SGOTM 07 - Unusual Suspects

[Yamps]

Recommendations:

sell Fur to JC for 2

Old idea: sell Cow to Cathy for Fish. That will bring back 1 . We'll cancel that when we get our Fish back.

EDIT: I agree with Melior, sell the Stone instead.

Old idea:

Forge has to wait now. Chop the pre-chopped forest to Hermitage, MM one coast tile to the mine and starve the city a bit with -1 We need the Hermitage ASAP. Forest should bring ~90 actually. (30 base times 3, I forgot about the Bureaucracy bonus before.) Build the work boat after that, maybe we get some good deals with the Whales.

We are losing the Silver, too! Tile is at 49% (!) for us. We will need the Whales.

EDIT: Selling Stone will bring back all health, Forge after Hermitage, then Work Boat and Grens. That forest has no use, now is the time to chop it. (We have 7 forests, 6 are bringing 3 )

JC is annoyed with Hatty and Mansa Musa, make sure you don't trade with them. Alex still doesn't want to speak with us, he can really hold a grudge.

AI still protects Printing Press and Corporation monopoly, hopefully that will change when we finish research on Steel in 6 turns. It is hard to tell, but it is a good bet that someone else will research PP soon.

Good luck!

 

[classical_hero]

One thing that I would have done was build the Hermitage straight away since I could see that culture is very important in this game, since the more cultural spread we can have the better.

 

[marconos]

All makes sense ... I was tired and that culture bomb sucked. I figured a good point to stop. Will get another 10 turns done tonight.

Trades will go through -- stone for fish and will sell the Fur. Was really hoping to maximize some cash. I will cancel the 1 gpt gift to Ceasar as soon as I can.

Research will continue down the path as planned.

Production will be switched to Hermitage and I will get that out as quickly as possible. I was waiting on the forest chop as we didn't have a pressing need (worker was building a road). This seems to be a pressing need so ya .

The only people that I care about keeping happy with trades are our current friends. Not too worried about the other continent. The trade for gold I did make no one on our continent that is a friend new about them. I really don't care what Mans Musa thinks about us. He is just someone we will destroy later IMO.

 

[Yamps]

The only people that I care about keeping happy with trades are our current friends. Not too worried about the other continent. The trade for gold I did make no one on our continent that is a friend new about them. I really don't care what Mans Musa thinks about us. He is just someone we will destroy later IMO.

Please be careful! We don't want to push our luck. We won't fight everybody, and certainly not everybody at the same time. It would be wise to have some friends on the other continent.

For example, Cyrus is important to us. He is pleased and the relations will get better, his favorite civic is Representation, we are already getting some bonuses because of that. It is hard to get Cyrus to war, but if he gets to Friendly, we can ask him to attack somebody on his continent! The trade you made with Louis brought him closer to us, if he gets pleased we can ask him too to attack somebody. War will keep the AI busy and slow them down. Cathy for example is Confucian, there are many Hindu civs there, it would be good for us to start the war there.

Watch the relations closely please, there are many opportunities for us on the other continent. Sending missionaries there is a strong option to consider. You get the principle: make some friends, bribe them to go to war with your enemies and keep them all busy while you conquer someone else.

We will also want to trade with the other continent, the trading limits on our continent are reached.

EDIT:

Our Caravel is well placed for spying. We'll soon see how many forces Cathy has and if she is building Galleons. Spain and Japan are also near, we need to know how many troops are there.

 

[Yamps]

@Classical_Hero

Hi there!

You can expect to play very soon. I'll play my turns after Marconos, you'll be up next.

 

[marconos]

Quick question: We now have steel but no Iron yet. The only person that has Printing Press that will trade it to us is Ceasar.

Possible Trades:
200g, PP and World Map for Military Tradition
PP for Chemistry and 390g
PP, Theology, World Map and 200g for Chemistry and Liberalism

We can research PP in 3 turn. I'm opting to research it. I will wait till 10:00 EST before I finish this turn. Only 4 turns left for me now.

 

[marconos]

And the turns resume ....

900 AD Turn 155
Trade Stone to Cathy for Fish
Trade Fur to Ceasar for 2 gpt

Switch production to hermitage. MM it to get it in 3 turns.

920 AD Turn 156
Catherine's Golden Age has begun.

Chop is done -- MM Heritage next turn, no scientists for 1 turn to get Hermitage fast.

Ceasar has printing press and is willing to trade it to us.
He wants a ton for it so waiting at this time.

Alexander will talk to us BUT, he has enough on his hands already ........ currently he can't get to us though so.

940AD Turn 157
Culture now at +202 / turn.
Work has begun on Workboat. MM and have 5 scientists working.
Ernest Rutherford has been born in Nottingham

960AD Turn 158
Workboat done .. MM to 4 scientiest, Forge done next turn.
Culture is working .. silver is back up to 49% now also gained 1% on fish and iron.
Asoka can no research steel, meanwhile Tokugawa still hasn't learned how to tie his shoes.

Alexander likes Washington anduss the least .. he can't get to us though, but he like us the least.

980AD Turn 159
Hatshepsut ask for open borders .. declined, JC annoyed with her.
Production put on Grenedier.
We are at -1 food now with Forge complete. Will alternate starving + growing to be able to get most production / research and GPPs.
Nothing good for whales ATM, not trading this turn.

1000AD Turn 160
St Thomas Aquinas has been born in Rome.
Amir Khusro has been born in Paris.
Bah, trades suck -- trade Whales to Washington for 1 gpt.
No real changes in the tech race.
At this point Catherine has at least 3 Gallies.
BTW: We are at +12 now with Ceasar.
Frederick converts to Buddhism.

1010AD Turn 161
Grenadier complete, do not take any promotions. We can take when we figure out what is best.
Production set to Grenadier
Iron at 52% ATM ... will need about 4 - 6 more turns to get it back. Enough time for 2 more Grenadiers.

Michaelangelo has been born in Tenochtitlan.

Catherine is preparing to go to war against someone now.
So we have Monty, Catherine and Alex all getting ready to go to war.

1020AD Turn 162
Monty's Golden Age has begun.
Marie Curie has been born in London.

Freddrick is now just pleased with us at +5 ... I think we should cancel the defensive pact with him.
JC will now trade Theology, Printing Press, World Map and 200 gold for Chemistry, he will also convert to representation.
I take the deal and save 2 turns of research on printing press. I didn't want Theology but deal was too good to pass up.
We get a +1 due to civics. We are now at +13 with Ceasar.
Research set to Scientific Method.
Trade Paper to Alexander for 130g

1030AD Turn 163
Montezuma declares war on Hatsphut.
Catherine's golden age has ended.

We got our fish back!!!!
Iron should be in 2 - 3 turns.
New York is getting crushed -- down to pop3 now and only 48% American. We took another tile away from them.

1040AD Turn 164
We just got a Great Artist, embed in the city -- +24 Culture is really going to help.
2nd Grenadier done .. 3rd one due in 2 turns.

Nothing really decent on the trade front.
Louis Daguerre has been born in Susa
William Shakespeare has been born in Timbuktu
John Roebling has been born in Mecca
Memphis has been taken by the Aztec Empire.


Next turn be SURE to cancel the stone to fish with Catherine.
I have been thinking we should trade away our Marble and Stone for a few turns of some extra cash.
I believe we should cancel our Defensive pact with Fredrick.

1050AD Turn 165
Isabella want Guilds ... I give it to her .. everyone is Cautious or above with her except for Louis.
Iron is now at 50% .. we should have in like 2 turns I believe, or less with the increase in culture from the artist.

K I'm done, haven't made any more here except for giving away guilds. Isabella is now cautious BTW.

Edit: Turn Log added

Turn 155, 900 AD: Saladin adopts Free Market!
Turn 155, 900 AD: Catherine's Golden Age has begun!!!

Turn 156, 920 AD: You have constructed Hermitage in Beijing. Work has now begun on a Forge.
Turn 156, 920 AD: Frederick adopts Representation!
Turn 156, 920 AD: Ernest Rutherford has been born in Nottingham!
Turn 156, 920 AD: Tokugawa's Golden Age has ended...

Turn 157, 940 AD: You have trained a Work Boat in Beijing. Work has now begun on a Forge.
Turn 157, 940 AD: Louis XIV adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 158, 960 AD: Amir Khusro has been born in Paris!
Turn 158, 960 AD: Isabella adopts Bureaucracy!

Turn 159, 980 AD: St. Thomas Aquinas has been born in Rome!

Turn 160, 1000 AD: You have discovered Steel!
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Frederick converts to Buddhism!
Turn 160, 1000 AD: Michaelangelo has been born in Tenochtitlan!

Turn 161, 1010 AD: Montezuma's Golden Age has begun!!!
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Asoka adopts Representation!
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Marie Curie has been born in London!

Turn 162, 1020 AD: Julius Caesar adopts Representation!
Turn 162, 1020 AD: You have discovered Printing Press!
Turn 162, 1020 AD: You have discovered Theology!
Turn 162, 1020 AD: Montezuma has declared war on Hatshepsut!
Turn 162, 1020 AD: Catherine's Golden Age has ended...

Turn 163, 1030 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Washington, Julius Caesar, Hatshepsut, Elizabeth, Cyrus, Mansa Musa, Louis XIV
Turn 163, 1030 AD: Asoka has 3 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 163, 1030 AD: Cyrus has 120 gold available for trade
Turn 163, 1030 AD: Raphael has been born in Beijing!
Turn 163, 1030 AD: Niels Bohr has been born in Berlin!
Turn 163, 1030 AD: William T. G. Morton has been born in Memphis!
Turn 163, 1030 AD: Mansa Musa adopts Free Market!

Turn 164, 1040 AD: Deal Canceled: Gold Per Turn (1) to Julius Caesar
Turn 164, 1040 AD: Memphis has been captured by the Aztec Empire!!!
Turn 164, 1040 AD: Louis Daguerre has been born in Susa!
Turn 164, 1040 AD: William Shakespeare has been born in Timbuktu!
Turn 164, 1040 AD: John Roebling has been born in Mecca!
Turn 164, 1040 AD: Huayna Capac adopts Free Market!

Turn 165, 1050 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Julius Caesar, Elizabeth
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Louis XIV has 3 gold per turn available for trade

 

[classical_hero]

I am not too sure about trading Chem away so early.

 

[Yamps]

I'll look things closely later tonight and post plans. (When we win against Turkey. )

There are many things to comment.

First impressions are a bit disturbing:

Trading Chemistry so fast is risky, JC could start trading Chemistry to his friends now. Theology we didn't need at all. There is an "option care to negotiate" and we could have made the trade ourselves later anyway.

Why should we cancel the Defensive pact with Fred?! He will cancel it himself, he is only at pleased. This is bad, we should have sent the second missionary to his other city, we were overconfident. Cathy is going to attack us! This is very disturbing. And why did you give anything to Izzy? We are planning to attack her. Alex is planning a war too and gaining power. We should consider DP with Cyrus now. What does JC think about Cyrus? We have very good relations with JC, even if we get -1 because of Cyrus it's not a problem. If Cathy attacks us, she'll have to fight Cyrus too.

Quick roster reminder:

Marconos - just played
Yamps - UP! (swapped with Marconos)
Classical_hero - on deck!

 

[marconos]

The reason to give the item to Izzy was to pull her out of the annoyed state. Less likely to cause any issues for us. We PLAN to attack her 1st but I have seen many times where the one you plan to attack 1st quickly becomes the one you attack last.

Trading chemistry wasn't a big risk IMO. Our neighbors Elizabeth and Asoka already have it. Ceasar isn't trading with anyone when you look at who is friends are and what techs they have. By keeping his tech fairly close to ours it also reduces the chance of someone bribing him away from what we want. Protect the PA target IMO.

We can easily get a defensive pact with Cyrus but I caution against it. The world is going to war very soon. If we don't want to be dragged into it we need to have as few DP's as possible. Unless of course you believe that we are Cathy's target. If you believe that then it would be a good target. Cathy is either goiing after Us or Fredrick. IMO we don't want a DP with someone that may get attacked.

We need that Iron. I believe we have time if Cathy wants to declare war on us to make 2 Frigates and sink her entire Navy and be done with it. From my scouting she has 3 Galleons and like 4 caravals. She may just be waiting for steel to come though so she has frigates. If you truly believe that Cathy is coming after us a DP with Elizabeth would be a good idea as well.

 

[vra379971]

(When we win against Turkey. )

Best of luck there - and yes, I exist.

 

[Yamps]

(When we win against Turkey. )

Best of luck there - and yes, I exist.

119. 1:0 for us, 120. 1:1. We've lost on penalties after that.

Oh, well.

You didn't post for a long time, I wasn't sure you are still around. Send that Assets checker log, let's try to get you in the game. You should also try the HoF support, they respond fast. I had some questions myself, I played around with SGOTOM 5 mod lately and had odd Assets checker results. No save opening problems luckily

@Marconos

You have some interesting arguments, I have to think about it. I'm not convinced, but analysis will have to wait till tomorrow. I need some sleep and *cough* I'm not completely sober right now

Hoping to see some ideas in the morning when I wake up!

 

[marconos]

I do what I think is right but it's tempered by what you guys say. I have learned ALOT in this and look forward to learning more.

edit: to clarify it better

 

[kcd_swede]

Protect the PA target IMO.

We can easily get a defensive pact with Cyrus but I caution against it. The world is going to war very soon. If we don't want to be dragged into it we need to have as few DP's as possible.

I agree with this analysis. If someone attacked Cyrus, we would automatically declare war. As I understand it, our declaration of war would nullify the DP we have with others. That would set us back a lot.

Best to continue with the Gren building and watch Cathy's fleet. If it comes towards us we can re-evaluate DP with Cyrus. If it goes to Fred, we might want to cancel that DP even. But I think we will have PA before Cathy is ready to act against our continent, if we keep this strategy.

@Yamps: Sorry about Turkey... I only saw the penalty kick (very pathetic). But at least your team showed up for the match. We should have sent our women's team to play Russia... they at least play football. The good news is Euro2008 is no longer the distraction it once was.

@marconos: on the turnset. I wouldn't have bothered with Izzy's demands, but you may be right about having to save her for later, in which case it was a reasonable thing to do.

 

[classical_hero]

Just a word of warning, I am going to be busy for awhile, so I might not have time to play this until the weekend. It just depends on if we hire another worker soon, or if work slows down.

Here is a possible trade that I think is worthwhile looking at.

It would be good for us to try and get Rp, but I think that is too expensive right now.

Also have a look at the power graph and see the massive spikes that have occurred.

We need to revolt to free market and we should get more bonuses with Cyrus and eventually we might get to friendly with him.

 

[Yamps]

Okay, here we go. This was tough, I've spent a lot of time examining the save.

@Marconos

Helping Izzy still doesn't make sense to me, Izzy -> Toku is most probably the line of attack for us. Btw, that was a tribute demand, right? We can't tolerate such arrogant demands anymore!

Selling Paper to Alex, why did you do that? He was preparing for war, he hates us and our friends hate him. We were lucky not to get penalties, he probably almost researched Paper so it wasn't lopsided. Unnecessary risk.

Theology was not needed, WFYBTA still exists, we are going to trade as long as we can.

Chemistry selling was controversial. Asoka is the first one that will start trading it, giving Chemistry to JC encourages Asoka to trade it. His threshold is 20% according to iTechTradeKnownPercent. (When 20% civs have it, he will trade.) However,

By keeping his tech fairly close to ours it also reduces the chance of someone bribing him away from what we want. Protect the PA target IMO.

Wise observation! We also did get Printing press and he did adopt Representation.

Important note: I've discovered a possible misconception in the personality file regarding iNoTechTradeThreshold.

Vanilla file explanation:

The AI will only trade 'Monopoly' techs if their attitude towards the Civ is above this value.

However, Warlords and BTS files have completely different explanation for this, that's the WFYBTA base number, not attitude! This agrees with WFYBTA article by VoU.

For our game, we should assume that JC is now willing to trade Chemistry to his friend Capac.

I see you've almost re-built our old farm back. Well, I don't expect us to use it, but hopefully we should finish before a forest grows. Still, I'm canceling that. If a forest does grow, we can chop it down. (No more health from forests will happen in this game.)

I agree with you that DP with Fred needs to be canceled, I'll explain in detail why I think that.

@Yamps: Sorry about Turkey... I only saw the penalty kick (very pathetic). But at least your team showed up for the match. We should have sent our women's team to play Russia... they at least play football. The good news is Euro2008 is no longer the distraction it once was.

Yeah, those penalties were really terrible. Probably the equalizing goal Turkey scored in the last seconds came as a great shock to the penalty kickers. Your women against Russia, Yeah, Russia was really nasty in that game, they've really improved lately. Oh, well, life goes on. More time for civ.

Just a word of warning, I am going to be busy for awhile, so I might not have time to play this until the weekend. It just depends on if we hire another worker soon, or if work slows down.

Noted.

@Trade. JC has a lot of things. There is no need to trade for that with others, JC will provide for free when we sign PA.

@Power spikes are from Rifling and Chemistry. Disturbing, but we'll manage.

@Cyrus is important to us, but we can't get more bonuses with him by trades. Missionaries at some point would do the trick, that would bring him to friendly for sure.

@Free market yes, but I think we should wait a bit with that, maybe we will adopt Theocracy soon. Exact timing requires some thought.


I've worked things through, I'll post the analysis now. The post will be long.

 

[Yamps]

Situation analysis

Diplomacy

Monty and Hatty are at war. Cathy and Louis are preparing for war. Marconos, you didn't mention Louis. Alex is preparing for war, too.

Alex could attack Fred, he is annoyed at him. Fred is only pleased at us, he won't be willing to sign PA with us, DP with him has to go. Like Marconos said, Cathy could attack Fred too. Alex could attack Washington too.

It is possible to sign a DP with Washington, but because of Alex we won't. Besides, we are most likely going to culture raze New York soon. Btw, signing a DP with Liz isn't possible, she is only Pleased at us. Cyrus is one of the rare civs willing to sign a DP at Pleased. Cathy an Saladin could do it too. In fact, they are pleased towards each other and Saladin knows MT! Sal-Cathy pact and PA later would be very bad for us.

I expect Louis to attack Mansa Musa, Alex is probably going after Fred. I believe that Cathy is planning to dogpile on Hatty, but I really don't know what that girl will do. She could land anywhere. For example, she could land in India and move towards us. She will wait for steel and upgrade Caravels to Frigates. 2 Frigates Marconos suggested won't be enough for us to stop her. Besides, we have sea access on the other side of the continent, that's far away. She could even attack JC, they are very close. Carevel will spy Cathy, we must watch her closely.

We are putting everything into PA with JC. There are ~20 turns till that, a lot can happen in that time. For example, JC could adopt Free religion! That could cause grave problems, if he drops to Pleased, where are we then? Fred was plan B, it is disturbing to lose him.

Here are our options:

Cyrus. Look at the power graph, no one will touch Cyrus. No one hates him too, he is going to stay out of wars. Signing DP with Cyrus will keep us from harm. We need to get Cathy off our back, she could slow down our attacking plans. Sending Missionaries to Cyrus later on would bring Cyrus to friendly.

Fred Sending a missionary is the right thing to do. Izzy was diligent, she sent another missionary and Buddhism is dominant now.

Kublai We could use another friend, he will convert to Judaism for only 110 gold. He will get to friendly eventually, that will be good for trading.

Capac is almost friendly. Lopsided trading would make him friendly, we don't have good options now, but opportunities will arrive. He could be a good trading partner.

We have to keep our options open. Of course, anything but a PA with JC is a huge delay. However, DP right away with Cyrus as a backup plan is needed. We have enough enemies, we could use some friends for the trades and potential backup PA partners.

Enemy management:

Cathy is the biggest problem. She could attack anybody, but she hates us the most. Let's change that. We didn't sign Open borders with her because of Fred, we can do it now. One lopsided trade would bring her to cautious, missionaries are an option too. For now, only OB.

Alex Let's wait and see a bit who he attacks. We are going to fight him, sooner or later.

Saladin is a potential threat and he could sign a DP as we speak. Good thing I've paused the game. Wait and see tactic, there is nothing to do about that.

More to come...

 

[Yamps]

Resource trading.

We can get one more health!

I'll cancel the Stone deal with Cathy and buy Clam from Liz for Stone. That will bring back our Dear and provide 1 more.

Marble we should keep, Marble could hurry AI cathedrals.

Whales deal for 1 gold will be canceled too. I'll sell them to Capac for 2 gold. Not much, but we want Capac as a friend, resource suppling bonuses acumulate with time.

Research and trading

I see that Liz an Cathy have Scientific Method. Marconos, can you tell when that happened? They are probably rushing for Physics. Tech path is Sci Meth, Communism (~10 turns). After that Physics or Biology, depending on the AI. There is no immediate need for trading, JC has all the stuff available, we should get that in 20 turns when we sign PA.

City production

Grens, one missionary for Fred and cannons when we get the iron. Let's keep our options open, one missionary doesn't cost much. We should have done that before, it is very dangerous to have just one option.

Health will provide one more scientist, or one more miner. We are getting too many artists and Sci Meth will cancel scientific GPP from GL. However, we do want our stack of doom to be ready ASAP. Production also depends on diplomatic relations. If Cathy attack us, the attack on Izzy will be delayed.

Diplomatic summary

Cancel DP with Fred
OB with Cathy
Convert Kublai
DP with Cyrus - that's a critical decision. Everything we do or don't do is risky, I believe that this is good risk management. Cyrus is strong and liked by many, no one will touch us. Waiting is not a good option, we have to start accumulating backup DP turns ASAP.

Please examine things carefully, this is a critical position. I'm ready for play, I'll wait for 24h. I plan to play for ~15 turns, but I'll probably report sooner to inform you. We can expect some interesting development very soon.

 

[Melior Traiano]

I concur with Yamps on most everything. DP with Cyrus is a must at this point. No one will attack him, but he could be a big help if someone attacks us.

We should park the Caravel next to whichever city Cathy's navy is and check each turn to see if her ships have left port. We could use the early warning if she's up to something.

Also, we should check that Rome is adequately garrisoned. If Cathy somehow captures/razes Rome, we're in for a world of trouble. We can transfer some obsolete units to Caesar that he can upgrade to Grens, if necessary.

 

[marconos]

Cancelling with Fred --- great, I think Alex is going after him. He currently can't get to us as he doesn't have open border with Wasthington or England so I assumed he would be going after Fred, that's why I wanted to Cancel.

Louis preparing for war. That would have started on you 1st turn. I didn't check when I completed my run.

Can't tell when the got Sci Method as it didn't show up for trades until after we got printing press.