SGOTM 07 - The Real Ms. Beyond

[Swiss Pauli]

As you can see from my main post, I have played 4 test games and only got pwnd when I stretched my luck too far and went WB-WB. Barracks gives a big boost to power, so I guess that spike puts off the AI a bit. The constant wars mentioned didn't materialize for me: maybe one of the patches changed AI aggression, or maybe it's to do with the map type

The more testing the better for the openings, so I'm off to run one or two...

 

[Kodii]

I think we're already off to a good start. If we can maintain our testing and get some RBTS6-styled discussion going, we could very well be in contention of a laurel... not that it matters.

I'll get going on the test games myself, building off of what SP has already done.

 

[Jabah]

For those test games, it could be interesting to note roughly when Wonders are built (especially those we might want in our dreams )

 

[Compromise]

Swiss, your test game reports are excellent. This is exactly the kind of pre-game intel we need.

 

[Kodii]

I raced through test game #3 using SP's starting strategy and found the victory extremely easy. Nobody declared war on me (us), even with Toku right beside us, until the very end before we launched our ship.

I built the Great Library, which gave me several GSs which were used to lightbulb various techs that I could use as trade fodder, seeing as nobody researched them (ie Philosophy). I founded Taoism and spread it around to half the religion-less AIs on the continent. I beelined to Military Tradition and then Fascism and signed a PA with Mansa in 1600AD. It was relative cakewalk to victory, although two other pairs of AIs signed PAs too.

I'll have further analysis re: early wonders and tech path when I find some more time later.

 

[Compromise]

Good work, Kodii. Mansa seems like a good PArtner for a space victory, since that's essentially a tech race.

I suspect that diplo will be the fastest victory in this event if someone can pull it off. Did this seem possible with Mansa in your test game?

 

[Kodii]

Once I had the PA, I generally neglected foreign relations. By the time the UN was built, Mansa and I were on the ballot, but Cyrus/JC were the more popular candidate, so no, it wasn't possible.

My next test game will go for diplo.

 

[Swiss Pauli]

I raced through test game #3 using SP's starting strategy and found the victory extremely easy. Nobody declared war on me (us), even with Toku right beside us, until the very end before we launched our ship.

I built the Great Library, which gave me several GSs which were used to lightbulb various techs that I could use as trade fodder, seeing as nobody researched them (ie Philosophy). I founded Taoism and spread it around to half the religion-less AIs on the continent. I beelined to Military Tradition and then Fascism and signed a PA with Mansa in 1600AD. It was relative cakewalk to victory, although two other pairs of AIs signed PAs too.

I'll have further analysis re: early wonders and tech path when I find some more time later.

Nice work Did Mansa have Alu in this game?

I played another start (from save 1) and grabbed GLib, Colossus, and 1st to Lib (though I did reload as some influenced trading cost me on the initial run). I decided to take more early risk than planned and went:

Barracks - WB - finish barracks - Archer - WB - Archer - worker whipped size 4 - granary (max hammers)- part Archer - Lib (whipped) - finish Archer - Archer (max food/sci).

Fishing - Hunting -Archery - BW -Wheel - Pottery - Writing - Alpha [trade frenzy: Masonry, Maths, IW, Sailing] - Myst - enforced 1T Poly then begged the rest - Lit. Only Liz had Lit by the time GLib was completed.

As to early Wonders: Mids 2080 (late), GLight 1760, GLib 850ish, Col 425.

I might replay from the pre-Lib save: I went for Astro thinking of a MM beeline, but maybe Nat - MT => Fascism would be better to get an ASAP PA, whilst preserving benefits of Bigfella and GLib longer.

 

[Swiss Pauli]

Played another couple of test games:

- Diplo can be tricky: if there's a lot of religions founded on our continent, we'll be struggling as the AI will eventually spread them around => FR. This can make it hard to find a PArtner if the likes of Mansa aren't around. In another game, my continent was split between Judaism and Hinduism with a balance of strong AIs in each camp

- Wonders: Mids 2k, GLight 1760 (almost like clockwork every game), GLib (me: 925-850 depending on whipping). HG goes early, and we can't really afford the Aqueduct whip to snag it ourselves. Got some cashback from AW, but we want to trade Philo around (and it's probably not worth the hammers to complete it).

- GMen: I got 2/5 Artists in one game I still think we should built NE early, then keep a couple of Scientists almost all the time to increase GS birthrate. Of course, this will slow...

- Growth: if we want to keep most of our forests, we won't grow too large. I'd favour us chopping a river forest into a farm or two.

- Early Tech path: I think a run to Alpha then Lit is a strong move. After that, we have a choice of what to do, and I think this depends a bit on the AI. If we're teching relatively well, then I've had good results from Compass, but if some AIs are motoring along, it's been all but useless in keeping up with the leaders. Similar story with MC. Will try CoL-CS to see whether this pays off any better.

- Mid-game Tech path: Edu should be the priority (Oxford) and a GS LB would be excellent. Lib is a very long shot, and we don't want Taj, so I think we can decide after Edu which way we want to go (Nat-MT, or MM), as we'll be able to assess the long-term diplo at this point.

- Monty: don't trade with him if he's on the other continent as he has a way of annoying everyone, even his co-religionists!

 

[Swiss Pauli]

I might replay from the pre-Lib save: I went for Astro thinking of a MM beeline, but maybe Nat - MT => Fascism would be better to get an ASAP PA, whilst preserving benefits of Bigfella and GLib longer.

Scratch the bit about Fascism: Communism also enables PAs and the kind of AIs we want to team with should have that tech by the time we have a DefPac long enough to allow a PA. This makes the path to Radio more appealing, after an early grab for MT: I managed to get a PA with Mansa in 1360 from start 2 (which is by far the easiest map) though I did head to Assembly, not Radio

 

[chmoosi]

Ok so I finished a space race victory in the third save with Mansa. Finish date was 2036AD though, which is quite late..

I begun with the aforementioned Barracks - WB - Barracks - archers plan. Fishing - Hunting - Archery - BW - Wheel - pottery - writing - alpha after which there was plenty of tech to trade. I also built a worker pretty early to get the +1 happiness bonus and after that marble, which I got just in time in order to build the GL.

If I remember correctly, the deity OCC strategy limited the number of units only to as much that are free(I might remember wrong though), but in the first game I played when I had only 5 archers in my city I got DoW:ed pretty quickly (just when I started to build GL). Now I had 7 and there wasn't any war until I already had longbows and crossbows in the ADs. If it's so that building those extra 2-4 archers in the beginning avoids war it would be quite important discovery.

After GL I went towards CivilS lightbulbing and trading techs on the way. After that I went to Edu and won the liberalism race. Then I beelined to fascism and made a PA with Mansa. He had only 1 city, so our technologically backward neighbour, Tokugawa was destroyed. I attacked his cities and left only 1 or 2 units to defend so mansa could capture.

Then things were going nicely and I maybe lost focus a bit. The best idea at this point would probably been to take out Peter south of my CIV, but this never came to pass. A while went by and I noticed mr Louis XVI was starting to get a too nice of a lead in the techs so I built an army of tanks and flattened his empire and mansa got some more cities. After this space victory was easily obtained.

 

[Jabah]

I did 2 tests (start mainly) and want to suggets an alternative.
All this is from memory (notes on the other computer, will add more later tomorrow)

Opening

Start with warrior (while growing), barrack (1t), WB x2, barrack (until size4), worker, barrack (finish), archer, Pyramids (once stone is connected).
Research Sailing , Bronze (revolt asap), hunting, archery, masonry, wheel

--> on test 1 (map1), missed pyramids by 13t. (lost it to India)
--> on test 2 (map2), missed by 2t (while having set 1t into an archer to be able to whip it in case since you make me paranoid about Toku being next). (lost the Mids to Toku !!)

Conclusion opening
1. Even if Pyramids is generally a dream there is a slight chance to have it. But it is a win-win thing imho, we have nothing but archer to build at that time, and the refund is huge and will allow to either lose money (because of too many units or civics) or pay upgrade or buy techs.
2. 2 warriors+archer+barracks seems to be enough to prevent being declared (even by Toku in test 2) but we might want to have a bit more I guess depending on neighbours for a real game.

After that
building Archer x2 (at least), then random building
research to Alphabet (pottery, writing, sometimes more)

I was first to Alpha both time (even when in test2 I side-research Mystisicm and Poly to be able to research Litterature straight after to take no risk to GLib)

Once Writing, Open Border, send the warriors to scout/meet as many AIs.
worker road and prechop (premined 2/3 forrest-hills).
Once Alpha, I trade for everything possible, maybe not a good idea for 'too advanced' (getting at least Iron, Math,..).

Conclusion alpha/GLib.
Never missed Alpha 1st,
Never missed Great Library (2 chops only both time)

After Great Lib
Generate a few G Scientist, 1st for academy, next either settled or bulbing (getting 1st to philo in 1 case) when giving trading material on the way to Libe.
I always have been 1st to liberalism (beelining it, trading often)
I even have been able to build a few wonder on the way (Angkor Wat when founding a religion)

I have been playing sloppily after that, so I have no idea what is the best path after. (I was more trying the opening...)

Jabah

PS - on map 1, Isa settle a (double) holy city just next and steal the fur, so even at size 4 for a long while i manage to get Glib then Libe first.

 

[Kodii]

Before the details of my test game, I will say that it was essentially EXACTLY what chmoosi played, minus the late-game warring, since Mansa had flipped one of Louis' cities in the early-game. That alone was enough to take us to the end, even if it was nearing 2000AD.

Stonehenge fell in 2520BC (Mansa)
The Oracle fell in 2360BC
The Pyramids fell in 2320BC
Confucianism was founded in 1640BC
I was first to Alphabet in 1280BC
I built the GL with ease in 750BC
Lightbulbed Philo and founded Taoism in 530BC
I built the Taj with relative ease in 1070AD
Learned Fascism and signed a PA with Mansa in 1600AD

It is interesting to note that I signed a DP with BOTH Hatty and Mansa after Military Tradition. When Fascism came around, I had the option of PAing with either. One of the biggest factors was that both were easy to please and I was able to convert both to Taoism.

 

[Swiss Pauli]

Ok so I finished a space race victory in the third save with Mansa. Finish date was 2036AD though, which is quite late..

I begun with the aforementioned Barracks - WB - Barracks - archers plan. Fishing - Hunting - Archery - BW - Wheel - pottery - writing - alpha after which there was plenty of tech to trade. I also built a worker pretty early to get the +1 happiness bonus and after that marble, which I got just in time in order to build the GL.

If I remember correctly, the deity OCC strategy limited the number of units only to as much that are free(I might remember wrong though), but in the first game I played when I had only 5 archers in my city I got DoW:ed pretty quickly (just when I started to build GL). Now I had 7 and there wasn't any war until I already had longbows and crossbows in the ADs. If it's so that building those extra 2-4 archers in the beginning avoids war it would be quite important discovery.

Great stuff! Map 3 is definitely much tougher than map 2 (which plays more like Emperor with turbo-tech). I think the reason for the early DoW is the fact that Pete has Copper in his capital's third ring, whereas he has none in map 2. He eliminated me yesterday when I only had two archers (3rd 1T from completion) and had left a worker unprotected to quarry the marble.

Obviously, such a DoW is not going to happen every time, but if we can see connected Copper in one of our near neighbours lands when we get BW then we should take the conservative path (i.e. more archers) because prevention is so much better than fighting.

 

[Jabah]

I have try 'more or less' the same opening (as my previous tries on map1&2) on map 3 and didn't find any significant chances.

Production : warrior (max growth), barrack (1t), WB x2 (max prod, then max growth to size2, then max prod), barrack (max growth up to size4), worker, barrack (finish), archerx2, pyramids

research : sailing, BW, hunt, archery,masonry, wheel.

Miss Pyramids by 19t (had only 2t into it,so no big cash)

Then change a bit:
- wall before 2 archers (so defence is wall+barrack+4archers).
- Stack animal before writing (we should just in case we have horse in the 'suspect' empty tile)
- Stack Mysticism+Poly before Alpha

--->
1st to Alpha still (1040BC) (trade for math+Iron mainly)
1st to Litterature (850BC)
GLib 725BC (2chop)
'Bulb' Philo 1st (400BC)
1st to Bureaucracy (250BC)
1st to Liberalism 450AD (have used a GS on part of Education, have settled a GA for small cash)
Taj Mahal 740AD
1st to Economics 840AD
(then stop)

My preliminary conclusions

We seems to have good chance at alphabet first even with a slight delay (animal, which might be good to chack horse in the 2 suspect un-forrested tiles). Litterature first seems to be quite easy as well (in 1 game I didn't manage because I didn't research before Alphabet the 2 small prerequise Myst+Poly) and GLib seems to be no problem at all.

Defence with 2 warriors only very early then barrack+2archers seems to be enough for a while.
Much later I get declared once (game1 by Saladin) while having only 3 lgbow+wall+castle (should never have try that) and defeat next turn (since my border where 1 tile wide because of Isa holy city, Saladin declare and drop a stack next to the city same turn).

Jabahj

 

[Jabah]

In all 3 tests, I have built the GLib around 700BC with 2chops (hills premined)

For main wonders by the AIs:

Test1
Stone 2800BC
Pyramids 2120BC (13t too soon for me)
Oracle 2080BC
GLight 1880BC
Parthenon 1600BC

Test2
Stone 2640BC
Oracle 2320
Gt Light 2200
Parthenon 1800
Pyramids 1720 (2t too soon for me)
hG 700
Colossus 200

Test3
Oracle 2440
Stonehendge 2400
Pyramids 2200 (19t too early)
Parthenon 1880
GLight 1760
HGar 575
Colossus 325

Jabah

 

[Swiss Pauli]

Defence with 2 warriors only very early then barrack+2archers seems to be enough for a while.
Much later I get declared once (game1 by Saladin) while having only 3 lgbow+wall+castle (should never have try that) and defeat next turn (since my border where 1 tile wide because of Isa holy city, Saladin declare and drop a stack next to the city same turn).

I don't think the warriors are worth it because they don't boost power very much at all. I think barracks = 2 archers = 4 warriors. With stone, it might be idea to build some cheap walls if it boosts power without maintenance, and we have nothing else to build at that point in time.

 

[Jabah]

Even if warrior is not a good defence, we have to choose something to build right at the beginning while researching sailing (6t), and since we want to grow, it is either barracks (for6t) or warrior (for 5t). (I could possibly consider building 2 warriors instead at zero growth if we could)
On top of doubling our power (lol), the warrior has also another advantage, when we finally have archer defending (and Open Border), we could then send 2 warriors scouting, mapping the 'map' faster. (they are delete after that once we know the land and are paying maintenance fo rthem).

Even if the warrior is neglectible on our power (in my/our view), it seems to have been enough not to be declared in any of my (limited 3) tests, so I encourage some of you to test it also .

1 good point of trying (and missing) Pyramids is that you don't have to worry too much about having an extra 2 or 3 archers and paying maintenance since you have a bit of cash.

 

[chmoosi]

Even if warrior is not a good defence, we have to choose something to build right at the beginning while researching sailing (6t), and since we want to grow, it is either barracks (for6t) or warrior (for 5t). (I could possibly consider building 2 warriors instead at zero growth if we could)
On top of doubling our power (lol), the warrior has also another advantage, when we finally have archer defending (and Open Border), we could then send 2 warriors scouting, mapping the 'map' faster. (they are delete after that once we know the land and are paying maintenance fo rthem).

You mean fishing right? Imo there is less wasted production if we just build the barracks right from the start and start building units (archers) when we research archery. And I always send the first warrior to scout right in the beginning. Is this too risky? I doubt we'd get DoWed in those very first turns, but this is deity, so what do I know..

If more test games are available I could probably play one or two before we start for real.

 

[Jabah]

Yes fishing not sailing (need to change that in all my posts).

It seems a little waste starting the barracks at the beginning, as you put only 18 hammer into it before changing to WB, and that is just about 2t of production when you finish it, some turns later. I would better have another warrior now for extra (false) security or scouting.

I do scout with the first warrior, but not too far away as you don't want him to get trapped behind AIs borders anyway. (I feel I just need to know who and where the immediat neighbours are, and let the AIs scout comes to me now. I will map the continent later with my warriors during Open Border time).

But I would not scout if I am not building another warrior to defend.

It might be silly, but this extra warrior might be the difference between being declared or not.
(I am not an expert in code 'decoding' to confirm that at 100%, but that is what the 'experts' SGOTM teams were doing in previous games, some players seems to know the code more than the developers )

That i swhy I should encourage the comparaison with or without this warrior at the beginning