SGOTM 07 - Unusual Suspects

[marconos]

Winning by Diplomacy isn't going to happen IMO, especially if we get a PA with one of the AI's, it will make the rest like us lest. I just don't see that happening. I just wonder if domination is actually possible in this mess depending on Continent size. If so then I believe that would be a faster possible option then space race. I guess we'll find out more when we get some maps and open borders going.

 

[vra379971]

In my games I didn't go slavery, because we've got great production and units are all under 3 turns to build and buildings (from memory) 5-7ish. But I'm not that practiced in egregious whipping!

I'm under the impression Caste System is better, as our production levels don't demand we whip.

 

[Yamps]

Looks to me like we should switch to HR and leverage the Crabs to grow some. Representation is only worth +2 , so HR is overall better until GT does away with the cap.

I looked in the Civlopedia and Representation didn't say anything about +2 happy -- is that a BTS only thing?

Yeah, it's just +1 in Vanilla.

I'm a tad hesitant about going the HRoute. We're not growing much as is and with the Libary we are planning to build The +3 beakers from all specialists we are hiring will be rather useful.

Representation is +2! Bts dll's maybe?
We need every extra research we can get to hurry things up. We won't have problems with the happy cap until we build the GL and by then we will almost have drama, if you agree to go after that. We can skip slavery, we shall soon have Caste. Revolting to Representation ASAP seems best to me. I think just before city growth and with some defense, when we build barracks and maybe walls to feel a bit safer.

Defense
We don't have archery yet so no archer building. Walls to feel safer maybe? But I don't believe we are going to be attacked, Washington won't archer rush us.

General thoughts
We want to rush for Alpha and GL so we want high research. But those are rather long time goals, so emphasizing growth with granary is logical.

Last, but not least, this is just a game after all. We don't need to be perfect. Just good enough.

Classical_Hero, you are next for play? What are your opinions?

Let's get this show on the road back again!

 

[classical_hero]

According to the game it is +2 . After the Barracks we build a granary, right? I think that we should go for growth now that we don't need too much production. I am thinking to using these tiles until we have a granary since it will be wasting growth. These tiles position also mean a turn increase of research over the previous turn, which means we can get some open borders earlier and get to alpha quicker.

Once we have the granary I will switch to the crabs and then build some work boats. for some more growth. That is what I think is best for the next remaining turnset of ten turns. I just hope we don't get an archer rush before we ge archery.

 

[shikhee]

Once we have the granary I will switch to the crabs and then build some work boats. for some more growth. That is what I think is best for the next remaining turnset of ten turns. I just hope we don't get an archer rush before we ge archery.

I haven't done the Balbes-esque math here but I suspect we will be able to switch to working the crabs while the granary is built (and yes, I agree with this strategy) - as long as it is built before we grow to 4 (at worst it might mean a few turns switching from stone to crabs). The production speed itself isn't as vital as getting granary before we expand.

(I think!)

And yes, Representation in BtS is +2 Happy.

Yamps How did you edit the maps ? I actually tried to play the game exactly as Acidsatyr did from the earlier saves, but could never properly sync up the production + tech (I could hit the techs same turns but Pyramids were in turn 40 rather than 38... or vice versa... must have been missing something!).

 

[Yamps]

Spoiler :

According to the game it is +2 . After the Barracks we build a granary, right? I think that we should go for growth now that we don't need too much production. I am thinking to using these tiles until we have a granary since it will be wasting growth. These tiles position also mean a turn increase of research over the previous turn, which means we can get some open borders earlier and get to alpha quicker.

This looks good to me. It is hard to say is it better to work the stone instead of fur maybe while we build a granary. We could test this of course, but it looks good.

Once we have the granary I will switch to the crabs and then build some work boats. for some more growth.

You mean to work the crab tile before the work boats are complete? That doesn't feel optimal. I would rush wb while working a stone tile.

I haven't done the Balbes-esque math here but I suspect we will be able to switch to working the crabs while the granary is built (and yes, I agree with this strategy) - as long as it is built before we grow to 4 (at worst it might mean a few turns switching from stone to crabs). The production speed itself isn't as vital as getting granary before we expand.

(I think!)

And yes, Representation in BtS is +2 Happy.

Yamps How did you edit the maps ? I actually tried to play the game exactly as Acidsatyr did from the earlier saves, but could never properly sync up the production + tech (I could hit the techs same turns but Pyramids were in turn 40 rather than 38... or vice versa... must have been missing something!).

Granary
Actually, the sooner we built the granary, more food is not lost. The granary works like this:

1) All surplus food is stored in the granary as well (you can't see this!)
2) When the food bar gets to the limit, all food stored in the granary gets transfered to the next level.
3) Granary can only store half of the food needed to reach the next level

Tricky thing that granary.
The Inner Mechanics of Food, Growth, Granary and Whipping by MestreLion

Representation
This is not Bts, but it does give +2 happiness in this game.

Map editing
You could use the old starting save I posted, enter WB and then change first neighbours. You still have to make exact moves as Acidsatyr did, AFAIK.

I'll be home in a few hours(4h), I'll upload the changed test game to match our current position as Acid left it if you wish to test it.

 

[Balbes]

A quick reminder how the Diplomatic victory works:

The candidates are the controller of the UN and the civ with the highest population among those without the UN.

Each civ has votes equal to the size of its cities added together. (City sizes on the map are updated every turn, even in fog-of-war.)

You need 66% (IIRC) votes to win.

To vote for the candidate, a civ must be at least +8 with him, otherwise it will abstain, and it must like him better than the other candidate.

The numbers in the F4 -> Glance screen do not take into account some hidden modifiers. The actual numbers used for voting decisions may be different.

 

[marconos]

I don't believe the Granary is of high importance for us. The reason for this is two fold.
1 -- We don't have the happiness to support large amounts of growth.
2 -- We don't have tiles improved that can give us large amounts of growth.

IMO: Barracks, Workboat, Granary maybe? Unless we are planning on improving the sheep to get that tile up and running. 4f 1h 1c tile is not too shabby.

 

[Yamps]

I don't believe the Granary is of high importance for us. The reason for this is two fold.
1 -- We don't have the happiness to support large amounts of growth.
2 -- We don't have tiles improved that can give us large amounts of growth.

IMO: Barracks, Workboat, Granary maybe? Unless we are planning on improving the sheep to get that tile up and running. 4f 1h 1c tile is not too shabby.

We will improve the sheep tile when we trade for AH.

About the granary:

1) We will get +1 form camp and +2 from representation. Current cap is 4, which means we can grow to size 7.

2) We will be growing fast enough with crabs, and much faster with granary than without it. That's the real benefit: we can spend more time working on other tiles because of faster growth.

Approximate calculation:

Spoiler :

Granary cost: 60 hammers
Granary benefits (till 1000 BC checkpoint):

1)Food saved(approximation):
13+14+15+16+17 = 75 food

(13 saved food growing to size 4 and so on. Note that 17 food is saved in granary although the city is still on size 7)

2)Faster city growth, larger population (almost 8), more tiles worked

That's a worthy investment, no? We have to built it eventually, better sooner than later.

Here is the test game matching our current position, but not with Washington and Asoka nearby. That doesn't matter for micromanagement.

 

[marconos]

K, I'm sold on the Granary, are you proposing before or after the Barracks? I say after as we are looking pretty yummy with just a warrior IMO.

 

[vra379971]

So you know, the Cap is actually +8, or will be when we get the Silver in two turns from now.

Anyway, we've about talked enough, on this, so unless modelling produces any new results, I'm going to finalize our plan (which is Classical's plan, except for his suggestion to switch to Crabs for growth. Stay on Marble till WB done.) and ask him to play it tonight.

 

[Yamps]

So you know, the Cap is actually +8, or will be when we get the Silver in two turns from now.

Anyway, we've about talked enough, on this, so unless modelling produces any new results, I'm going to finalize our plan (which is Classical's plan, except for his suggestion to switch to Crabs for growth. Stay on Marble till WB done.) and ask him to play it tonight.

Cap

Yes! Even better! I missed that silver, I didn't add that to the test game.
All right, some action to get us back on track!

 

[Melior Traiano]

Yeah, let's get this thing moving forward again. The plan sounds good.

 

[shikhee]

I'm sure theres big holes here still, but I find it useful to picture the next set of turns this way... heres what I did in the next 20ish turns, so this is our current strategy ? (is it okay with you guys if this format gets updated with latest strategy ? makes it easier to follow where we are up to, and the effect of changes)

40: work deer, marble, fur (for most of this I didn't use the stone at all favouring the extra gold for earlier Alphabet)
42: barracks (workboat next)
45: writing, workboat (granary next) (swapped to Representation, I don't see any reason to delay this ?)
46: work crab instead of fur, did swap around once so build granary 1 turn before growth
53: granary (walls next, wanted to increase our military presence and I feel warriors are just a waste, considering our neighbours we should be safe until we get archers)
54: size 4 (work deer, marble, fur, crab)
56: walls (library next - maybe workboat instead but we're growing well and will build the library about the same time as finding Alphabet and trading, so might want
something entirely else in our cue by then?)

---- end 20 turns ----

61: size 5
63: alphabet (trading suggestions?)
64: library (after trades, lighthouse for crab growth, archer for defense or obelisk for added culture, or workboat for super growth)

 

[Yamps]

I'm sure theres big holes here still, but I find it useful to picture the next set of turns this way... heres what I did in the next 20ish turns, so this is our current strategy ? (is it okay with you guys if this format gets updated with latest strategy ? makes it easier to follow where we are up to, and the effect of changes)

40: work deer, marble, fur (for most of this I didn't use the stone at all favouring the extra gold for earlier Alphabet)
42: barracks (workboat next)
45: writing, workboat (granary next) (swapped to Representation, I don't see any reason to delay this ?)
46: work crab instead of fur, did swap around once so build granary 1 turn before growth
53: granary (walls next, wanted to increase our military presence and I feel warriors are just a waste, considering our neighbours we should be safe until we get archers)
54: size 4 (work deer, marble, fur, crab)
56: walls (library next - maybe workboat instead but we're growing well and will build the library about the same time as finding Alphabet and trading, so might want
something entirely else in our cue by then?)

---- end 20 turns ----

61: size 5
63: alphabet (trading suggestions?)
64: library (after trades, lighthouse for crab growth, archer for defense or obelisk for added culture, or workboat for super growth)

I think I had the city on size 7 at turn 64, and still alpha on turn 63. I've built the second work boat early. I'll post the log in a few hours so we can compare the results. About the granary again : it seems to me that the optimal time for building it is just before the city is at half the needed food for growth (granary saves half of the needed food for growth max, less if we built it later than that)

Note that I've updated the test save to include the silver outside BFC. This increases cap to 8, it doesn't change micromanagement.

Well, like I said before, we don't need to be perfect. Just good enough.

 

[vra379971]

About the granary again : it seems to me that the optimal time for building it is just before the city is at half the needed food for growth (granary saves half of the needed food for growth max, less if we built it later than that)

Fair enough. We'll need to keep an eye out.

 

[Yamps]

Just a few quick questions:

What do you think about opening borders and "You have traded with our worst enemies?"

Are those two connected? We are going to trade Alpha with everybody if we can, but maybe we should wait a bit till opening borders. Also, I think it is likely that a war between two AI's will start soon. Maybe a wait and see tactic here?

 

[classical_hero]

Turn Zero (40). I swap the citizen working on the stone for the fur.

Turn one (41). I build a barracks and start a work boat.

Turn two (42). I have made a deal with India for Open borders. They must have writing. This gains us an extra 2 Which is important for research. I did that before I saw Yamps post.

Turn three (43). I road the deer.

Turn five (45). I build a work boat and start a Granary. We also discover Writing and start on Alphabet. We get it in 18 turns. I was going to revolt to Rep, but we have no GP, so it is a waste right now and we are not in any hurry for that extra happiness. I get Open boarders with everyone except Japan, "They don't like me enough".

Turn six (46). I get some crabs.

Turn seven (47). The Oracle is built somewhere. We have thee silver in our Cultural boarder and the American are roading it for us, aren't they nice?

Turn eight (48). The Parthenon is built far away. I start to mine the silver.

Turn nine (49). We have a source of cow to get for some extra health.

Turn ten(50). Confucianism is found in a distant land.

Turn twelve (52). We build a granary and start on a work boat. We need more growth.

Turn thirteen (53) The Great lighthouse has been built far away.

Turn fourteen (54). Japan converts to Buddhism.

Turn sixteen (56). We build a work boat and start on walls.

Turn nineteen (59). We build a wall and start on a library.

Turn twenty (60). We met Spain and sign an Open boarder agreement. They founded Buddhism. It is a shame that we don't have Buddhism in our capital, otherwise it would have been wise to switch to it, so we want to tray and get into the Buddhism sect. Also Beijing is about to grow next turn so once we have Alpha, we need to switch to Rep and get the extra happiness.

 

[Yamps]

Scout
We need him before Alpha to have contact with all civs before trading.

Revolting

Isn't it better to revolt earlier to lose less? We must hurry for the GL, AI's will have Literacy very fast.

Turnsets

Didn't we say ~10 turns of play?

Sorry for being a bit of a nag...

 

[Balbes]

Scout - We need him before Alpha to have contact with all civs before trading.

Will our worker still have any useful tasks to do by then?

Isn't it better to revolt earlier to lose less?

No, it's a common misconception. With each turn of anarchy you loss is equal to your production in the turn after the game ends. To illustrate: suppose your game lasted 200 turns and you revolted once at turn 30. You did not produce anything on T30 but you produced that amount on T31. Your T31 production is now T32... On the other hand, whatever you would have produced on T200, now shifted to T201 but the game ended before that.

So it is better to combine civic changes to minimize the total turns of anarchy, unless you absolutely need that civic now.

We must hurry for the GL, AI's will have Literacy very fast.

Actually they tend to neglect the Alphabet-Literature branch...