SGOTM 07 - Unusual Suspects

[shikhee]

Initially I thought SH would be vital just so you don't get squashed by culture, but after a thoroughly enjoyable latest test game the Pyramids and GL is more than enough - especially considering the topography of the first couple rounds, highly unlikely we're sitting dangerously close to any civs starting point.

Following the latest strategy we're on in the test game, by the modern era I was the 5th most powerful civ (out of all 18!!!) and got an easy PA with Saladin... still haven't finished but winning space race is looking extremely likely, although I'm finding late game hammers a bit thinner than I'd like because I did cottage a few squares (also bad idea to cottage that grassland 1R on the river... but I'm guessing this is obvious to everyone but me!)

 

[acidsatyr]

Production is only a means to an end. You are assuming that production is more important than research - why?
The Pyramids do not provide any immediate benefit by simply existing. You can switch to Representation earlier - provided you have the population and food for extra scientists - winning some beakers. But if you have had to research some extra techs for it, you have wasted some beakers to begin with, and it is not clear if you have gained or lost in total.

No, research is more powerful than production in this game, I was just saying that we will have superb ealry production, which is still great.
We have 2 clams + Deer for scientists.

Pyramids do provide imidiate benefits, huge ones -> culture, and Representation (which will switch to as soon as we get library).

Getting Pyramids is the KEY to winning this game because nothing gives us as much reserach as scientists under representation. So researching a tech or two to get it is a small price to pay, very small.

925BC and the completion of the GL look like a reasonable timespan for testing.
I believe you have played several games up to that point? You should be able to calculate the total amount of food, hammers, and beakers produced in the empire by 925BC. This should be easier than ever, because the empire, as such, only consists of 1 city.
So, you've got the numbers, bring em on!

Ugh yeah I'm lazy to do it again
But the fact is this : AI gets the GL around 900bc, no matter how I play it out. SO getting it faster is a must.

The whole plan will have to be executed with precision because we can't waste turns. After I finished my test game I realized that contrary to many other games I played, every move in this game seemed to be extremely important.

 

[acidsatyr]

I believe we could skip fishing from that order... pick it up in a trade when we have alphabet. Also, I believe you will need to add Myst somewhere in that path to get to Poly.

We need fishing as our souce of food! Thats a must. Also, Myst will be traded when we get Alphabet. Poly will be researched by us since it will most likely be redded out.

 

[acidsatyr]

@Tech trading

Acid, what did you take early on? What about WFYBTA? That kicked in a bit after 10 trades in my games. I then decided to only ask for key techs in other games. I've traded for ~20 of them in a game played till 1200 AD. (~180 turns of play)

There was some WFYBTA, BUT only after I got to liberalism, but it didn't matter much after that, I was #1 research power in the game. And I basically stopped trading away my techs later. Biggest trading came from Alphabet, and Education (1 turn before Liberalism).
The research path went like this:

hunting->masonry->wheel->fishing->pottery->writting->alphabet->poly->literature->Code of Laws->Civil Service->Paper->Philosophy->Education->Liberalism (around 150 ad). Free tech was Astronomy for observatories. I manually researched Nationalism for Taj Mahal. After Military service, defensive pact was in order. After that PA was formed (Communism). PA came little late, around 1600 ad, because I couldn't sign defensive pact earlier due to stupid defensive war which lasted ages.


Every single great person was settled, except first scientist who built academy.
I traded for Drama much later, I simply didn't need all that extra happiness just yet, Beijing was stuck at size 12 due to food limit, but had 13 happiness I think from resources + heredity rule.
I also traded for techs like Machinery, Feudalism, Gunpowder, etc, virtually every military tech was researched first by AI, so I couldn’t find a time where conquest / domination would come into play due to lower production and weaker military.

I got most of the late wonders. Also, Pyramids, the GL, Angkor Watt, every single national wonder, Taj Mahal, etc, everything helped for GPP at the end. I got 2 artists which I didn’t really need but oh well. Gifted 2 priests and an engineer to my PA partner later which he all settled as well.

I also built UN in my game but there was no way to get enough votes for the win. Most of the civs abstained from voting throughout the whole game.

 

[marconos]

We are skipping Stonehenge. With our current map layout it appears that we should be okay without it and this way we shouldn't miss the pyramids. I really like our current start and can't wait to see how it start panning out for us.

 

[Balbes]

Getting Pyramids is the KEY to winning this game because nothing gives us as much reserach as scientists under representation.

Certainly, I do want to cast any doubt on the Pyramids being the cornerstone of our strategy.

But I wanted to point out that conscoiusly delaying them a little might be actually the optimal solution, if you add up the food/hammers/beakers you save and those you sacrifice.

We are not aiming for the Golden Laurel, though, so I'm not going to insist that you calculate every beaker. All in all, I agree about the Hunting-Masonry-The Wheel start (further techs are still up for discussion), I just wanted you to take a closer look at the alternatives, because intuition can be wrong with this kind of judgements.

 

[acidsatyr]

We are not aiming for the Golden Laurel, though,...

And why not? I am, in fact, calculating beakers and shields for the best outcome; I just don't operate with raw numbers. That’s what the test games are for. We will do more math when test games are not such a good idea anymore later in the game.

In this team, we all play different difficulty levels in our games, but we all have very good advices for each other, and we fill out holes and gaps we individually might have (even the most obvious mistakes). With the good quality discussion and plan assessment I'm confident we can play this very well.
There aren’t other teams out there who have a clear advantage over us or any other team out there in any way.

BTW, I will start this game soon if there are no more objections on our first short term plan to get Pyramids (which should play out around 40 turns).
I need to remind myself to turn that turn timer on


edit:

I'm doing a sort of a project for my school, that's one of the reasons I'm constantly online..yeah..playing civ and reading forums when i should be doing the actual real work.
Anyway did anyone play some test games for race to the Great Library?
I got it in 975bc or turn 63. That's the best one yet.
After hunting->masonry->wheel, i went fishing->pottery->writting->Alphabet-> **traded for myst ->poly->literature. I basicaly have recorded every single turn so we get maximal city growth, research, and production. I might post an excel spreadsheet or something like that.

You got your city and resources, see if you can beat that. Remember you have to convince me! Otherwise we are sticking to this plan!

 

[Balbes]

I do not remember if turnset length has been discussed. At Normal speed, 20 turns for the 1st turnset and 10 turns for each subsequent one looks like a good idea to me.

 

[Morganknight]

You might want to take short pauses as you play when you meet the other civs so we can start discussing potential problems and potential defensive pacts/PA partners...It will be good to know who's demands we will be catering to...

edit: We discussed turnsets not being preset, but instead, to a logical stopping point, I think even one turn at least...

1. There are 7 days in a week. In order to respect everyone’s time management (job, school, family, girlfriend ), there will be a 24-36 hour “got it” rule. This means that you as a next player have exactly that much time to post a “got it” to let everyone else know you indeed got the last save and are ready to play. However, before you actually play your turnset (more o this later), you will participate in an ongoing discussion and only after we all agree on the course of the action, you will play it. You don’t have to play a turnset at all. Just post that you want a skip for that turn.

2. Your turnset does not have a strict number of turns. It can be 5, 10, or even 1. Whenever something major happens which needs more attention, stop playing and start a discussion. Remember it’s about good quality discussion, it doesn’t matter who will execute the plan. Again, the exact course of action will be discussed before we actually play the save file. Relatively simple (obvious) changes like civic changes/ unit promotions up to more delicate matters like obeying others civ request to join a crusade against another civ (remember you can alt+tab anytime!), or excepting other religion needs to be discussed before playing, otherwise it will be unfair to others here.

I agree, that since the first 40 or so turns of our game are pretty much preset, (Like many others, I was able to duplicate getting the Pyramids in 2480 BC) we should go ahead and get them out of the way before passing the reins to another player. All I ask, is short pauses for discussion as we meet each new Civ...

 

[acidsatyr]

Ofcourse! Generally in every SG I played, 1st player went 40 turns. After that for the rest of the first round everyone played 20. Second round and forward, 10 turn for everyone. This is NOT what we will do here. This is OCC challenge where micromanagement is everything. Putting those available tiles to proper use is essential, as well as commanding the worker.
Conveniently, we get pyramids in turn 39! Which is why I will play those first 40 turns, BUT I will stop every time something major happens, post it here, so we can all take a look at it, and I except you to do the same for the sake of the game, please.
If my SG team beats Immortal, this is nothing worst than that! This game will feel exactly like Immortal.

 

[vra379971]

Heck yes we're going for the Golden Laurels!

And, I got the GL later than that, so that should be fine. Let's get a move on, I'm dying to meet the neighbourhood

This game will feel exactly like Immortal.

I reckon emperor, but that fits too.

 

[acidsatyr]

I reckon emperor, but that fits too.

You got it

I will play later today, expect a post within 3-4 hours.

 

[acidsatyr]

OK, OK I just played 1st couple of turns! Exciting. I know you’re dying to hear who neighbors are.

1) Washington!
2) Asoka

aaaaaaaaaaand

3) TOKU

That's it so far, ill post in couple of hours

 

[Yamps]

Ready for lift of?

Didn't have the time to do anymore SH-Pyramids-GL tests, but that idea feels to risky. It seems we have a consensus on what to do!

Just remember to play it with care. It is so easy to skip sth you want to do when you play the same old turnsets!

Just some thoughts:

1) Remember to stagnant the city on size 3 (but if you do forget, remember to starve the city a bit to get back on track)

2) Switch to Pyramids ASAP, never mind barracks hammer degradation

3) And do post if you see a nasty stack of axes nearby!

Go Acid, go!
Start that turn timer

 

[Balbes]

40 Epic turns may be okay, but 40 Normal turns are 60 Epic turns - a long, long time. At the very least, stopping after 20 turns for a mid-turnset review would be prudent, if you're intent on building the Pyramids yourself.

 

[Yamps]

@Turns

Also, there are 10 of us, we should keep it short. Game will be over in ~300 turns if we do it well, or sooner if we don't.

 

[vra379971]

Washington, Asoka and Toku?!

Gee Whiz, I never thought we'd be THAT lucky.

I guess we can pack away the war charts ;p

 

[acidsatyr]

Off we go!

First I'd like to say that I REALLY LOVE THIS START! If we play our cards right we are almost guarantied a safe trip to the GL withouth any attacks.

I will play until pyramids, or until something happens which will need attention. Otherwise I will execute the plan as we agreed upon. I want to make sure we do this right. Turns I didn’t list in are turns where I was just pressing enter.

Turn 0 Beijing founded on the spot. Starts a worker [12]
Researching – Hunting [6]

Turn 3 We meet Asoka, Washington and Togukawa.

But the position is rather good, because Japan has to be far bellow India and USA, and none of them will open borders with him! Both Asoka and Washington are rather peaceful and this is probably the best start we could’ve hoped for, since now we can delay building defenses. Notice all 3 are organized.

Turn 5

Turn 6 Hunting in. Start masonry [10]

Turn 8 We meet Elizabeth! She is just west of Washington, seemingly blocking us from all other civs down south so far. This is all excellent for us, none of the aggressive civs by default are our neighbors. Also all 3 of them are research monsters!

Buddhism FIDL!

Turn 11

Beijing completes a worker, and Starts barracks [15].

Turn 12 Hindu FIDL!

Turn 16 Masonry in. We start wheel, and switch production to Pyramids. Worker will start working stone, and then wheel should be in by that time.

Turn 22 Washington converts to Buddhism. Meaning, Somebody on our continent has it. Call this an intuition but 99/100 times in my games it is Isabella who gets it! Anyone else notice this?



Turn 24 Wheel in, worker connecting stone, and fishing in 5. Remember, we need food. That’s given. Sheep on plains are bad resource right now. Clams give us 4f3c which is huge. This will be crucial later when we race for the GL.

Turn 26 India “discovers” Monotheism first (in Bombay). Asoka will be a monsta! If you press F4 (not alf-f4 ) you’ll see that Washington and Asoka are still cautious toward each other, while Elizabeth is pleased with both! This is all good for us, meaning we will have easier time if we decide later on what religion to adopt, if any.

Turn 29 Fishing in, start Pottery [9]. This is better than AH which comes 2 turns later, and Pottery gives us granaries. Again, we won’t work Sheep for food yet. AH will reveal horses (highly unlikely we have them here IMO), but even so we still won’t work that. I probably tested this position couple of dozen times, and we are even in safer position here given who out neighbors are.

Turn 32 Marble helps us a bit. Pyramids in 7!

Turn 35 Worker connects marble, and at the same time us to Washington and Asoka. This will help spread religion. Worker starts furs, and then will connect them.

Turn 36

Pottery in, and we start writing [12].

Turn 37

Stonehenge in!! 2560 BC. I’m glad we decided not to go for it…

Turn 39 And so just as we are about o get pyramids, Judeism spreads to us and wow Asoka comes asking us to adopt Judaism in the same turn LOL.

I alt-tabbed here, since I can’t save it right now Discuss this for a bit. My vote obviously goes for declining the offer this early, this will angry Washington, which we already have cultural pressure with (he needs -3 to be annoyed). Open borders will help us a bit, but I’m still against adopting a religion this early. Besides, even if we decide to go with Asoka later on, -1 will be lost soon enough. (If a civ requests you to change a religion this early and you refuse, the negative modifier also is lost soon enough!). Not to mention if Isabella is the one with Buddhism…Ugh!
Also the thing I noticed was, Washington has no Bronze, nor Iron! He only has archers, and had switched to Slavery ages ago. This is great news for us! Barracks and walls will take care of any slightest attempt on his side to attack.

Gratz on getting the pyramids guys!

The plan was correct and I think we have to decide on the next turns. This will include the best output of beakers, food , and shield for us so we get the Great Library in the best shape!

 

[Yamps]

Although I have one remark:

You should have improved deer first. When the worker was completed, the city was working deer location until it reached size 2. Or am I wrong?

Off we go!

I alt-tabbed here, since I can’t save it right now Discuss this for a bit. My vote obviously goes for declining the offer this early, this will angry Washington, which we already have cultural pressure with (he needs -3 to be annoyed). Open borders will help us a bit, but I’m still against adopting a religion this early. Besides, even if we decide to go with Asoka later on, -1 will be lost soon enough. (If a civ requests you to change a religion this early and you refuse, the negative modifier also is lost soon enough!). Not to mention if Isabella is the one with Buddhism…Ugh!

I agree with this observation. To early for religion now.

Of to sleep now. Hate those timezones when things get interesting!

 

[acidsatyr]

You should have improved deer first.

Oh but i did! Wasn't that the point of going for hunting
Worker made Deer camp first, then went to work stone.