SGOTM 07 - Unusual Suspects

[marconos]

Why is the liberalism race so important?

I do not want to waste a great person to get a free tech. That doesn't make sense to me.

Here is another though on the liberalism race, if we win it and get one tech to trade, but we missed 4 possible trade earlier trying to get there .... did we really gain anything? I think we need to evaluate how important that really is compared to keeping our selves out of a war.

Pacifism, we need to switch to this + Judaism now. Great people are the only thing that is going to keep us in this game and we need to get them growing as quickly as possible.

Julius Ceasar as a PA partner, IMO, not going to happen. He's too powerful and I believe he is going to stay there. Asoka is going to be rough as he goes with Free Religion. Washington is a waste and pretty much dead. Elizabeth would be nice but too close to us and borders are going to be an issue. IMO we may want to reevaluate our options here. (Not going to be able to give troops to Catherine as she isn't on our continent.)

So IMO, trade for as much as we can. The computers are all staying around the same level of teching. Asoka got Philosopy last round when he traded for I think Music, sorry forgot to mention that one.

My suggestions
Get Fuedalism now and upgrade those Archers.
Get Compass now for the bonus commerce and healthy. With the extra healthy that it gives us we may be able to trade cows, sheep, fish etc for 10 turns for extra commerce for awhile. We need to think outside the box here.
Crossbowman would be great to have but not going to happen since we don't even have metal casting yet. Here again I think we have been too worried about tech trading and it's costing us too much.

So
Rule: Paper is not up for trade until we have education.
Convert to Judaism
Trade for Fuedalism, Compass, Monotheism + Cash from Catherine, or someone else, but get these items.
Upgrade Archers to Longbowman
Work a water tile not the farm and Marble, get a 5th Scientist.
Bribe Ceasar to adopt Judaism.
Try to trade for Metal Casting
Turn 2
Switch to Pacifism
Try to trade for Machinery, again paper is not up for sale.
Turn 3
Build Longbow, keep 5 scientists so we keep research up.

At this point I really don't care if Washington declares war on us or not. I would actually think it would be to our benefit if he does. He is week with no metal units and we can use him to upgrade our military so when we have a real opponent we are in better shape. Another benefit of having a war is bribing someone to go to war on him with us, it's great for relationships. I didn't really agree with spending the turns to build missionaries for him.

My basic rules of thumb for this OOC
Always settle Great People, anything else is a complete waste.
Never be the lowest in Military power, it is just inviting trouble, we are in horrible shape ATM.
I'm not sold that liberalism is an end all for us if we have to sacrifice everything to get it. If we can get it great, if not we will still be okay. At this point our entire focus should be on doing what we can to get a PA partner going, we are a long ways off from this at this point, converting to Judaism is the most important step at this time.

Those are my thoughts at this time.

 

[kcd_swede]

Izzy 7/6 (reached limit! But we are both under 50% so she will trade.)
Toku 11/6 (why am I still counting him? He'll never trade anyway.)
Wash 9/12
Asoka 10/12
Liz 11/18
Alex, JC 4/6
Capac 3/6
Fred 2/12
Kublai 2/12
Cathy 0/MaxCathyLimit (need to look that up)

Catherine's limit is 18 at deity (15 + 20%). No problem there.

 

[shikhee]

Didn't someone say that DP can be with the highest power as long as we are not the 2nd highest power ?

I agree with Marconos about GP (build into city, no bulbs), we are leading the Liberalism race, and unless we trade Paper + Education too early we should have no problem with this. I also think we will be able to afford 1 turn to get Pacifism (religion can still wait a tiny bit longer). The reason we go for Liberalism first is the free tech, which I believe we are going to choose Astronomy (is there any other techs we *must* have so we can definately get Astronomy) ?

For trades, we do want Feudalism, Machinery and Compass... I think we will be safe military with Feudalism OR Machinery (as long as we get Longbows or Maces I think we will be safe). I like Compass so we can meet the civs on the other side of the world, even get a few Missionaries over there if we can.

Diplomacy has so much to remember and so many factors I'm still confused and have nothing to offer here

 

[classical_hero]

Here is how I will do the city on the first turn. Notice that I move the none commerce farm to the coast to get the extra income and thus it improve our science by 10 from the previous tile selection, plus it means that we can still grow, which is better than than going for a scientist and not growing meaning we will be stuck on twelve.

Also I think that if we get a great Artists we use it for a culture bomb since we know that Lizzy is going to use hers in Nottingham, so hopefully we can stop the additional culture from her great artist from being used and thus hopefully get rid of Nottingham. If we get a Great Scientist then getting Education faster is a good option due to the fact we can get a Uni and Oxford much earlier is a good thing an it will help us with our research capabilities.

 

[Yamps]

Well, let's get the discussion going. I tend to disagree on some points.

Why is the liberalism race so important?

I do not want to waste a great person to get a free tech. That doesn't make sense to me.

Here is another though on the liberalism race, if we win it and get one tech to trade, but we missed 4 possible trade earlier trying to get there .... did we really gain anything? I think we need to evaluate how important that really is compared to keeping our selves out of a war.

Astronomy is the desired tech, 2860. More importantly, we don't want AI to get it. They could choose sth else, Nationalism for example. We want the Taj Mahal for us and to get MT first. Are we really missing anything? We will trade our soul out end get everything few turns before Liberalism anyway. There will be a lot of civs not knowing CS and Philosophy when we discover Education too. Diplomacy is the key thing to keep us out of the war, our power will be low for some time, you can't really change that with a few LB. I agree with settling the GP, we should be able to afford that.

Pacifism, we need to switch to this + Judaism now. Great people are the only thing that is going to keep us in this game and we need to get them growing as quickly as possible.

I think we can wait for 8 turns, that won't change a lot. We have to bribe people with techs when we convert, let's wait a bit.

Julius Ceasar as a PA partner, IMO, not going to happen. He's too powerful and I believe he is going to stay there. Asoka is going to be rough as he goes with Free Religion. Washington is a waste and pretty much dead. Elizabeth would be nice but too close to us and borders are going to be an issue. IMO we may want to reevaluate our options here. (Not going to be able to give troops to Catherine as she isn't on our continent.)

Cathy is taking over the power lead, we have good chances with JC. There could be some problems with JC, I agree, we need a secondary target. Capac or Fred for example, they are Jewish. Liz will adopt free religion too, that's her favorite civic. Washington isn't dead, why do you think that? He can keep New York with troops and that tile percentage is decreasing slowly anyway. He could settle artists like Liz too. We'll be able to gift units with galleons if we have to.

Asoka got Philosopy last round when he traded for I think Music, sorry forgot to mention that one.

Who did he traded it to? Nobody new has Music: Liz had it before and Cathy doesn't have Philosophy. Sth else happened, he probably researched it himself.

My suggestions
Get Fuedalism now and upgrade those Archers.
Get Compass now for the bonus commerce and healthy. With the extra healthy that it gives us we may be able to trade cows, sheep, fish etc for 10 turns for extra commerce for awhile. We need to think outside the box here.
Crossbowman would be great to have but not going to happen since we don't even have metal casting yet. Here again I think we have been too worried about tech trading and it's costing us too much.

• 2 archer upgrades would only bring 4000 soldier for power.
• Harbor doesn't give health on its own, it uses Fish, Crab and Clam to provide extra health, no health resource trading. Only JC and Fred have some gold, we can trade happiness resources. We should do it aggressively to extort gold.
• We'll get Machinery soon, don't worry about the trades.

At this point I really don't care if Washington declares war on us or not. I would actually think it would be to our benefit if he does. He is week with no metal units and we can use him to upgrade our military so when we have a real opponent we are in better shape. Another benefit of having a war is bribing someone to go to war on him with us, it's great for relationships. I didn't really agree with spending the turns to build missionaries for him.

That war would cost us dearly. LBs are strong, we would need lot of troops to tackle them. That wouldn't go well with Pacifism. We would have to lower our research and fall behind. Who would you bribe to go to war? Everybody likes Washington. They would probably dogpile on us instead.

My basic rules of thumb for this OOC:

Always settle Great People, anything else is a complete waste.
Never be the lowest in Military power, it is just inviting trouble, we are in horrible shape ATM.
I'm not sold that liberalism is an end all for us if we have to sacrifice everything to get it. If we can get it great, if not we will still be okay. At this point our entire focus should be on doing what we can to get a PA partner going, we are a long ways off from this at this point, converting to Judaism is the most important step at this time.

• Settling GP is the main idea, agreed. If we get a GE, we should consider keeping it, we might need it later on.
• Yes, we need more power, but small increases won't keep us safe from war. Diplomacy and fast DP are the only way.
• We are not sacrificing the trades, but power is a concern. That's why I suggested HR for Drama + 90 gold for 10000(!) soldiers, archer and 2 cats for 8000 soldiers. That should be fine for 8 turns. After that, trading time for lot of military techs.
• PA partner is the most important thing, I agree. However, let's keep in mind that same religion bonuses have a cap. For JC, that's only +3, For Fred +4 and Capac +5. Increase is +1 per 10 turn according to the personality file and it will take ~45 turns till MT. I think we can wait 8 turns. Negative religion bonuses on the other hand accumulate much faster: -1 per 5 turns. Lot of Buddhists out there.

We need more opinions, let's discuss this.

 

[Yamps]

Didn't someone say that DP can be with the highest power as long as we are not the 2nd highest power ?

I also think we will be able to afford 1 turn to get Pacifism (religion can still wait a tiny bit longer). The reason we go for Liberalism first is the free tech, which I believe we are going to choose Astronomy (is there any other techs we *must* have so we can definately get Astronomy) ?

• No, we can't align with the highest power, AFAIK.
• Pacifism doesn't work without the religion.
• Yeah, we need the whole beeline for Astronomy : MC, Compass,Machinery, Optics. I propose we trade CS and Philosophy after we get Education and Education one or 2 turns before the discovery of Liberalism. That will bring us everything IMO.

Here is how I will do the city on the first turn. Notice that I move the none commerce farm to the coast to get the extra income and thus it improve our science by 10 from the previous tile selection, plus it means that we can still grow, which is better than than going for a scientist and not growing meaning we will be stuck on twelve.

Yes, you are right, that's the way to go! I switched the wrong farm to the coast yesterday, I was a bit tired.

Also I think that if we get a great Artists we use it for a culture bomb since we know that Lizzy is going to use hers in Nottingham, so hopefully we can stop the additional culture from her great artist from being used and thus hopefully get rid of Nottingham. If we get a Great Scientist then getting Education faster is a good option due to the fact we can get a Uni and Oxford much earlier is a good thing an it will help us with our research capabilities.

Nottingham actually has some use, English culture is protecting us from overseas invasion. That's of course only true if England keeps closed borders with our foes. Let's wait and see what she'll do. Settling the GA might be better than bombing.

We wouldn't build the University and Oxford soon enough to hurry Liberalism. Actually, moving the scientist to hills to hurry production would probably cause delays. I think that the GS should be settled.

GE we should keep IMO. I've discovered a nasty UN building trick recently, I'll tell you about it. I don't really think diplo is an option here, but a GE could be of some wonder building use later.

 

[Melior Traiano]

Sorry I haven't been keeping tabs on the game of late team; I've had family in town and I had enough on my hands.

So I've looked at the latest save & have some observations/ideas:

• First thing I always check is WHEOOHRN status. No one is planning a war ATM.
  
  
• The Asoka Incense-Silver trade has outlived its usefulness. Might as well cancel that trade. Doesn't look like we're picking up 'supplied us with resources' bonuses anyway. Might as well take our resources & use every trick in the book to wring from the AI's.
  
  
• Looking at the 'Glance' screen, looks like we need to be careful when trading with Liz, Fred & Alex because they could be worst enemies to multiple other AI's.
  
  
• Looking at the Power curves, it seems Cathy has fought a war over on the other side of the world. Looks like she belongs to a large Hindu bloc, that is about twice the size of a Confucian bloc. So let's be careful about trading with Cathy, as she could well be someone worst enemy over there & ruining diplomacy before even meeting the rest of the mystery AI's could come back to haunt us.
  
  
• It appears we are in the driver's seat for the Liberalism race. Astronomy would be a nice free tech to pick up. An alternative is Economics for the free GM. Also, Nationalism is a possibility, as it's on the way to Military Tradition. The beauty of choosing between Astro & Econ is we can trade up to Machinery before deciding which to shoot for, so we're not forced to commit to a certain research path immediately. The Econ route will take us through Banking & will unlock the ability to make a 2 for 1 Mercantilism + Pacifism civic switch. But I wonder if one more spec is worth giving up all trade routes.
  
  
• Some of the AI's have unlocked possible Paper trades by researching Theology, as they don't know CS yet. Some don't know Theology nor CS yet. George is the only AI with CS, so he's probably gonna trade it around if another AI gets it. We should weigh the option of trading CS around to get good value for it before the AI's start researching it themselves. We should try to pick up some cash in trades so we have more flexibility in subsequent trades without having to trade away even more techs to complete deals.
  
  
• Bulbing vs settling GS: It looks like if we play our cards right, we can win the Lib race easy without bulbing. So I lean toward merging the (likely) GS next turn.
  
  
• PA partner: I still think that if we can pull it off, the PA partner of choice is Caesar. With any other AI, we will be very reliant on shared religion to build up bonuses, because 'wise civics' isn't going to help us any. We should recon Caesar's military capabilities compared to the other AI's and see if maybe we can sic him on someone to bring him down in Power some.
  
  
• Well, that's kind of it as far as my take on the current situation. I'm going to need some more time to think about which specific tech trades to make. Monotheism & Horseback Riding are useless for our purposes, let's not trade for those.

 

[kcd_swede]

The Econ route will take us through Banking & will unlock the ability to make a 2 for 1 Mercantilism + Pacifism civic switch. But I wonder if one more spec is worth giving up all trade routes.

How much is our trade route(s) netting us now? More than what we could get from a free spec? I doubt it. And don't forget the GPP.

 

[Yamps]

The Asoka Incense-Silver trade has outlived its usefulness. Might as well cancel that trade. Doesn't look like we're picking up 'supplied us with resources' bonuses anyway. Might as well take our resources & use every trick in the book to wring from the AI's.

We could use the resources we use too, Fur and Silver, but yeah there seems to be no point of feeding Asoka anymore.

Looking at the 'Glance' screen, looks like we need to be careful when trading with Liz, Fred & Alex because they could be worst enemies to multiple other AI's.

Do you agree we should therefore refrain from selling resources to Fred? That leaves only JC. Others have 0 gpt available, it isn't advisable to give them gpt for the trick.

It appears we are in the driver's seat for the Liberalism race. Astronomy would be a nice free tech to pick up. An alternative is Economics for the free GM. Also, Nationalism is a possibility, as it's on the way to Military Tradition. The beauty of choosing between Astro & Econ is we can trade up to Machinery before deciding which to shoot for, so we're not forced to commit to a certain research path immediately. The Econ route will take us through Banking & will unlock the ability to make a 2 for 1 Mercantilism + Pacifism civic switch. But I wonder if one more spec is worth giving up all trade routes.

It doesn't look like we'll get Banking in time to unlock Economy. Nationalism is a possibility, we can evaluate that later. Trade routes are actually worth more. We have 2 routes at the moment, 4 commerce each. Harbor will ad +50%, Bur ads +50% more. (8 + 100% = 16 ). Scientist would bring +6 and 3gpp. I don't think we can postpone religion adopting that much, we should adopt Pacifism sooner IMO.

Some of the AI's have unlocked possible Paper trades by researching Theology, as they don't know CS yet. Some don't know Theology nor CS yet. George is the only AI with CS, so he's probably gonna trade it around if another AI gets it. We should weigh the option of trading CS around to get good value for it before the AI's start researching it themselves. We should try to pick up some cash in trades so we have more flexibility in subsequent trades without having to trade away even more techs to complete deals.

The main issue to solve is the trade timing question. We have to time the trades with the JC bribing and conversion. Washington should be bribed too IMO very soon after we adopt Judaism to get him to pleased before the negative religion points kick in. I don't think that Washington is going to trade CS if another civ gets CS:

iNoTechTradeThreshold = 10 (will trade to friends regardless of iTTKP, but Izzy is his only friend, she doesn't have stuff for trade)
iTechTradeKnownPercent = 30 (30% of the known civs have to know the tech for him to start trading. There are 12 civs, and only two of us know CS. One more civ knowing CS should be okay)

I'm advocating trading after we bag Education after 8 turns. We should reevaluate of course when and if another civ gets CS or Philosophy during those 8 turns. It matters who gets it, that civ could also start trading. So, what do you people think, trading know, or a bit later?

I'm going to need some more time to think about which specific tech trades to make. Monotheism & Horseback Riding are useless for our purposes, let's not trade for those.

Yeah HR sounds bad, but it is bringing 10000 soldiers and if we get it from Izzy it won't cause relevant WFYBTA difficulties. AI could sneak attack, war can happen without WHEOOHRN. I agree we shouldn't trade for Mono, we can research Mono in 1 turn at some point. Mono opens Theology, Theology tech brokering is a possibility to consider. We need 2 turns for HR, btw, and 3 turns for MC and Compass. We should consult the WFYBTA status report when trading, I posted it a few posts back.

 

[Yamps]

Ankka, Vra379971, what's the situation with the save opening?

To quote AlanH:

(Trouble Getting MOTM to Work)

hahaha I got it to work now. I was putting it in the wrong folder...errrr yeah....even though you didnt give me helpful advice, your message inspired me to run the assets checker again for about the 10th time. then I noticed that the folder it was checking was different then the folder i put in the dll. wow

I tend to avoid asking, "Are you sure you're putting it in the right place?", when someone believes they are, as it sounds rather rude. But maybe I should be less tactful

 

[marconos]

A good number of suggestions and analysis has been posted. Who is next? Do they have the save? What is their plan? When are they going to make their moves? Let's keep this thing going guys.

 

[Yamps]

A good number of suggestions and analysis has been posted. Who is next? Do they have the save? What is their plan? When are they going to make their moves? Let's keep this thing going guys.

Yes, we should keep the show going. I'll resume the captaincy job if you don't mind while Vra is sorting things out.

Here is the roster:

1 - marconos - Just played!
2 - classical_hero - UP!
3 - kcd_swede - On Deck!
4 - Melior Traiano
5 - Morganknight
6 - shikhee
7 - Yamps

8 - Ankka (save opening problems)
9 - vra379971 (save opening problems)

10 - Balbes (lost contact)

classical_hero, please post your exact plans. Specifically, what are your thoughts on trading and religion adopting, when should we do it?

kcd_swede, please start preparing for your turns, watch closely what's going on.

The idea was to play a bit longer turnsets, but it seems to me a bit shorter turns are natural at this point. I also believe it is good to speed up the play rotation, to keep the interest and game dynamics.

 

[vra379971]

Yes, still having problems, but going to give it yet another go tomorrow. And as for AlanH, frankly, you need to know you are putting it in the wrong place to well...know if you are putting it in the wrong place <.<

"Even though you didnt give me helpful advice..." Yeah, my feelings exactly. Ah well.

The idea was to play a bit longer turnsets, but it seems to me a bit shorter turns are natural at this point. I also believe it is good to speed up the play rotation, to keep the interest and game dynamics.

True. However, while we do need to tighten up turnover time, which we will do starting now to two-three turnsets a week, we still need to keep at a turn total of around 10-15 turns a player (ending at when a major decision point/result comes up) in order to make our deadline, now less than 45 days away. While you are right, the natural inclination would be toward less turns, we are planning well in advance, and due to the limited scope of the game (OCC) larger turn sets aren't really a negative thing.

Will comment in the morning on the game, and thanks again Yamps for dealing with the roster.

 

[Melior Traiano]

Do you agree we should therefore refrain from selling resources to Fred? That leaves only JC. Others have 0 gpt available, it isn't advisable to give them gpt for the trick.

If we're converting Caesar to Judaism, Fred should no longer cause worst enemy issues. So I think trading with either of those two should be OK. We should keep on eye on available gpt, as that can change. More income will allow us to support a bigger army for deterrent purposes.

It doesn't look like we'll get Banking in time to unlock Economy. Nationalism is a possibility, we can evaluate that later. Trade routes are actually worth more. We have 2 routes at the moment, 4 commerce each. Harbor will ad +50%, Bur ads +50% more. (8 + 100% = 16 ). Scientist would bring +6 and 3gpp. I don't think we can postpone religion adopting that much, we should adopt Pacifism sooner IMO.

I think you're probably right. But isn't adopting a religion going to take another turn of anarchy?

The main issue to solve is the trade timing question. We have to time the trades with the JC bribing and conversion. Washington should be bribed too IMO very soon after we adopt Judaism to get him to pleased before the negative religion points kick in. I don't think that Washington is going to trade CS if another civ gets CS:

iNoTechTradeThreshold = 10 (will trade to friends regardless of iTTKP, but Izzy is his only friend, she doesn't have stuff for trade)
iTechTradeKnownPercent = 30 (30% of the known civs have to know the tech for him to start trading. There are 12 civs, and only two of us know CS. One more civ knowing CS should be okay)

Again, looks like you're right.

I'm advocating trading after we bag Education after 8 turns. We should reevaluate of course when and if another civ gets CS or Philosophy during those 8 turns. It matters who gets it, that civ could also start trading. So, what do you people think, trading know, or a bit later?

I would check with potential trade partners each turn to see if they start to offer less for CS (that's the sign their own research on the tech is in progress) and pull the trigger on trades before CS depreciates too far. It's tedious, but diligence can be handsomely rewarded.

Yeah HR sounds bad, but it is bringing 10000 soldiers and if we get it from Izzy it won't cause relevant WFYBTA difficulties. AI could sneak attack, war can happen without WHEOOHRN. I agree we shouldn't trade for Mono, we can research Mono in 1 turn at some point. Mono opens Theology, Theology tech brokering is a possibility to consider. We need 2 turns for HR, btw, and 3 turns for MC and Compass. We should consult the WFYBTA status report when trading, I posted it a few posts back.

I don't think Theology has high enough trade value to be of much use to us, TBH. Five of the AI's already know it. HR from Izzy, I guess I can go along with that, she shouldn't be anyone's worst enemy.

 

[kcd_swede]

Yes, we should keep the show going. I'll resume the captaincy job if you don't mind while Vra is sorting things out.

kcd_swede, please start preparing for your turns, watch closely what's going on.

I'm watching, but I must say that the diplomacy and tech trading plans are a a bit over my head. I'll be counting on lots of help with my plans, in as much detail as possible, when the time comes. Esp. if there is to be micromanaging for growth/prod/res/etc

Just to see if I'm following: We plan to trade CS & Philo to pretty much everybody about 2 turns before Liberalism. However, we will watch to be sure an AI doesn't beat us to the CS fire-sale. We would like to time the Caesar conversion to Judaism to be just after (1 turn pre-liberal?) the tech trade so that we can bribe him to convert. Rome is our tentative primary PA target at the moment, but Capac/Fred are backup options because of common relig. We like Rome because their fav civs are ones we benefit from.

We are worried about being far down in power compared to AI (and compared to other SGOTM07 teams). During our tech trading orgy we therefore will want to pick up a few military techs including HR, to get power up. But we want Astro from Liber race, so MC>Comp>Mach>Opt are pre-requisites.

We will take one turn to anarchy convert to Judiasm as state relig. When? Right away or just before JC conversion? We will take one turn to become pacifists, but not yet.

I will be checking WHEOOHRN status every leader every turn, save and post here if something turns up. Manually save game every turn before hitting enter, and take screenshot of anything interesting.

I won't accept any AI initiated trade offers. If they hit me up for tribute (which is almost certain given our power, I think), who do I appease and who do I brush off? Are there any things I should never give as tribute to anybody (even JC) such as Edu (assuming b4 Liberalism)?

Worker... should she just go around putting roads on all the forest tiles after resources are hooked up? Pre-chopping? Sth else?

GP: settle any GP we get except if its GE, which we save and decide what to do with him later.

After Lib race we make beeline for Military Trad to get DP started.

We have resources we can trade for cash or health, or not.

Build queue: We're building an aqueduct, I think. I have no idea what comes next or after that.

Hopefully I have a better grasp of the game after Classical_Hero makes and executes his plan. Please correct any misunderstandings I may have at this point, though.

 

[Yamps]

@Kcd_swede

You've stated many ideas. Here are some comments:

Just to see if I'm following: We plan to trade CS & Philo to pretty much everybody about 2 turns before Liberalism.

No, that would be too late probably. 1 or 2 turns before Liberalism is the right time for Education trading. I suggested trading CS & Philo when we convert to Judaism and discover Education. We can trade earlier if we have to:

I would check with potential trade partners each turn to see if they start to offer less for CS (that's the sign their own research on the tech is in progress) and pull the trigger on trades before CS depreciates too far. It's tedious, but diligence can be handsomely rewarded.

However, we will watch to be sure an AI doesn't beat us to the CS fire-sale. We would like to time the Caesar conversion to Judaism to be just after (1 turn pre-liberal?) the tech trade so that we can bribe him to convert. Rome is our tentative primary PA target at the moment, but Capac/Fred are backup options because of common relig. We like Rome because their fav civs are ones we benefit from.

We need to convert first and then ask Caesar to convert too. We can do the tech trade at the same time. Religion can't be postponed much longer, it takes time to accumulate positive points. Yes, there will be two turns of anarchy, one turn for the religion and one turn for Pacifism, but that's the way to go, IMO.

We are worried about being far down in power compared to AI (and compared to other SGOTM07 teams). During our tech trading orgy we therefore will want to pick up a few military techs including HR, to get power up. But we want Astro from Liber race, so MC>Comp>Mach>Opt are pre-requisites.

Yes, we need more power. Military techs will bring it, HR we can afford from Izzy and we can build troops.

We will take one turn to anarchy convert to Judiasm as state relig. When? Right away or just before JC conversion? We will take one turn to become pacifists, but not yet.

We have to convert first, it's not possible to ask JC to do it too before that.

I won't accept any AI initiated trade offers. If they hit me up for tribute (which is almost certain given our power, I think), who do I appease and who do I brush off? Are there any things I should never give as tribute to anybody (even JC) such as Edu (assuming b4 Liberalism)?

This is sth important to think about. We don't want to give strategic techs, glance table has to be examined closely before hitting "end turn".

Worker... should she just go around putting roads on all the forest tiles after resources are hooked up? Pre-chopping? Sth else?

There is iron there to hook up.

GP: settle any GP we get except if its GE, which we save and decide what to do with him later.

Yes, GE could have some use later, UN and Space Elevator for example.

After Lib race we make beeline for Military Trad to get DP started.

That's the idea.

We have resources we can trade for cash or health, or not.

We can aggressively sell our happy resources, we don't have a use for them because of the GT.

Build queue: We're building an aqueduct, I think. I have no idea what comes next or after that.

Aqueduct is done, archer is in the queue. We should build troops, we need them and we can afford them.


Okay, like Vra said, we do have a deadline. I expect to see plans from Classical_Hero shortly. Short final discussion after that and game play. We have a fine speed compared to other teams and I believe we'll start playing faster very soon.

 

[classical_hero]

I think the first thing I will do is revolt to Judaism, unless we want to wait until education, because they really are the only good times to revolt. So that would mean two turns or revolution.

The general goal with techs trading is that we should wait until perhaps until four turns until Education before we trade away CS and Philo since we should hav enough of a head start on getting Liberalism. So for us to get Astronomy we will need to trade for MC, Compass, Machinery and Optics. Since this is also on the path towards Banking it might be also good to see what we can get along that way also, since getting a free GM will greatly improve our financial situation, which does need some help. But the main goal should be trying to get the most expensive tech, which is why we should try for steel. Seriously, if we delay too long selling CS and PHilo then we might not get anything from it.

Basically this turnset will be about one for Diplomacy probabilities and looking our for the tech trading potential.

About builds I am thinking of building a temple just for the culture, since we will need to have some culture going since we are about to get bombed by Lizzy. If I get a genral agreement then I will play tomorrow.

 

[Yamps]

I think the first thing I will do is revolt to Judaism, unless we want to wait until education, because they really are the only good times to revolt. So that would mean two turns or revolution.

I believe the best time for revolt is when you do the tech trades. This is important, if JC drops to cautious we won't be able to convert him. There will be an immediate relations drop and -1 every 5 turns. There is a cap to this, of course. Consider bribing Washington with Philosophy at some point, if you see he is researching it. It would be good to get him to pleased and convert him later too.

Watch the tech prices as Melior suggested for best timing. Drama + some gold for HR (10000 soldiers) from Izzy is sth we can afford. Look at the WFYBTA book account. Do you understand how I made it?

About builds I am thinking of building a temple just for the culture, since we will need to have some culture going since we are about to get bombed by Lizzy.

She will probably settle the GA. Temple could be useful later for a priest specialist too. Use your best judgment on the build order, we do need some troops.

Some recommendations:

• Study the save closely before you play.
• Please write down more detailed plans, at least for yourself, to make sure you haven't missed anything. There were many ideas posted here.
• Cancel the Silver to Asoka and trade it JC. Don't just trade it to him for 2gpt he has, try to extort more. Do you understand how to do it? I posted the trick mechanics before.
• Look at the personality file too to better understand AI trading plans.
• When trading, look at the WFYBTA account and diplomatic relations. We would like to trade with the civs with the lower WFYBTA first and open up new techs for example.

If I get a general agreement then I will play tomorrow.

Yes, ~24h should be more than enough time, we discussed a lot already. It will take 8 turns till Education and 2 turns for the revolts. 10 turns is a reasonable period at this point. Use your best judgment and post before if necessary.

Good luck!

 

[marconos]

Sounds good to me Classic ... let's see what happens!

 

[shikhee]

@Kcd_swede
Yes, GE could have some use later, UN and Space Elevator for example.

We won't be able to build Space Elevator because of our map position (too close to the ice-caps!). I think its a waste not to build a GE so we can use him much further in the future - we will almost definately get more by the time we can build the UN, and not using that GE bonus for all those turns I think is a huge waste.