer, the 1st archer will arrive around T25. That is too tempting for an AI.
My suggestion is to have him home soon now, and explore with him once we have enough archers (and OB with the neighbours).

 

[Jabah]

I did some more tests yesterday about the no BW experiment and Mansa having enough on his hand.

Replaying from my old save, I change the production after archer#3
[
opening up to T32
Fishing (T6) - Hunting (T12) - Archery (T18) - Wheel (T25) - Pottery (T31) - Writing
brk(6t) - WB (T13) - brk (T23) - archers (T27/T29/T32)
]

Test 1
-> WB (T35) then Archer#4 (T38)
When able to check (need him to have writing) Mansa is fine on T36, BUT already has ENOUGH on T37

Test 2
-> Archer#4 (T34) - WB (T37)
And bingo, the 4th archer asap does the trick, Mansa is fine (until the end of my test game T130+)

Conclusion #1
I recommend (if we agree to go for a very fast GLib) this opening with barrack, WB, 4 archers, WB...
(we will have a maintenance of 1gpt until size5, but that is acceptable of course)

Continuing this test.
Here are the detailed research/production
Back to T25
Pottery (T31) - Writing (T41) - Mysticism (T46) - Alpha (T61) - Litérature (T68) - CoL (T79)
Archer (t27/T29/T32/T34) - WB (T37) - worker (T43) - Library (T54) - granary (T68) - GLib (T79)

Glib in 900BC (T79) without any chop or whip and even 'wasting' 1 or 2t because I wanted to generate the 1st GS before (needed 13GPP still at the start)

Then I nicely cruise to Civil Service (T94) then Liberalism (T126, 275AD - 1st) and stop.

A few remarks on this game
- Saladin had enough on his hand T60, but that was for Isa (Sladin was rogue religion) and he declare on T71 and destroy Isa T79.
- I trade too much (I think) with Alphabet (in 4t get : Medi, Poly, Mason / BW, AH / IW, Priest / Sailing, Math / Mono) putting several AI in 'Too advanced'. I did manage later to trade CService for (Monarchy, Metal C, Construc, Compass, Feudalism).
The necessary evil for GLib fast are Poly+Masonry and I recommend we take on top, only Bronze, Math and Iron, but I would stop here (and research the small ones, quite fast with Academy+GLib).

Jabah

PS
Wonders build by me
GLib (T79) - 900Bc
NEpic (T85)
Colossus (T107) - around 250BC (Had nothing really needed so i gave it a try)
Oxford (T119) - 50AD
Start TajMahal T127 (took Nationalism from Libe).